There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[We Never Know]

And here is one on how the universe has been measured to be Flat:

What shape is the universe?

And many think earth is flat. That doesn't make it so.

What they thought 2000 years ago was thought to be right.

We advanced and said that stone age crap was was wrong. What we think today is thought to be right and we will advance more.

What will be thought in 2000 more years will be thought to be right and we again will say that crap 2000 years ago was wrong.

 

[Subduction Zone]

From your link.... "Its probably zero.

So otherwise we aren't sure.

Any measurement has an error bar to it. Oh wait, you are talking about the first article. You jumped the gun a bit. I told you that they measured it and was looking for articles.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And many think earth is flat. That doesn't make it so.

What they thought 2000 years ago was thought to be right.

We advanced and said that stone age crap was was wrong. What we think today is thought to be right and we will advance more.

What will be thought in 2000 more years will be thought to be right and we again will say that crap 2000 years ago was wrong.

But once again it has been measured. And it does not mean "flat" in the same sense.

 

[We Never Know]

Any measurement has an error bar to it. Oh wait, you are talking about the first article. You jumped the gun a bit. I told you that they measured it and was looking for articles.

"the first article"

You only post one about energy.... So yeah it would be the fist one lol

 

[We Never Know]

But once again it has been measured. And it does not mean "flat" in the same sense.

There's that "we have measured what we don't know or can't see" again. But hey its all good thought.
But don't try tell me we know whats at the edge(so to speak) of the universe that is roughly 92 billion light years away and its all.good.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There's that we have measured what we don't know or can't see" again. But hey its all good thought.

We do not need to have seen it since we are talking about the total energy of the universe. If it is mass then E = mc^2 whether regular matter or dark matter. and dark energy is still energy. It will all have a gravitational effect and that will affect the shape of the universe. A "flat" universe is one with a total energy of zero. How do they measure that precisely? Don't ask me. @Polymath257 would understand far better. I only know what has been done, but not how they did it.

 

[We Never Know]

We do not need to have seen it since we are talking about the total energy of the universe. If it is energy then E = mc^2 whether regular matter or dark matter. and dark energy is still energy. It will all have a gravitational effect and that will affect the shape of the universe. A "flat" universe is one with a total energy of zero. How do they measure that precisely? Don't ask me. @Polymath257 would understand far better. I only know what has been done, but not how they did it.

Just don't try tell me we know whats at the edge(so to speak) of the universe that is roughly 92 billion light years away and its all.good.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just don't try tell me we know whats at the edge(so to speak) of the universe that is roughly 92 billion light years away and its all.good.

What edge? The universe may not have an edge. For details go to a more learned source. And your figure is for the absolute minimum size of the universe. It is thought to be many times that size. but that is as far as we can estimate right now.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Come on, you can do better than that. A dodge like that is the same as you admitting that you are wrong.

Wrong about what? Science answer is as funny as yours would be.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Wrong about what? Science answer is as funny as yours would be.

An inability to understand does not make something funny.

 

[Subduction Zone]

@ElishaElijah , the Genesis and Noah's Ark myths are two different stories where an atheist can understand the Bible better than a literalistic Christian. From a Christian perspective the stories are not about how the Earth was made but rather why man needs a savior. Man is imperfect, that is the bottom line. The Noah's Ark myth is more about keeping one's faith in the most trying of times. It is not about a magic boat. That is there merely to keep the kiddies interest. If one takes those stories literally God is both evil and incompetent. There is no excuse for his behavior if you try to claim that it is history.

And luckily all of the scientific evidence in the world refutes those stories again and again. Refuting those stories does not refute Christianity, it refutes a very warped type of Christianity.

 

[samtonga43]

Anything believed without sufficient evidentiary support must be believed by faith, which is guessing. People believe that their holy books are divinely inspired without sufficient evidence that they are. They're guessing.

Do you have sufficient evidentiary support for the statement above? If not, it’s a guess, according to the statement itself.

