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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

Sheldon

Veteran Member
God never fails. People fail to rely on him however.
Kerching, another no true Scotsman fallacy.

Relying on yourself is a recipe for disaster.

For some perhaps, so they rely on a powerful delusion, of course what you can't deny is that it doesn't matter what that delusion is, since a far larger number of people use this method, and claim this same result, but for belief in very different deities and religions. The more often this is pointed out and either ignored or waved away, the more obvious it is you have no rational answer. Try using the devil to create a no true Scotsman fallacy, that seems popular.

Oh wait, if the devil is making people believe their lives have been changed for the better by believing in false deities and religions, that creates another problem?

I'm sure you will find a cogent rebuttal though, with this level of bias all things are possible.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
If he exists he fails constantly. He failed in the Garden of Eden myth, he failed in the Noah's Ark myth, that was probably his greatest failure You are lucky that it is a myth. He is an endless tale of fail.

“And don't tell me God works in mysterious ways," Yossarian continued, hurtling on over her objection. "There's nothing so mysterious about it. He's not working at all. He's playing. Or else He's forgotten all about us. That's the kind of God you people talk about - a country bumpkin, a clumsy, bungling, brainless, conceited, uncouth hayseed.”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

“When you consider the opportunity and power He had to really do a job, and then look at the stupid, ugly little mess He made of it instead, His sheer incompetence is almost staggering.”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

I recommend that book to anyone.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
If he exists he fails constantly. He failed in the Garden of Eden myth, he failed in the Noah's Ark myth, that was probably his greatest failure You are lucky that it is a myth. He is an endless tale of fail.
Sounds like success to me:

Failing again and again, and being forced (so much for omnipotence and omniscience) to resort to endless barbarity cruelty, and even indiscriminate global genocide is success to you? I'd hate to see what you consider a fail.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
Arguments about the rationality of belief in God mostly boil down to this:

(1) Faith in God requires evidence.

(2) No such evidence exists (skeptics claim).

(3) Therefore, belief in God is not rational, they say.


There is evidence of God. Christians believe God reveals Himself through His deeds – like, for example, the created universe.

Paul says in Romans 1, 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Arguments about the rationality of belief in God mostly boil down to this:

(1) Faith in God requires evidence.

(2) No such evidence exists (skeptics claim).

(3) Therefore, belief in God is not rational, they say.


There is evidence of God. Christians believe God reveals Himself through His deeds – like, for example, the created universe.

Paul says in Romans 1, 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”
No so wrong. Fractally wrong.

You first claim was 100% wrong. Faith is a belief without evidence. If we have evidence we don't need faith.

As a result everything after that is garbage. The problem is that faith is not a pathway to the truth.
 
Faith is a belief without evidence. If we have evidence we don't need faith.
This is only half true:
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:1, 3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So by faith when I walk around and live in this world I perceive God created all I see, I wasn’t there at Creation but I have an internal sense He did and want to know Him. This faith causes me to seek God and when I did He answered and delivered me, He gave me His Spirit, so now I do know Him and don’t need faith for that anymore because I received something already from God. What I haven’t received yet is life with God in Heaven because I’m down here on Earth. This takes faith, I only received part of my inheritance.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"No number of scientists in the world can ever prove that the stars are far away, or that the Higg’s Boson exists — or even that the Earth is round (but shh, don’t tell the Flat Earthers that!) Nobody can prove that things will always fall down when you drop them. Nobody can prove that energy is conserved."

Those are all confirmed facts.

Believers frequently indulge in a kind of radical skepticism, but only for empirically derived knowledge. Nothing can be known (except God).

But that's just not how life is. We don't get or need the certitude of mathematical proof to accumulate accurate and reliable information about how the world works. And that we can't have that last infinitesimal of certitude that separates correct beyond a reasonable doubt and mathematically certain is irrelevant to how we understand and navigate the world, and irrelevant to whether we should believe gods exist, which I presume is the reason apologists resort to this argument. Somehow, they hope, if they can undermine the fruits of critical thought by calling them unproven, this will somehow make the insufficiently evidenced belief in deities more tenable.

But it doesn't, because any argument about distrusting the output of reason applied to the evidence of the senses applies tenfold to arguments based in faith. In other words, one can't call the demonstrably correct knowledge gleaned by rigorous thought "just a theory," "not proven," "subjective belief," etc., then throw offer the output of soft thinking as an alternative, for which all of those phrases apply orders of magnitude more.

