Is Underage Marriage Allowed in Islam?

[RAYYAN]

Personally, I don't care.
I believe that the Qur'an is the word of God.

I do NOT believe in worshipping "scholars".
Don't get me wrong, I love listening to intellectuals, but I have my own mind, and follow what I see fit.

..and if anybody says that the Qur'an says that it is alright to have intercourse with young immature girls, then I think that they are just repeating the mistake of a "sheikh" .. such as Ibn Kathir, who I greatly respect .. but not worship.

For me, it is simple. The word used in the verse is Women, not children. Period

 

[Raymann]

I have no desire to debate about this, I just want to know if I was misinformed about my religion, so I ask you again;
You said "99 % of the most reputable Islamic Scholars understood it means women who are too young to menstruate"

2ND ATTEMPT: CAN YOU SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM RAYMANN?

I did already a few times.
Here it goes again:

KWED said: ↑
Why don't we consult some of Islam's leading scholars?...
"those who do not have menstruation because they are too young" - Ibn Abbas
"those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age" - Al Jalalayn
"the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation" - Ibn Kathir
"They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age" - Ala Maududi
"Those who are too young [such that they have not started menstruating yet]" - Al-Wahidi

Does that help you?
Of course, when I said 99% I meant "most reputable Islamic Scholars" or most Scholars I had read their take on this verse agree with this translation/interpretation.
That includes the fathers of all Scholars, Mr. Sahih Al-Bukhari and Mr Ibn Kathir.

Sahih Al-Bukhari

CCCLXXXIV: The Tafsir of Surat at-Talaq

Mujahid said that "if you have any doubt" (65:4) means "if you do not know whether she menstruates or not." The 'idda of women who do not longer menstruate and those who have not yet menstruated is three months. ...

(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Chapter 68: Book of Tafsir; English translation by Aisha Bewley; underline emphasis mine)

Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. ... (Source)

 

[muhammad_isa]

For me, it is simple. The word used in the verse is Women, not children. Period

Yes, that makes a lot of sense.
I'm sure those that have written tafsir of Qur'an, would acknowledge such a mistake.
After all, they have interpreted the whole Qur'an .. one verse here or there that is technically wrong could go unnoticed.

Many Muslims still believe that it is alright to have sexual intercourse with an immature girl, if they are married.
..probably due to this historical error.

 

[Raymann]

RAYYAN said: ↑
That (the verse) is talking about women who have irregular period

Assalamuwa'alaikum
That is what I told them .. they want it to be about "child marriage"

I couldn't resist pointing out this funny and ridiculous understanding of the verse and how muhammad_isa also agrees with the ridiculous understanding.

For me, it is simple. The word used in the verse is Women, not children. Period

And another example is here.
If you know an 8 years old female is married and you know the marriage has been consummated already:
Would you still call her a child?
Or would you call her a woman?

I have no desire to debate about this, I just want to know if I was misinformed about my religion, so I ask you again;

So, was your question answered?
WERE YOU MISINFORMED ABOUT YOUR RELIGION?
Out of curiosity, WHO MISINFORMED YOU?
Was it your own religion itself?
Was it a misinterpretation of the scriptures (Quran and Hadith)?

 

[RAYYAN]

I did already a few times.
when I said 99% I meant "most reputable Islamic Scholars" or most Scholars I had read their take on this verse agree with this translation/interpretation.

Thank you.
So it is not 99%. you were exaggerating - Got it

 

[Raymann]

Thank you.
So it is not 99%. you were exaggerating - Got it

No, I wasn't exaggerating, I was just not accurate as it could easily be 99.9% instead.
Do you have any proof I was inaccurate?

 

[RAYYAN]

No, I wasn't exaggerating, I was just not accurate as it could easily be 99.9% instead.
Do you have any proof I was inaccurate?

Again
Support your claim

 

[muhammad_isa]

I couldn't resist pointing out this funny and ridiculous understanding of the verse and how muhammad_isa also agrees with the ridiculous understanding.

You joke about a serious issue .. ignorance !

There is nothing amusing about people following mistakes, imo.
You find a flaw in historical scholars writings, and try to cash-in on it.

Do you really think that Almighty God is not aware of what is in your heart?
I feel sure that you are not in agreement with a man having intercourse
with a 2 year old.

 

[Sheldon]

I doubt this is used in modern times.

This was common practice in the middle ages and before, not just in the middle east.

