Is Underage Marriage Allowed in Islam?

[KWED]

I think you are assuming menstral ages don't change/evolve. What was the menstral ages 2000-3000 years ago?

For example "the average age at menarche in 1840 was 16.5 years, now it is 13 years."

The age of menarche - PubMed

There is little data from the ancient world, but it's estimated that the onset of puberty was probably around 14-16 years, but as today it would depend on things like diet, health, environment. The better these factors, the younger the onset of puberty.

 

[KWED]

Afaik, early/child marriages like this were never consumated until many years later. That's what we've discussed in Anthropology. I could be wrong.

Muhammad consummated his when Aisha was 9, according to authentic Islamic sources.

 

[Mock Turtle]

It's a bit of a myth, the idea that child brides were common in medieval times.
In England during the 14th and 15th centuries, the age range of brides for most marriages was between 18 and 22.

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha is actually somewhat unusual, especially so young. Even political marriages tended to be no younger than around 12-14.
The other issue is that those young princes married to the young princesses from other kingdoms are not revered today as perfect moral exemplars.

I tend to agree, given that I have provided evidence in other threads that in the very early 17th century, there was little evidence (from official records) for that many marriages involving females below even the age of 16 in England.

 

[KWED]

No one is suggesting otherwise.

There are Islamic apologists who attempt to justify Aisha's young age at time of consummation, by claiming things like "things were different then", "girls matured earlier", "she consented", "it was ordained by god".

 

[KWED]

OK, but you might as well conclude from reading the gospels that modern Christianity and Judaism condone stoning to death! Any scripture has to be read with an understanding of the cultural norms of the time, not read across without adjustment to life over a thousand years later.

There is no historical or cultural relativism in Islam. What was acceptable and appropriate in 7th century Arabia is acceptable and appropriate in 21st century Europe, in principle. It is a core element of the ideology.
I have often heard variations on the quote "Islam cannot change to suit society, society must change to suit Islam", not just from radical fundamentalists in the ME, but also from young students in western universities.

 

[KWED]

Says who, though? In virtually every religion there is considerable interpretation of these ancient texts.

Indeed. There are plenty of moderate religionists who struggle to reconcile their personal morality with the perfect, objective morality revealed by their god.

 

[KWED]

My point is that it is legal under Islam, it doesn't matter if it is common or not.
Under Allah's law, it is legal so any Muslim can marry a 7-year-old and not feel bad about it as the religion allows it.
Most people (including Muslims) don't do it today but it is not because Islam prohibits them.

To be fair, it would usually only be acceptable once the girl had had her first period rather than any arbitrary young age. And of course it would have to be a state run under Islamic laws. But yes, you are essentially correct.

 

[KWED]

It's been said so many times on this forum: scriptural literalism is, and has always been, a minority pursuit within the major religions.

Depends whether you are talking about the rank and file, or clerics and scholars.

 

[KWED]

@Raymann
Who does "those who have not menstruated as well" refer to?
Could it not refer to those who miss their periods?

Why don't we consult some of Islam's leading scholars?...
"those who do not have menstruation because they are too young" - Ibn Abbas
"those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age" - Al Jalalayn
"the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation" - Ibn Kathir
"They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age" - Ala Maududi
"Those who are too young [such that they have not started menstruating yet]" - Al-Wahidi

Seems pretty conclusive.

 

[KWED]

Ha ha
It is a translation by an English convert in the 1920's [Marmaduke Pickthall].

So not a native Arabic speaker and not an Islamic scholar.
Why do you use such biased sources!?

 

[KWED]

You are generous. I'm afraid I suspect worse: an intention to misunderstand.

maa salaama

Do you think that the several renowned Islamic scholars I quoted on the issue "intended to misunderstand"?
They were all very clear that the passage refers to girls too young to have started menstruation.

 

[firedragon]

I admit, I haven't done a lot of research on the topic but I have listened to a lot of debates on it.
Now I came across Quran 65:4

"As for your women past the age of menstruation, in case you do not know, their waiting period is three months, and those who have not menstruated as well. As for those who are pregnant, their waiting period ends with delivery.1 And whoever is mindful of Allah, He will make their matters easy for them."

This verse refers to the period of time needed to remarry after a divorce.
It clearly states that women who are married and still have not menstruated have to wait 3 months after divorce to remarry.
We can draw the conclusion that Allah sees this situation as normal and therefore it doesn't look like there is any kind of prohibition about girls under age (pre-pubescent) getting married.
In other words, what we consider "pedophilia" is allowed under Islam.

Not really. It does not say "married and still not menstruated". It is "at the time of divorce" which is what the verse all about. It does not say anything about underage girls. I know this is a common anti islamic apologetic and even some muslims have said this same thing. But it's not sound.

Since you have done a "lot of research on the topic", can you give definitions to these following words referred to females? This is very specific to this particular verse so absolutely relevant.

1. Thifl
2. Jaariyah
3. Annisaa

Just that would do. Thanks in advance.

 

[KWED]

I would also say that these so-called translations include "tafsir" [commentary].
..which in this case, comes from a tafsir of Ibn Kathir, which gives HIS opinion .. which I might add is wrong in this particular case.
Many scholars might mean well .. but thay are not Allah. It is better not to add words that are not in the original text !

So, why does your opinion carry more weight than the combined opinions of several of Islam's most renowned and authoritative scholars? Ibn Kathir's tafsir is the most widely used today, so you can't accuse it of being a minority, extremist position.

As always seems the case, hadith, tafsir, scholarly consensus are all claimed to be vital in understanding Islam - until they bring something apologists don't like, then they can all be binned as unreliable.[/USER]

 

[KWED]

Correct me if I'm wrong interpreting what you're saying.
Are you saying that a divorce process includes a 3-month waiting period in case the woman is pregnant?
Is that reason for the 3 months?

That is exactly it. The iddah was to ensure the paternity of any offspring born after the woman remarried.

 

[KWED]

Not really. It does not say "married and still not menstruated". It is "at the time of divorce" which is what the verse all about. It does not say anything about underage girls. I know this is a common anti islamic apologetic and even some muslims have said this same thing. But it's not sound.

Since you have done a "lot of research on the topic", can you give definitions to these following words referred to females? This is very specific to this particular verse so absolutely relevant.

1. Thifl
2. Jaariyah
3. Annisaa

Just that would do. Thanks in advance.

I wondered how long it would be before you turned up with your basket of red herring.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why don't we consult some of Islam's leading scholars?...
"those who do not have menstruation because they are too young" - