Is Underage Marriage Allowed in Islam?

[muhammad_isa]

No, but it means that it is reliable and carries some weight. And when so many others concur, what else are we to think?

..that they are following others who base their knowledge on Ibn Kathir from the 13th century.
Were all these translations made in the 13th century? No !

They would be better not to add "meanings" that aren't there in the classical Arabic Qur'an.
---------------------------------------------------------
You know very well that many Muslims come very close to "worshipping" their scholars. Not good !

 

[KWED]

I've already covered that..
Many translations have "a flavour" that comes from the translator, which can be based on personal tafsir. [ from Ibn Kathir etc. ]
It's the same in different versions of the Bible.
Young's literal translation stands out amongst them all [Bible], for an English speaker.

Not sure what point you are trying to make now.
You said that we should refer to the original Arabic.
All these Arabic speaking scholars worked in Arabic.
Neither of us as have the same knowledge either of the Quran or Classical Arabic, so why are you claiming that they are all wrong and you are right?

Obviously different translators will have different styles, but what does that have to do with all these scholars agreeing, in Arabic, on the specific meaning of the Arabic words in the Quran?

 

[KWED]

..that they are following others who base their knowledge on Ibn Kathir from the 13th century.
Were all these translations made in the 13th century? No !

They would be better not to add "meanings" that aren't there in the classical Arabic Qur'an.
---------------------------------------------------------
You know very well that many Muslims come very close to "worshipping" their scholars. Not good !

Still wondering how you claim to be more knowledgable and qualified in Quran studies and Classical Arabic than all these people.

 

[The Hammer]

Muhammad consummated his when Aisha was 9, according to authentic Islamic sources.

This states that she was 17 at marriage. Not 6.

How Old Was A’yshah When She Married The Prophet Muhammad?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Obviously different translators will have different styles, but what does that have to do with all these scholars agreeing, in Arabic, on the specific meaning of the Arabic words in the Quran?

Because they are not just translating .. they are adding their own extra meaning.
They just follow the same "sheikh" what have you.

In case you missed it..
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran
[65:4]

 

[Raymann]

Meanwhile perhaps you would like to see a word-for-word breakdown of the standard "classical Arabic"..

--> https://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=65&verse=4

I wonder, why don't you try a word-for-word using instead the translation of "ABUL ALA MAUDUDI".
Would that change the meaning of the whole verse?
Would you accept the meaning of this word-for-word meaning of the verse?

It does not say "married and still not menstruated". It is "at the time of divorce" which is what the verse all about. It does not say anything about underage girls. I know this is a common anti islamic apologetic and even some muslims have said this same thing. But it's not sound.

Let me ask you:
Isn't it logical to think that a person who is about to get divorced IS MARRIED AT THE TIME?
So being married is implied by the fact that is getting divorced.
This person IS UNDERAGE because if a young female has not YET MENSTRUATED is considered underage.

Not to me !
I don't follow "particular scholars".
One mistake can be made, and the rest follow it.
You need to go to the source .. the classical Arabic.

Are you assuming all these scholars didn't go to the source when they attempted a translation or interpretation?
Do you have a better source than any of these scholars?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I wonder, why don't you try a word-for-word using instead the translation of "ABUL ALA MAUDUDI".
Would that change the meaning of the whole verse?
Would you accept the meaning of this word-for-word meaning of the verse?

What are you on about?
I have already told you that they are not just "translations" .. they include the author's opinions.
Did you even look at the link I posted?
If you think it is wrong in some way, please show me where.

 

[Raymann]

You are correct about the Quran reference. Its context is confirmed by several hadith and classical tafsir that specifically state that the passage is referring to those "too young to have begun menstruation".

Then there is the issue of Muhammad (Islam's ultimate role model) marrying a a six year old and having sex with her when she was 9 (presumably he was waiting for the first period, the sign of adulthood in Islam).

So given all this it is clear that marrying and having sex with very young girls is considered acceptable in Islam.
However, that doesn't mean that many Muslims don't find it personally unacceptable. It's just another example of the conflict between people's own morality and the morality of the religion they follow.

To confirm the veracity of your account:
This is from Aisha herself:
"The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls."

أَخْبَرَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ آدَمَ، عَنْ عَبْدَةَ، عَنْ هِشَامٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، قَالَتْ تَزَوَّجَنِي رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَأَنَا بِنْتُ سِتٍّ وَدَخَلَ عَلَىَّ وَأَنَا بِنْتُ تِسْعِ سِنِينَ وَكُنْتُ أَلْعَبُ بِالْبَنَاتِ ‏.‏

Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)
Reference : Sunan an-Nasa'i 3378
In-book reference : Book 26, Hadith 183
English translation : Vol. 4, Book 26, Hadith 3380

Narrated `Aisha:

I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13)


حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدٌ، أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو مُعَاوِيَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامٌ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ قَالَتْ كُنْتُ أَلْعَبُ بِالْبَنَاتِ عِنْدَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَكَانَ لِي صَوَاحِبُ يَلْعَبْنَ مَعِي، فَكَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم إِذَا دَخَلَ يَتَقَمَّعْنَ مِنْهُ، فَيُسَرِّبُهُنَّ إِلَىَّ فَيَلْعَبْنَ مَعِي‏.‏

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 6130
In-book reference : Book 78, Hadith 157
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 151

This confirms without any doubt that Aisha was underage at the time she and the prophet consummated their marriage.
Should all Muslims follow the example of Prophet Muhammad?
I think that's the idea.

