Claims vs. Beliefs

[ElishaElijah]

When he claimed right at the start that nonbelievers could not understand the magic book.. And yes, you found a verse that you could interpret to apply to yourself. So what? That is not an excuse for you to believe that your God is a liar. Something that you have admitted to many times. It is probably the opposite. True believers are those that will have the absolute worst interpretation of the Bible.

So you didn’t bother to look at the principles of biblical interpretation, but you say it’s wrong. Not a very intellectual approach.

 

[Subduction Zone]

He is correct if you read his reasons and the article why abiogenesis and evolution as far as natural selection like Darwin suggested isn’t possible. Why? Because many components of life need each other to work, in other words, if you start with a simple organism by itself it cannot work without another to complement it. Like he said it’s a mystery to scientist still.
The only possible explanation is God the Creator.
That’s what I’ve found so far, when looking at the information abiogenesis and evolution don’t hold up to scrutiny and in my opinion impossible.

No. All of his claims have been refuted. Go ahead. Try asking questions one at a time, quote a claim of his. It will be shown to be wrong. Did you watch the video that I provided? I am not claiming that it is "evidence" but it is educational. And I guarantee that video alone will refute Tour's claims. Have your article opened while you play it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So you didn’t bother to look at the principles of biblical interpretation, but you say it’s wrong. Not a very intellectual approach.

There was no need once he tipped his hand and showed how hopelessly biased he was. But once again, quote from the rather juvenile piece and see if his claims cannot be refuted.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe their is common design but no proof whatsoever of a human being coming from evolutionary natural causes. In other words human beings have always been human beings.

Here you have just demonstrated that all you have is mere belief. First off, the sciences do not deal with "proof". That is a terrible term to use and you lose the debate when you use it. Science relies on evidence. And one cannot honestly merely deny scientific evidence. Scientific evidence is well defined and it puts a burden of proof (and that means one must supply evidence of one's own) to refute it. So if I point to a fossil and explain to you how it is evidence for evolution you have to find a scientific reason for it not being evidence. Claiming a "common designer" is not evidence. It is merely a claim. In fact there is no scientific evidence for a common designer. It is why the idea is laughed at.

There are creationists that can do science. James Tour is one of them. But he cannot does not do any science when it comes t abiogenesis. All he has are false and easily refutable claims.

This is why you should try to learn the basics of science and scientific evidence. You would not be spouting very ignorant arguments. You might even find an argument that works.

 

[Sheldon]

He is correct if you read his reasons and the article why abiogenesis and evolution as far as natural selection like Darwin suggested isn’t possible. Why? Because many components of life need each other to work, in other words, if you start with a simple organism by itself it cannot work without another to complement it. Like he said it’s a mystery to scientist still.
The only possible explanation is God the Creator.
That’s what I’ve found so far, when looking at the information abiogenesis and evolution don’t hold up to scrutiny and in my opinion impossible.

Irreducible complexity is a tired old creationist canard, thoroughly debunked for many years. Had you bothered to actually read any of the talkoringins website I posted repeatedly, after you demanded evidence, then you would know this.

Abiogenesis has nothing to do with species evolution, and this has been explained several times now, so it's dishonest to keep misrepresenting it as such. That 9th commandment seems to be lost on many theists who claim to be Christians I must say.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Irreducible complexity is a tired old creationist canard, thoroughly debunked for many years. Had you bothered to actually read any of the talkoringins website I posted repeatedly, after you demanded evidence, then you would know this.

Abiogenesis has nothing to do with species evolution, and this has been explained several times now, so it's dishonest to keep misrepresenting it as such. That 9th commandment seems to be lost on many theists who claim to be Christians I must say.

Ironically his source, James Tour, admits that evolution happens. He also admits to not understanding it. A rare bit of honesty by Tour. So by trying to use Tour as a source he has indirectly admitted that evolution is a fact.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Abiogenesis has nothing to do with species evolution,

Notice I mentioned both but different although they go hand in hand. How many evolutionary trees are there? And there had to be a starting point abiogenesis, unless you want to start a different spot which is where?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Notice I mentioned both but different although they go hand in hand. How many evolutionary trees are there? And there had to be a starting point abiogenesis, unless you want to start a different spot which is where?

It is hard to say when the evolutionary tree started, but it would have been some time after abiogenesis.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
Abiogenesis has nothing to do with species evolution,

Notice I mentioned both but different although they go hand in hand.