Think about it; the very thought you have, “I don’t believe anything that’s not physical” is itself not physical.”

 

[joelr]

The natural laws were put in place by a wise Creator and law maker. That’s what I see. I don’t think it’s possible for laws to make themselves.

Really because physicists are fairly certain that the early universe before expansion has only one unified law. As it expanded the laws emerged naturally. The laws are just descriptions of patterns that can be predicted and quantified. These may have evolved or there may be a multiverse were infinite amounts of different expressions of spacetime and energy are expressed? Early humans were certain that a deity caused lightning, rain, turned the sun and moon, caused disease and famine and healed people from disease that killed others. Among many other things. They were not correct, those are natural events. The laws of physics may also fall into that group. Nature itself is a creative force. The need to make the creative force something other than nature seems like a need to have a conscious deity who also answers prayer and knows you personally rather than something based on evidence.
The God of the gap argument is now placed at the big bang and is likely no different than ancient people thinking Satan caused mental illness.

I have never heard a physicist, cosmologist or astrophysicist say it isn't possible for a law to make themselves?

 

[joelr]

This is only half true:
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:1, 3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So by faith when I walk around and live in this world I perceive God created all I see, I wasn’t there at Creation but I have an internal sense He did and want to know Him. This faith causes me to seek God and when I did He answered and delivered me, He gave me His Spirit, so now I do know Him and don’t need faith for that anymore because I received something already from God. What I haven’t received yet is life with God in Heaven because I’m down here on Earth. This takes faith, I only received part of my inheritance.

And Muslims do the same with Allah and Hindu the same with Krishna. If their faith is the same yet the religion is not true, this demonstrates faith is not a reliable path to truth. Racists, dictators and warlords can also have faith they are doing the right thing for their God or people. All these other religions have an internal sense their God created the universe. This is more likely to be psychology than awareness of an actual God.
I have heard many stories of Hindu and Muslims receiving internal confirmation from their God as well. This is your mind telling you what you want to hear.

"The Declaration of Faith (shahada): The first act of worship is the declaration that "There is no deity except God and Muhammad is the messenger of God." Muslims repeat this statement many times a day during their prayers. If someone wants to become a Muslim, he or she makes this profession of faith as an entry into Islam."
The Six Articles of Faith

1. Belief in the existence and oneness of God.
2. Belief in the existence of angels.
3. Belief in the existence of the books of which God is the author: the Quran (revealed to Muhammad), the Gospel (revealed to Jesus), the Torah (revealed to Moses), and Psalms (revealed to David).
4. Belief in the existence of Prophets: Muhammad being the last of them, Jesus the penultimate, and others sent before them [like Moses, Abraham, David, Joseph, Jacob].
5. Belief in the existence of the Day of Judgment: in that day, humanity will be divided into two groups: that of paradise and that of hell. These groups are themselves composed of subgroups.
6. Belief in the existence of God's predestination due to God's omniscience, whether it involves good or bad.

Keep in mind, Islam says the Jews and Christians have screwed up Gods message completely, are cursed, lie and they are here to fix it. They know this is true by faith.


The Need For Faith
Faith is vital for the discharge of devotional service. In Bhagavad-gita (9.3) Krishna says, “Those who are not faithful in this devotional service cannot attain Me, O conqueror of enemies. Therefore they return to the path of birth and death in this material world.” Srila Prabhupada writes in his purport that without faith we cannot attain Krishna. Faith, he says, is developed by associating with devotees. Without such association, we cannot become fully faithful.

There are three degrees of faith. The lowest type gives only enough faith to bring us into the association of devotees but is not based strongly enough on scriptural knowledge or belief in the truth of scripture to keep us there. The second type is firmer, and although we may not be conversant in scripture, we believe in the truth taught there. A devotee with the highest type of faith has firm conviction as well as firm knowledge of the scriptures.

