Is Underage Marriage Allowed in Islam?

[KWED]

No, it will not be ok today

The principle of the timeless, infallible and universal guide/example would suggest otherwise.

In Islam, there is something called a social norm.

No were isn't. Islamic laws or morality are not culturally or historically relative.

It is totally fine if something that was socially acceptable back then is no acceptable today

Where does it say that in the Quran or Sunnah?

unless it is something specific like drinking alcohol, eating pork,.....etc.

Ah. So things that are specifically permitted or forbidden still stand. So crucifixion, dismemberment, flogging for unmarried consensual adult sex. Slavery. Using female captives for slaves. Those are all acceptable today.
Yikes!

When it comes to the age of marriage, nothing was specified.

Exactly! As no age was specified you can only go on interpretations. Although A specific age is mentioned for Muhammad's marriage to Aisha - 6. And as he is the perfect role model for all Muslims, then 6 must be an acceptable age. Obviously it is not compulsory, but it is not forbidden.

Your argument fails here LOL

Yeah, that didn't really work out, did it?

Don't tell me where I am going with this because I didn't make the point
Revolutionary Wars! that was in 1977 right
But, how about today in 2022?

TBH, I'm getting fed up with having to explain how analogies work to people.
And you brought up the age of leaders in battle in the US. Just read it through again a few times, and really try to think about it.

However, I never said the Delaware age of marriage was right or wrong. I never said because they are doing it, we can do it too. You seem to be jumping to conclusions.

So why did you bring it up?

My point with that was, the age of marriage constantly changed during the centuries, for each time has its own moral values, we don't have the right to tell them you were wrong because we were not there, and we don't really know what happened, or how people lived

I agree. And have already said as much, but you don't seem to be able to understand the key difference.
None of the people involved in any of that are revered by Muslims as the perfect moral and practical example for all mankind. He is the ultimate role model that all Muslims aspire to emulate.
Or maybe you do understand and are ignoring it because you realise the implications.
Either way, not a good look.

Again, I don't see anything wrong in what the Prophet did. He did what was done and was accepted at that time. Also, We don't really know how old Aisha was when she got married, but whatever age she was, she was a woman, and the act was acceptable by anyone in Arabia and outside Arabia.
So, please stop saying I ignored your point

You ignored it again because you didn't deal with the issue of Muhammad's perfect, timeless, universal example.

This is what I said
"Aisha was older than that age when she got married, or, it was totally acceptable to get married in that age with no fault of the Prophet"
So stop saying I said she was 6 or 9.

You seem reluctant to both say what age she was, and to show your source for that claim.

Is Z the answer?
He was a man, a prophet, who did what was totally acceptable by marrying a woman who reached the age of puberty and was engaged to another man 2 years before that marriage

So you don't believe he is the ultimate moral and practical role model for all Muslims then?

I am sorry, but this is really messed up
You want Muhammed to reject the law and norm that was acceptable in his time, and live by the law and norm of 2022 while he lived 1400 years ago!
Try to squeeze your brain here and see how crazy that sounds

What are you on about? You have it completely the wrong way round.
Muhammad lived by the standards of 7th century Arabia. Through Allah's divine, infallible, objective morality, revealed through Muhammad, Islam fixed those standards forever. According to Islam, everyone in 21st century Europe should be living by the morals of 7th century Islam.

I agree that it sounds crazy and messed up, but it's your religion, not mine.

Your analogy is wrong
You are asking a man who lived 1400 to abide by the law of 2022
regarding circumcision, I will abide by the law of the land while thinking it is wrong

So regarding Muhammad's example of marrying a 6 year old, you wouldn't do it because it's against the law, but you think the law is wrong because if Muhammad did it, it can't be morally wrong in the eyes or Allah.
Get it?

Mohammed didn't do something wrong, for two reasons
1. He didn't come and marry a child in 2022

You've lost me there.

2. He didn't marry a child at all even at his time.

So you don't thin six years old is "a child". Yikes!

You seem to be taking this issue as a fact. as I sid above, He married a woman who reached the age of puberty and was engaged to another man 2 years before that marriage, and it was totally fine and acceptable

No. The accounts suggest that he married her before she reached puberty, which is probably why he waited until she was 9 before having sex with her.

And again, you avoid the issue of him being the prefect role model for all humanity. So it to was perfectly fine then, it is perfectly fine all places and all times.
(And of course, you will studiously avoid addressing this issue yet again).[/QUOTE]

 

[Sheldon]

You respect people advocating paedophilia?

No.
I respect Ibn Kathir

if anybody says that the Qur'an says that it is alright to have intercourse with young immature girls, then I think that they are just repeating the mistake of a "sheikh" .. such as Ibn Kathir, who I greatly respect .

Ah so you just respect this one person who advocates paedophilia? So you don't respect Mohammed then?

 

[Father Heathen]

We all grow and learn, no? I don't consider any Deity Perfect. And certainly no Man.

Any being who ever greenlighted child rape at any point in time is a piece of ****, regardless of how powerful they may be or might've been. Anything worthy of being called a god should have the intelligence and empathy to know better.

 

[Father Heathen]

Some have done so on here, today.

Gross. By that logic we shouldn't celebrate the abolition of slavery since it was socially acceptable at the time.