Yes and the computer you are using is also just the result of blind chance, I suppose. The world is billions of times more complex than your computer.

Complexity is not a proxy for intelligence. Blind nature routinely assembles very complex entities.

One way to tell the difference between what nature has created and what only intelligence like mans can create is that nature has the means to build galaxies, solar systems, and living creatures without intelligent oversight, but computers do not. One can observe a human being being assembled in a womb with no intelligent oversight. The various elements involved - ribonucleic acids, enzymes, nucleotides, lipid membranes, etc. - can all be made automatically, and an organism will be assembled.

There is nothing analogous for computers. Blind physical forces never assemble computers without an intelligence directing them. Arguing against the one by citing the other doesn't hold water.

One thing that always struck me about the watchmaker argument for divine creation is how the author failed to note that his character wanders past countless natural structures in a heath until he comes upon a watch, and recognizes that it had a designer and creator. If the argument is that everything else he walked past unnoticed was also from a designer, why did he not offer those shrubs as evidence rather that the watch? Answer: He understood intuitively that they are radically different kinds of things. He knows his audience will also recognize that the watch cannot be natural, but not think that about the remainder of the surroundings.

I've seen too many people changed by God himself to ever believe we can do it on our own.

Does that make sense to you? One example of a person changed without a god belief falsifies your position.

God never fails.

The Old Testament god fails in the first book of the Bible, more than once.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
No so wrong. Fractally wrong.

You first claim was 100% wrong.

That's what skeptics say, not me. So, tell them that.

Fractally wrong.

What? a fractal is a term used to describe geometric shapes containing detailed structure at arbitrarily small scales, usually having a fractal.

Faith is a belief without evidence.

You do not understand what faith is. One cannot have faith in a person, for example, without first knowing that person. One's faith is based on prior knowledge.

If we have evidence we don't need faith.

Think about what you say first. Faith is not the opposite of evidence. One has faith BECAUSE OF the evidence. One has faith in something because the evidence tells you that thing can be trusted. When you have faith in a car, for example, you have prior knowledge that it is a good car.

Belief is not independent of reason.

My presupposition is that God exists and that He created the universe. Please falsify my presupposition.

If you try to tell me that only things that had been proven exist then you are on thin ice.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
The problem is that faith is not a pathway to the truth.

Who said it is. Who said anyone thinks the Bible is true because they believe in it?

You are criticising your own strawman.

I believe in and trust God because of the evidence. God has proven Himself over and over to be trustworthy. I cannot deny the evidence. To deny facts is ludicrous.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
I said "Faith in God requires evidence."

You replied:

You first claim was 100% wrong.

Really? Do you really have faith in things or persons you have no knowledge of?

I tell you this, I do not trust things or people I do not know. I want evidence and proof. And when I see positive proof I accept it. For example, there are only two biological genders. The scientific proof is undeniable and I accept that. Lo and behold, Scripture makes the same claim.

Know this, God revealed Himself in many ways in history. That had been documented. I accept the proof. I have solid reasons to believe in God. My faith is rational.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Arguments about the rationality of belief in God mostly boil down to this:

(1) Faith in God requires evidence.
Nope. "Faith" is "belief without evidence", by definition.

Perhaps you mean that claims of god's existence require evidence to be taken seriously.

(2) No such evidence exists (skeptics claim).
It is not a claim. No such evidence exists.
(Note: things like "just look at the world around us" or "I have felt his presence" are not "evidence")

(3) Therefore, belief in God is not rational, they say.
Not necessarily. We know how powerful and long-lasting childhood indoctrination can be. Aristotle said "Give me the boy until he is seven, and I will show you the man". So, the act of an individual believing in a god they have ben raised to believe in is not necessarily irrational.

There is evidence of God. Christians believe God reveals Himself through His deeds – like, for example, the created universe.
That is not "evidence". That is a "claim".

Paul says in Romans 1, 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”
And Eistein said... "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
So where does that leave us?
Paul or Einstein?
Eistein or Paul?
You pays your money and you takes your choice.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I said "Faith in God requires evidence."

You replied:



Really? Do you really have faith in things or persons you have no knowledge of?