So did a perfect deity and his perfect (paedophile) prophet get it wrong first time around then?

 

[Sheldon]

Any scripture has to be read with an understanding of the cultural norms of the time, not read across without adjustment to life over a thousand years later.

This doesn't really square with the idea that it's a message from a deity with limitless intelligence to create that message, and limitless power to communicate it. It does square with the shifting cultural norms of evolved and fallible human apes though.

 

[Sheldon]

Okay, but some people in the past have used social norms as a moral justification, particularly as a defense of religious views/figures.

Some have done so on here, today.

 

[The Hammer]

So did a perfect deity and his perfect (paedophile) prophet get it wrong first time around then?

We all grow and learn, no? I don't consider any Deity Perfect. And certainly no Man.

 

[Sheldon]

Father Heathen said: ↑
But these things are presented as representing god's own word and will (inerrant and unchanging), which should supersede cultural norms rather than beholden to them.

Says who, though? In virtually every religion there is considerable interpretation of these ancient texts.

Perhaps I've misunderstood, but are you saying no one thinks these are god's own word and will (inerrant and unchanging), or that they should supersede cultural norms?

There is a thread condemning homosexuality on here, "because god says so" if that helps? Absolutes are dangerous, as of course is blind adherence to doctrine or dogma, no argument there, but the idea most religious adherents are innocuously interpreting the bad bits out is not my impression.

Even were I mistaken, why would anyone believe a deity can't communicate anymore more morally or clearly, than the iron or middle age patriarchal Bedouins from which their "message" conspicuously originated?

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
So did a perfect deity and his perfect (paedophile) prophet get it wrong first time around then?

We all grow and learn, no? I don't consider any Deity Perfect. And certainly no Man.

Then my question can be re-addressed to those that hold such beliefs I guess. Though my question is predicted on the fallible nature of evolved human apes of course.

 

[Sheldon]

Personally, I don't care.

if anybody says that the Qur'an says that it is alright to have intercourse with young immature girls, then I think that they are just repeating the mistake of a "sheikh" .. such as Ibn Kathir, who I greatly respect .. but not worship.

You respect people advocating paedophilia?

 

[Sheldon]

Maybe you are right, it was not 99%, and maybe it should be 100%.

Personally, I don't care.
I believe that the Qur'an is the word of God.

So you don't care if it is right, only that you believe it originated with a deity, wow!

 

[muhammad_isa]

You respect people advocating paedophilia?

No.
I respect Ibn Kathir because he was a pious man who
did his best to make a commentary of the Qur'an.
Nobody is infallible.

We have all been given intelligence to use.
satan uses his in a spiteful way. What a shame.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So you don't care if it is right..

I am certain that it is right.
All praise is for God, the Most High.

 

[Raymann]

You joke about a serious issue .. ignorance !

There is nothing amusing about people following mistakes, imo.
You find a flaw in historical scholars writings, and try to cash-in on it.

Do you really think that Almighty God is not aware of what is in your heart?
I feel sure that you are not in agreement with a man having intercourse
with a 2 year old.

You are not getting the point.
I'm trying to understand and respect the religion as is.
I want to know what Islam is all about, you instead are lying to yourself and creating an Image of Islam that is false and when someone tells you about it you conclude we are making fun of you and the religion.
We have proven to you based on people who have dedicated years to understanding the religion (scholars) but you feel you are superior to them and ignore them.
Islam supports UNDERAGE MARRIAGE, that is a fact and you cannot deny it.
You can always prove us wrong by producing some Quran scriptures that demonstrate your point.
Your personal morals get in the way.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I want to know what Islam is all about, you instead are lying to yourself and creating an Image of Islam that is false and when someone tells you about it you conclude we are making fun of you and the religion.
We have proven to you based on people who have dedicated years to understanding the religion (scholars) but you feel you are superior to them and ignore them.

That's rubbish.

You suggest that these "historical scholars" are infallible, but they are not.
Why is it that the two Muslims in this thread think you are wrong?
Where are all the other Muslims who agree with you?

You can always prove us wrong by producing some Quran scriptures that demonstrate your point.

I have already shown you that the words used in translations you presented are not in the original classical Arabic.

..but of course, you know better..

It all hinges on "those who aren't menstruating", and you want to stick to certain classical scholars tafsir.

I don't follow scholars blindly. Some people do. In fact, they insist on it .. much like you really
I am not in a sect of my own.
I have plenty of educated friends who are orthodox and use their brains.