No they don't "go hand in hand" at all, as has been explained, Species evolution explain the diversity of life and origins of species, it has nothing to do with the origins of life.

How many evolutionary trees are there?

I have no idea what that means.

And there had to be a starting point abiogenesis, unless you want to start a different spot which is where?

No one yet knows or understands how life started, but species evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life, only the origin of species.

 

[ElishaElijah]

evolution happens

I believe evolution happens, meaning changes within species. I believe in diversity within species for example dogs, plenty of variety but they’ve always been dogs not cats.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe evolution happens, meaning changes within species. I believe in diversity within species for example dogs, plenty of variety but they’ve always been dogs not cats.

Sorry that is not evolution. Nor is your second example. You just lost the debate by demonstrating that you cannot even add 2 + 2 and get 4.

You should learn the basics of science. You do not even have that. You came to a war with a pea shoorter when the other side is using BMG .50 caliber rifles. Who do you think would win in such a battle?

 

[ElishaElijah]

There was no need once he tipped his hand and showed how hopelessly biased he was. But once again, quote from the rather juvenile piece and see if his claims cannot be refuted.

So you don’t know the principles of biblical hermeneutics? Ok then since you claim to know the Bible better than most, what does the Bible teach on how a person can receive Eternal Life? Should be easy for you

 

[ElishaElijah]

Sorry that is not evolution. Nor is your second example. You just lost the debate by demonstrating that you cannot even add 2 + 2 and get 4.

You should learn the basics of science. You do not even have that. You came to a war with a pea shoorter when the other side is using BMG .50 caliber rifles. Who do you think would win in such a battle?

How can you say that doesn’t fit a definition of evolution?
Evolution
Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. These characteristics are the expressions of genes that are passed on from parent to offspring during reproduction. Different characteristics tend to exist within any given population as a result of mutation, genetic recombination and other sources of genetic variation. Evolution occurs when evolutionary processes such as natural selection and genetic drift act on this variation, resulting in certain characteristics becoming more common or rare within a population. The evolutionary pressures that determine whether a characteristic should be common or rare within a population constantly change, resulting in the change in heritable characteristics arising over successive generations. It is this process of evolution that has given rise to biodiversity at every level of biological organisation, including the levels of species, individual organisms and molecules.Wikipedia

 

[Subduction Zone]

So you don’t know the principles of biblical hermeneutics? Ok then since you claim to know the Bible better than most, what does the Bible teach on how a person can receive Eternal Life? Should be easy for you

If that is a supposed principle of hermeneutics then the whole process is worthless. It is not a pathway to the truth.

As to your question you are probably going to add a biased clause that is not in the Bible. And also, according to who? You will find different qualifications from different teachers in the Bible. You will probably cherry pick just one. But in John 3:3 Jesus says that one must be "born again". He goes on to explain more but aside from being baptized he is not clear. If you understood that the Bible does not present a unified , consistent picture of what Christianity is you would understand why there are 40,000 different sects of Christianity. The differences between any two of which can be very small or very large. The problem with hermeneutics is that it allows the ignorant to think that they are following the one true version of Christianity.. And they all appear to be terribly wrong.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How can you say that doesn’t fit a definition of evolution?
Evolution
Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. These characteristics are the expressions of genes that are passed on from parent to offspring during reproduction. Different characteristics tend to exist within any given population as a result of mutation, genetic recombination and other sources of genetic variation. Evolution occurs when evolutionary processes such as natural selection and genetic drift act on this variation, resulting in certain characteristics becoming more common or rare within a population. The evolutionary pressures that determine whether a characteristic should be common or rare within a population constantly change, resulting in the change in heritable characteristics arising over successive generations. It is this process of evolution that has given rise to biodiversity at every level of biological organisation, including the levels of species, individual organisms and molecules.Wikipedia

Because it goes against this phrase: "over successive generations."

 

[ElishaElijah]

If that is a supposed principle of hermeneutics then the whole process is worthless. It is not a pathway to the truth.

As to your question you are probably going to add a biased clause that is not in the Bible. And also, according to who? You will find different qualifications from different teachers in the Bible. You will probably cherry pick just one. But in John 3:3 Jesus says that one must be "born again". He goes on to explain more but aside from being baptized he is not clear. If you understood that the Bible does not present a unified , consistent picture of what Christianity is you would understand why there are 40,000 different sects of Christianity. The differences between any two of which can be very small or very large. The problem with hermeneutics is that it allows the ignorant to think that they are following the one true version of Christianity.. And they all appear to be terribly wrong.