When we as aspiring devotees consider the question of faith, we often assume we already possess it. After all, we are faithfully prosecuting our sadhana, our regulated spiritual practices. But faith is a live issue. It is not some- thing that once achieved remains vibrant without further thought. That is especially true for those of us who grew up in an environment of skepticism and were taught to challenge faith.

Therefore, we should understand both what faith is and what our own faith is. Besides the three types of faith listed above, the scriptures define faith as initial (shraddha) and fixed (nishtha).
The dictionary defines faith as “unquestioning belief in God; unquestioning belief that does not require proof or evidence.” Faith is trust in God—in His actions and promises. This is the kind of faith required for a devotee. Although we can provide scriptural evidence to support our Krishna conscious conclusions about the nature of the soul, the nature of God, transmigration, and so on, we have little empirical proof that any of it is true. Somehow or other, however, we have become willing to accept the authority of guru and scripture on faith, and we have molded our life’s principles around their teachings.

Prabhupada’s Empowered Faith

If we examine Srila Prabhupada’s life and preaching, we can see how empowered he was both in his own faith and in his ability to create faith in others. It is remarkable how he was able to convince the hedonistic youth of New York City to chant Hare Krishna and to accept the form of Krishna as the topmost expression of Godhead. After Prabhupada’s first public

 

[joelr]

What information do you have about that? I have this:
How Did We Get the Bible - Lifeway

No that article is sketchy. It is true the modern canon was assembled in 367 AD. They didn't mention that there were 38 other gospels. The canon was not "considered authoritative relatively quickly".
For an entire century and 1/2 Christian sects argued among each other as to who the heretics were. The Bishops wanted a format hat gave only them power to read, interpret and teach scripture. Elaine Pagels covers this in The Lost Gospels.
The entire 2nd century (ante-Nicene-Period) had sects that thought the OT God was not the God of the NT, Jesus was only a spirit, Jesus was just a man....


These various interpretations were called heresies by the leaders of the proto-orthodox church, but many were very popular and had large followings. Part of the unifying trend in proto-orthodoxy was an increasingly harsh anti-Judaism and rejection of Judaizers. Some of the major movements were:

• Gnosticism – second to fourth centuries – reliance on revealed knowledge from an unknowable God, a distinct divinity from the Demiurge who created and oversees the material world. The Gnostics claimed to have received secret teachings (gnosis) from Jesus via other apostles which were not publicly known, or in the case of Valentinius from Paul the Apostle. Gnosticism is predicated on the existence of such hidden knowledge, but brief references to private teachings of Jesus have also survived in the canonic scripture (Mark 4:11) as did warning by the Christ that there would be false prophets or false teachers. Irenaeus' opponents also claimed that the wellsprings of divine inspiration were not dried up, which is the doctrine of continuing revelation.[citation needed]
• Marcionism – second century – the God of Jesus was a different God from the God of the Old Testament.
• Montanism – second century – a pentecostal movement initiated by Montanus and his female disciples, featuring prophetic continuing revelations from the Holy Spirit.
• Adoptionism – second century – Jesus was not born the Son of God, but was adopted at his baptism, resurrection or ascension.
• Docetism – second to third century – Jesus was pure spirit and his physical form an illusion.
• Sabellianism – third century – the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three modes of the one God and not the three separate persons of the Trinity.
• Arianism – third to fourth century – Jesus, while not merely mortal, was not eternally divine and was of some lesser status than God the Father.[note 1]

In the middle of the second century, the Christian communities of Rome, for example, were divided between followers of Marcion, Montanism, and the gnostic teachings of Valentinus.


As to revelations that is just Apocalyptic Literature and started with the Persians. Apocalypticism - Wikipedia
"Arising initially in Zoroastrianism, apocalypticism was developed more fully in Judaic, Christian, and Islamic eschatological speculation.["
The Persian religion was Zoroastrianism. Their myths had the first version of a great battle on Earth between good and evil, God/devil and monsters, lakes of fire and such would kill everyone except the followers of the religion. They would be resurrected into a new body and live in paradise forever.
Later this was borrowed for writing Revelation.
The Persian myths date to 1600B.C. Mary Boyce is the expert scholar.