 

[The Hammer]

Anything worthy of being called a god should have the intelligence and empathy to know better.

As opposed to the intelligence and empathy to learn better?

Do we not all have things we wish we hadn't done? But have grown and learned from?

 

[Father Heathen]

As opposed to the intelligence and empathy to learn better?

Do we not all have things we wish we hadn't done? But have grown and learned from?

Sure, but shouldn't gods be held to a much higher standard? Secondly, child rape is pretty damn grievous and heinous. It's not something with which you can simply go "D'oh! Who could've possibly known that raping kids caused such severe and lasting pain and trauma? Oopsie, my bad."

 

[The Hammer]

Sure, but shouldn't gods be held to a much higher standard? Secondly, child rape is pretty damn grievous and heinous. It's not something with which you can simply go "D'oh! Who could've possibly known that raping kids caused such severe and lasting pain and trauma? Oopsie, my bad."

Ad even the Gods themselves die during Ragnarok facing their Fates, as we all will eventually.

 

[Raymann]

It all hinges on "those who aren't menstruating", and you want to stick to certain classical scholars tafsir.

Well, let me think about it for a minute.
Should I believe all the most prominent Islamic scholars who all agree that the waiting period for divorce FOR YOUNG WOMEN WHO HAVE NOT YET REACHED THE MENSTRUATION YEARS is three months?
Or should I believe in muhammad_isa whose credentials in the study of Islam are UNKNOWN?
Yes, that's a difficult decision, I'll have to give it some time.

Why is it that the two Muslims in this thread think you are wrong?
Where are all the other Muslims who agree with you?

I don't expect many Muslims to agree with me.
You are indoctrinated and as Muslims, your job is to defend Islam even when you think is wrong.

I don't follow scholars blindly. Some people do. In fact, they insist on it .. much like you really

I don't have any options. I grew up in the west and my best sources of Islam are the Quran, Hadith, Tafsir and Scholars' versions of the Tafsir.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't expect many Muslims to agree with me..

Huh?
Surely, if these English translations of historical scholars are right about the issue of implied underage intercourse, then the majority of Muslims should follow it.

If you want to think badly of Islam, you will, regardless of any rational explanation.

 

[Raymann]

If you want to think badly of Islam, you will, regardless of any rational explanation.

The only reason to think bad about Islam is by knowing there are Muslims doing bad things.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The only reason to think bad about Islam is by knowing there are Muslims doing bad things.

We are all capable of doing bad things.
..but Allah SWT [God] is not to blame for that.

We have been given intelligence and free-will.
We all make our own choices what to do, and what/who to follow.

 

[KWED]

Can you support your claim?

100% of the several scholars I quoted held that opinion.

 

[KWED]

I will NEVER believe that.
..and I don't personally believe that reputable scholars did either.

But it's there, in black and white, in the tafsir of those scholars.
This is a special kind of denial!

If anything, all you are doing is increasing my faith.

How does that work?
Why would being shown evidence that contradicts you belief, strengthen your belief?

 

[muhammad_isa]

But it's there, in black and white, in the tafsir of those scholars.

Translations / interpretations of Qur'an you mean?

I'll leave it to @RAYYAN

 

[KWED]

For me, it is simple. The word used in the verse is Women, not children. Period

Ironically, in Islam, a "child" becomes a "woman" when she has her first period.
Girls usually have their first period around 9-12, but it can be as young as 7 or 8. Do you really think that sex with girls (sorry, "women") of that age is morally acceptable, in principle?

 

[KWED]

Yes, that makes a lot of sense.
I'm sure those that have written tafsir of Qur'an, would acknowledge such a mistake.
After all, they have interpreted the whole Qur'an .. one verse here or there that is technically wrong could go unnoticed.

Many Muslims still believe that it is alright to have sexual intercourse with an immature girl, if they are married.
..probably due to this historical error.

But it is not an "isolated mistake". Several renowned scholars all come to the same conclusion.
And there is the issue of Muhammad having sex with a 9 year old as corroboration.
And there are other hadith where Muhammad recommends "young virgins" as better for sex than older brides.

 

[KWED]

Thank you.
So it is not 99%. you were exaggerating - Got it

I've told you a million times, never exaggerate!

 

[KWED]

You joke about a serious issue .. ignorance !

There is nothing amusing about people following mistakes, imo.
You find a flaw in historical scholars writings, and try to cash-in on it.

Do you really think that Almighty God is not aware of what is in your heart?
I feel sure that you are not in agreement with a man having intercourse
with a 2 year old.

But you merely accuse them of all being wrong simply because you disagree with them. You don't have anything to support your position other than your distaste for men having sex with 9 year old girls (which we all share). Unfortunately, the weight of (Islamic) evidence suggests that the morally perfect Muhammed did that very thing.

 

[KWED]

No.
I respect Ibn Kathir because he was a pious man who
did his best to make a commentary of the Qur'an.
Nobody is infallible.

We have all been given intelligence to use.
satan uses his in a spiteful way. What a shame.

What is the point in scholars and tafsir and hadith if you just reject them when they don't correspond to your own personal morality standards?
You should just be a Quranist.

 

[KWED]

I am certain that it is right.

Most religionists are certain that their beliefs are right.
You can't all be right, but you can all be wrong.