Do you see a problem with your answer? You sound so confused with a simple question, the Bible is very clear on that question, it really wouldn’t matter if there were a million different sects, the Bible describes how a person receives eternal life so if a person has to be born again, as you correctly said, what does the Bible say on how a person is born again?

 

[Riders]

I am tired of being accused of making claims. I am not making any claims because I have nothing to claim since I am a nobody.

The Messengers of God made claims in their scriptures. The main things they claimed were that:

1) They were sent by God
2) That God communicated to them
3) That God exists

I believe their claims but I am making no claims since I have nothing to claim.

Atheists assert that I am making claims so they can say that I have the burden of proof, but I am making no claims just because I believe the claims of the Messengers of God, so I have no burden of proof.

The burden of proof rests on the person making the claim. The Messengers of God made the claims so they were responsible to meet the burden of proof. I believe that the true Messengers of God met their burden by providing evidence that supports their claims.

The evidence that supports the claims of any alleged Messenger of God is as follows:

1) Their Person (their character, as demonstrated by the life they led)
2) Their Revelation (the history, which is what they accomplished on their mission from God)
3) Their Words (the words that were attributed to them in scriptures, or what they wrote)

Anyone who wants to know if an alleged Messenger of God is a true Messenger of God is responsible to do their own research and look at the evidence that supports the claims of the alleged Messenger. I can point to where the evidence for Baha’u’llah resides but I am not responsible for doing other people’s homework.

According to my beliefs, God wants everyone to do their own homework and come to their own determinations because we are all responsible for our own beliefs. Baha’u’llah wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone else because we are each accountable to God for our own beliefs on Judgment Day.

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

All this makes logical sense if people could only remove their bias and think about what I just said. Of course, it would require atheists to think differently than they have always thought about claims and evidence and see another point of view that they had never considered.

Everything you said is true. However, this is a religious debate section so it's not a place to state your personal beliefs without making claims and proving your point. This is a place to debate.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Do you see a problem with your answer? You sound so confused with a simple question, the Bible is very clear on that question, it really wouldn’t matter if there were a million different sects, the Bible describes how a person receives eternal life so if a person has to be born again, as you correctly said, what does the Bible say on how a person is born again?

No. It is not clear. Once again, 40,000 Christian sects prove you wrong. If it was clear there would not be endless debates among Christians about what the Bible means. You only want to pretend that your version is the right one, and that is the failing of hermeneutics. It allows the relatively uneducated to think that they know more than the educated. And when it comes to the Bible I am not claiming to be among the educated, but I do know that there are many that know more than you do and would disagree strongly with you.

 

[CG Didymus]

If you read his story his fear that his faith is wrong is explained.

Former drug addict "saved" by the Lord sees the evils of his ways. He has a reasonable fear of relapse. Worse yet his cure is based upon a false faith rather than a true knowledge of how drugs ruled him. If his faith fails he could go back, though I do hope that he has learned enough to prevent that from happening.

I had Christian friends that fall away and others that "back slid" but came back to church and repented... then back slid again. They were very dependent on Jesus and the Bible being very literal. Back sliding was usually having something to do sex, drugs or alcohol. And to tie in Rock and Roll, I was going out with a Christian girl, lent her some records, and she hooked up with a really hardcore Christian guy. He told her those records were of the devil and they burnt them. 6 months later she was pregnant. Of course, they confessed their sin, got married, and all was well.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I had Christian friends that fall away and others that "back slid" but came back to church and repented... then back slid again. They were very dependent on Jesus and the Bible being very literal. Back sliding was usually having something to do sex, drugs or alcohol. And to tie in Rock and Roll, I was going out with a Christian girl, lent her some records, and she hooked up with a really hardcore Christian guy. He told her those records were of the devil and they burnt them. 6 months later she was pregnant. Of course, they confessed their sin, got married, and all was well.

Except for the records that you lent. Did she ever replace them? I am betting "No". And that is one thing that worries me about @ElishaElijah , I don't want to be the cause of his backsliding. Which is why emphasize that the fact that he is an evolved ape does not refute Christianity. There is no reason to despair just because part of one's beliefs have been shown to be wrong. (And there is no reason to despair if all of one's religious beliefs are shown to be wrong, that only shows that the person could get off drugs and stay off drugs on his or her own)