Revelations


but Zoroaster taught that the blessed must wait for this culmination till Frashegird and the 'future body' (Pahlavi 'tan i pasen'), when the earth will give up the bones of the dead (Y 30.7). This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked, both those who have lived until that time and those who have been judged already. Then Airyaman, Yazata of friendship and healing, together with Atar, Fire, will melt all the metal in the mountains, and this will flow in a glowing river over the earth. All mankind must pass through this river, and, as it is said in a Pahlavi text, 'for him who is righteous it will seem like warm milk, and for him who is wicked, it will seem as if he is walking in the • flesh through molten metal' (GBd XXXIV. r 8-r 9). In this great apocalyptic vision Zoroaster perhaps fused, unconsciously, tales of volcanic eruptions and streams of burning lava with his own experience of Iranian ordeals by molten metal; and according to his stern original teaching, strict justice will prevail then, as at each individual j udgment on earth by a fiery ordeal. So at this last ordeal of all the wicked will suffer a second death, and will perish off the face of the earth. The Daevas and legions of darkness will already have been annihilated in a last great battle with the Yazatas; and the river of metal will flow down into hell, slaying Angra Mainyu and burning up the last vestige of wickedness in the universe.

Ahura Mazda and the six Amesha Spentas will then solemnize a lt, spiritual yasna, offering up the last sacrifice (after which death wW be no more), and making a preparation of the mystical 'white haoma', which will confer immortality on the resurrected bodies of all the blessed, who will partake of it. Thereafter men will beome like the Immortals themselves, of one thought, word and deed, unaging, free from sickness, without corruption, forever joyful in the kingdom of God upon earth. For it is in this familiar and beloved world, restored to its original perfection, that, according to Zoroaster, eternity will be passed in bliss, and not in a remote insubstantial Paradise. So the time of Separation is a renewal of the time of Creation, except that no return is prophesied to the original uniqueness of living things. Mountain and valley will give place once more to level plain; but whereas in the beginning there was one plant, one animal, one man, the rich variety and number that have since issued from these will remain forever. Similarly the many divinities who were brought into being by Ahura Mazda will continue to have their separate existences. There is no prophecy of their re-absorption into the Godhead. As a Pahlavi text puts it, after Frashegird 'Ohrmaid and the Amahraspands and all Yazads and men will be together. .. ; every place will resemble a garden in spring, in which

there are all kinds of trees and flowers ... and it will be entirely the creation of Ohrrnazd' (Pahl.Riv.Dd. XLVIII, 99, lOO, l07).


Zoroastrians-Their-Religious-Beliefs-and-Practices-MaryBoyce


I should add the Persian God Ahura Mazda also had another familiar attribute we now hear about Yahweh - uncreated, eternal, creator of all that is good...?
"
God

t Zoroaster went much further, and in a startling departure from accepted beliefs proclaimed Ahura Mazda to be the one uncreated God, existing eternally, and Creator of all else that is good, including all other beneficent divinities.

 

[Polymath257]

Just don't try tell me we know whats at the edge(so to speak) of the universe that is roughly 92 billion light years away and its all.good.

Several misunderstandings here.

1. Edge of the *observable* universe. This is just the part of the universe from which we can get information. Since the speed of light is finite and the universe is only finitely old (at least since the beginning of the expansion), there is a limited distance we can see out.

2. That edge is growing at the speed of light (since it is how far light has traveled that determines that edge).

3. What we see now is how things were when light started out from whatever we are looking at. So, what we see now is how it was billions of years in the past, not right now.

4. Whatever we are looking at continued to move away because of the expansion in the time since the light left, so it is farther away now than it was then. So the thing we can see now, had its light start out, say, 10 billion years ago, but is NOW about 30 billion light years away from us.