 

[firedragon]

Let me ask you:
Isn't it logical to think that a person who is about to get divorced IS MARRIED AT THE TIME?
So being married is implied by the fact that is getting divorced.
This person IS UNDERAGE because if a young female has not YET MENSTRUATED is considered underage.

Of course married. Thats the whole point. Since you have done extensive research as you claimed, can you give the criteria for marriage stipulated in the Qur'an?

This person IS UNDERAGE because if a young female has not YET MENSTRUATED is considered underage.

Thats a super duper attempt at ignoring the direct question I asked. I asked since you claimed that you have done so much research. You are a superior person since you have so much research on this particular subject. So why not answer this very basic, kindergarten level question? If you don't know, just say you don't know.

What do these things mean?

1. Banath
2. Thifl
3. Fathayah
4. Jaariyah
5. Annisaa.

If you engage with it, you might be able to understand a tad better.

 

[Raymann]

Of course married. Thats the whole point. Since you have done extensive research as you claimed, can you give the criteria for marriage stipulated in the Qur'an?

I'm out of time right now but I'll look into it later.
By the way, have you paid attention to my Opening Statement?
I specifically said:
"I admit, I haven't done a lot of research on the topic but I have listened to a lot of debates on it.
Now I came across Quran 65:4"
So my only purpose was to analyze Quran 65:4.

 

[firedragon]

I'm out of time right now but I'll look into it later.

Okay. I can respect that.

I specifically said:
"I admit, I haven't done a lot of research on the topic but I have listened to a lot of debates on it.
Now I came across Quran 65:4"
So my only purpose was to analyze Quran 65:4.

Okay okay. My bad.

Raymann. I will tell you directly. This verse by default cannot be speaking about babies. Because in the arabic language, at least a girl should be referred to as Fatayah. At least. Or maybe Jaariyah which is also doubtful.

In this verse the Qur'an uses none of those terms. It uses Annisaa. Which means "Women".

The next question you probably will ask like many others is "did some scholars get it wrong"? Well. they could have. No one needs to worship these some scholars who assist in their trip.

There were many many other scholars who said so many other things "other than" them being "prepubescent" because the premise is they were "women" already.

And the Qur'an easily, clearly and vehemently defines the age of marriage. Balaghul nikah. It's in the same book, so that is also a good research to do in order to read one book as one book rather than one verse at a time. It's called "Quran bi Quran" in very very very traditional Islamic scholarship.

If you want scholars, I will give you. No problem. But if your source is "debates", I don't know who you are referring to. If your sources are Christian missionaries, or some who claim to be well researched in the topic with just one bias shallow reading on the topic, I would recommend that you delve deeper. Do the research.

Cheers.

 

[KWED]

This states that she was 17 at marriage. Not 6.

How Old Was A’yshah When She Married The Prophet Muhammad?

The problem with that argument is that it relies on a load of calculations and assumptions based on a load of ages, dates and times that are mentioned in other, less reliable records than the sahih hadith (some narrated by Aisha herself) that explicitly state that she was 6 at marriage and 9 at consummation. This is highlighted by the fact that the revisionists have come up with a variety of ages (from 12 to 21 iirc) using those methods.

Another interesting thing is that no scholar, imam, etc ever questioned or challenged those ages until quite recently when sceptics started using it as a problem with claims that Muhammad is the perfect moral role model for all people and all time.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..my only purpose was to analyze Quran 65:4.

I provided a link for that very purpose..
..you haven't commented on it yet.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..no scholar, imam, etc ever questioned or challenged those ages until quite recently when sceptics started using it as a problem with claims that Muhammad is the perfect moral role model for all people and all time.

How many hadiths are there? 30,000?
Are they all infallible? No !

 

[KWED]

Because they are not just translating .. they are adding their own extra meaning.
They just follow the same "sheikh" what have you.

In case you missed it..
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran
[65:4]

You still aren't addressing the separate issue of all those Arabic speaking Muslim scholars coming to the same conclusion about what it means.

 

[KWED]

What are you on about?
I have already told you that they are not just "translations" .. they include the author's opinions.