I tell you this, I do not trust things or people I do not know. I want evidence and proof. And when I see positive proof I accept it. For example, there are only two biological genders. The scientific proof is undeniable and I accept that. Lo and behold, Scripture makes the same claim.

Know this, God revealed Himself in many ways in history. That had been documented. I accept the proof. I have solid reasons to believe in God. My faith is rational.
Most people believe in a god because they were raised to believe in it. That is all.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
Nope. "Faith" is "belief without evidence", by definition.

Another person who builds a strawman to criticise. You concoct your own definition and then make fun of it.

Definition of faith

1 : strong belief or trust I have faith in our leaders. 2 : belief in God. 3 : a system of religious beliefs : religion people of all faiths. 4 : loyalty to duty or to a person or thing The team's true fans keep the faith.

That is not "evidence". That is a "claim".

Please substantiate your statement. I'm not the one denying the facts.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Faith is a belief without evidence. If we have evidence we don't need faith.

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.”

Isn't that a statement that faith is nothing but hope? And what is the substance of hope? Nothing but a statement of preference.

Also, it's incorrect. Faith is insufficiently evidenced belief, nothing more or less. We believe things by one of two methods: compelling evidence properly understood (critical thinking), and belief without this. The latter is faith

And evidence of things not seen? That's an incoherent idea. It's not evidence if it isn't evident. The mind receives messages from the physical world. These are evidence when the senses and the mind apprehends them. Evidence of what is a different matter, and requires one be facile in reasoning to arrive at sound conclusions after considering what has become evident.

The Old Testament god fails in the first book of the Bible, more than once.

How is that? I see mankind failing, then God fixing what mankind messed up.

You've accepted by faith that a perfect, loving God exists, and so you see nothing else from this god. Other have mentioned the Garden and Flood stories. No unbeliever considers the deity in those stories blameless, but every unbeliever does. That's the evidence of a faith-based confirmation bias. Only those wearing it see a blameless god, because they assume it before examining the evidence. Even if you can't see past that, perhaps you can notice this dichotomy and try to account for it as I have. Why do all of these people outside of Christianity disagree with the understanding of believers, people you assume are wrong?

Everything hinges on how one processes evidence. Does he use it to derive sound conclusions, or does he use it to confirm his faith-based beliefs?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's what skeptics say, not me ["Faith in God requires evidence"]. So, tell them that.

That's not what skeptics typically say. They say that belief requires (compelling) evidence, not faith. As I just did, most of us say that faith not only doesn't require evidence, it dies when supporting evidence is produced and dispassionately considered, after which belief is evidence based.

You do not understand what faith is. One cannot have faith in a person, for example, without first knowing that person. One's faith is based on prior knowledge.

There is more than one word spelled and pronounced "faith." You're describing justified belief and calling it faith, as when people say that they have faith that their car will probably start the next time they turn it over just like the last 200 times they tried it. This is evidence-based, justified belief. Once I get to know somebody, I have evidence of their character, and belief that somebody can be trusted or not is now evidence based.

And some people do have faith in people they don't have reason to trust yet. That's a different word, which means unjustified belief. It's a logical fallacy (equivocation) to treat these two words as the same word just because they look and sound alike, just as it would be a mistake to consider two girls named Faith to be the same person because they have the same name.

I understand that believes have been taught that faith is a virtue and admire it in others. They treat it like courage or reliability, which are actual virtues. But faith is not a virtue. It's the willingness t believe without sufficient evidence. The critical thinker calls that an error, not a virtue. Faith generates a non sequitur every time - an idea not derivable from what preceded it. How can it be a virtue to believe by faith when the opposite of what one believes by faith can just as easily be believed this way?

My presupposition is that God exists and that He created the universe. Please falsify my presupposition.

There is no need to falsify your presuppositions. They're faith-based beliefs, insufficiently evidenced guesses.

If you try to tell me that only things that had been proven exist then you are on thin ice.

Once again, I think that you are misunderstanding the skeptic. He doesn't say that "only things that ha[ve] been proven exist." He says that only things that have been demonstrated to exist should be believed to exist, including deities. There is no burden of disproof for the skeptic. Such ideas should be rejected for their insufficient evidentiary support. That isn't a declaration that those ideas are incorrect, just that there is insufficient reason to believe them until it is demonstrated that they are.
 
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