5. The distance to that farther thing we have evidence about is now about 47 billion light years, not 92 billion. he 92-94 billion figure is the distance across.

So, to summarize, what we see now is information from the past (because light takes time to travel), but the universe has continued to expand, so what we see is currently much farther away than it was when the light started out.

 

[Polymath257]

What edge? The universe may not have an edge. For details go to a more learned source. And your figure is for the absolute minimum size of the universe. It is thought to be many times that size. but that is as far as we can estimate right now.

The figure he gave was a misunderstanding of the distance to the edge of the *observable* universe.

We understand that is a very small part of the total universe.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I have never heard a physicist, cosmologist or astrophysicist say it isn't possible for a law to make themselves?

If a person rejects God what other choice do they have? But know this for certain, if there is a car there is a plan, manufacturer, an engineer. A purpose for the vehicle and also a common design for things that work well, the wheel, the engine etc. Bike, wheel barrow, motorcycle etc.
Life is like this in the world we live in, this is universally understood.
We have building codes, structural principles that we use that are universal. Yet when it comes to spiritual things and Creation all this is thrown out the window by some people.

 

[joelr]

If I didn’t believe there was a God I would’ve never called out to Him for help. When I called if He didn’t answer and do something for me I wouldn’t be here saying He did. Not sure what would’ve become of me, hopeless, jail, dead, living on the streets. But no, in my right mind, successful, a family, full of hope, peace, purpose and know where I’m heading.

That is confirmation bias. In the U.S. there are 2 million people in jail, 2.8 million die annually, 1/2 million people are homeless. Do you think some or most of those people asked God for help? Never mind the 7 million children who die every year under the age of 7. Do you think all of their relatives are not praying all day?
People who do end up going through those things sometimes don't make it but others use it as a point to grow from and end up with good lives anyways. Some may blame a God for help, others don't.
Some people say going to jail for a time was the best thing to happen because it got them on the right track.
Stuff happens. None of this suggests a God. A God that helps people here and there while leaving millions of very sick children in hospitals? This is all likely confirmation bias.

Prayer studies have actually been done. It doesn't work.

The results showed that prayers had no beneficial effect on patients' recovery 30 days after surgery. Overall, 59% of patients who knew they were being prayed for had complications, compared to 51% of the patients who did not receive prayers. The difference was not considered statistically significant.
Largest Study of Prayer to Date Finds It Has No Power to Heal

Largest Study of Prayer to Date Finds It Has No Power to Heal.

The question is did a God show up and perform miracles fro you or did things just happen to work out? Because many times things actually work out. Especially when a person thinks Allah, Krishna or whomever God is helping. That is a powerful emotional tool. And there are stories of Krishna helping people yet we know he is not real.


"
“He is the reason I stood up on my own feet. When no one was there, he was. He helped me to love myself and to heal my wounds.

People with desires, bad phases, and a state of sorrows will once again become happy if they understand Krishna’s Consciousness.

To act with Krishna’s Consciousness is to free the s"

Will Krishna save me from any situation?
Yes, why not?

Krishna is the best friend for anyone, you just have to love him and surrender to him completely. If you Surrender to his beautiful divine Lotus Feet and have unbreakable trust and faith in him then he will! Just spend as much as time with him as possible, generate a personal bond with him, surrender, and most importantly, LOVE him selflessly. Then you will get the best savior in the world and no one can do anything to you!!!
https://www.quora.com/Will-Krishna-save-me-from-any-situation

 

[ElishaElijah]

And Muslims do the same with Allah and Hindu the same with Krishna. If their faith is the same yet the religion is not true, this demonstrates faith is not a reliable path to truth.

Jesus said “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me.”
This is the same Jesus I have come to know, He gave me His Spirit and I’ve been born again.
He rose from the dead to prove that He is the One True God. No one can receive the Holy Spirit any other way.