Do you understand what a "tafsir" is?
It is a scholar's explanation of what the Quran means - so it is obviously opinion based. Opinion based on decades of studying the Quran, hadith and other sources, through the original Classical Arabic, being Arabic speakers.
And they all came to the same conclusion that the verse means "Not yet menstruated because of their young age".
So not sure on what grounds you claim that it cannot mean that (other than your desire for it not to mean that, of course)

 

[KWED]

Okay. If I can respect that.



Okay okay. My bad.

Raymann. I will tell you directly. This verse by default cannot be speaking about babies. Because in the arabic language, at least a girl should be referred to as Fatayah. At least. Or maybe Jaariyah which is also doubtful.

In this verse the Qur'an uses none of those terms. It uses Annisaa. Which means "Women".

The next question you probably will ask like many others is "did some scholars get it wrong"? Well. they could have. No one needs to worship these some scholars who assist in their trip.

There were many many other scholars who said so many other things "other than" them being "prepubescent" because the premise is they were "women" already.

And the Qur'an easily, clearly and vehemently defines the age of marriage. Balaghul nikah. It's in the same book, so that is also a good research to do in order to read one book as one book rather than one verse at a time. It's called "Quran bi Quran" in very very very traditional Islamic scholarship.

If you want scholars, I will give you. No problem. But if your source is "debates", I don't know who you are referring to. If your sources are Christian missionaries, or some who claim to be well researched in the topic with just one bias shallow reading on the topic, I would recommend that you delve deeper. Do the research.

Cheers.

So Muhammad's use of Classical Arabic vocabulary is governed by your current understanding of it - even though you are not a Classical Arabic speaker. You insist that if a word has a particular meaning in your mind, it cannot possibly be used in any other context.
Seems reasonable.

Do you know what the word "babe" means? What about "boy"?

And BTW, the Quran does not specify an a minimum age for marriage.
And even if it did, we know that the Quran is internally contradictory.

You say you defer to scholars, yet many scholars claim the passages refers to those too young to menstruate, so why do you not accept their opinions?

 

[KWED]

How many hadiths are there? 30,000?
Are they all infallible? No !

Sahih hadith are regarded as the most reliable (apart from the handful of mutawattir hadith). Several sahih hadith explicitly give her age of marriage as 6. Not one single hadith of any grade gives a different age.
I understand why you are uncomfortable with this, but you don't have a cogent counter-argument, just a lot of desperate handwaving and "but if, but if, but if..."

 

[firedragon]

I wonder, why don't you try a word-for-word using instead the translation of "ABUL ALA MAUDUDI".
Would that change the meaning of the whole verse?
Would you accept the meaning of this word-for-word meaning of the verse?

Raymann. Tell me how Maududi translated "annisaa"? It's translated as "women". All Maududi did was present his so called "comprehension". Do you understand? He did not present a tafsir as in something muslim scholars study when studying for a Mufti course. It's a completely different ballgame. That's the reason you should not be so quick to quote a scholar just like that. Trust me Raymann, I can see clearly that you have not read Maududi's work. He quotes many people from the past. And guess what? He quotes a person called Ickreema. Do you know who that was? He was a very well known terrorist considered a murderous terrorist from the 7th century, and from a group of people who believed that any human being who did any kind of sin, small or big are left in limbo. They are the ones who murdered people like swatting insects. Yet, he also quotes other scholars and their varying opinions. This is his methodology. I am not condemning it, I am just telling you that you should study a little more about it before quoting authority.

So give me this so called "word for word" meaning of the verse that could ever in your life change this fact! One could never ever change it. That's the reason all of those anti islamic polemicists focus on the middle part of the verse alone. Thats it. Only the middle exists. Some scholars in traditional islam called it anthakaa where people ignore the beginning or the last part of a verse and focus on one part just for polemics.

If you wish to read scholars, read Abu Hayyan, Ibn Aashur, Malik ibn Anas on marriage, Samarkandhi, Mujahid bin Jabar, Abu Saud, Muhammed atthaalabi, etc. Out of these scholars, only Ibn Ashur is a little modern, the rest are classical mufassireen of the Sunni tradition practicing Qur'an bi Quran tafsir methodology in the Fusha atthuraath linguistic scholarship who not only provide their interpretation but also analysis of language from root to hermeneutics. Malik ibn Anas is the earliest Imam of the school of Medina with the oldest living tradition and supposedly has the so called "Golden chain" of narration.

Cheers.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I understand why you are uncomfortable with this, but you don't have a cogent counter-argument, just a lot of desperate handwaving and "but if, but if, but if..."

Total rubbish !
I have already explained why you are wrong, but you ignore it, and keep heckling.
You are entitled to believe what you want to believe.

I am amongst those that follow Islam, and I don't believe that Allah tells people to sexually abuse anybody, regardless of age or sex.
That is not Islam.

All you are doing is finding "holes", that you know exist, because you are from Muslim culture.
You can't misguide people who Allah SWT guides .. it is impossible.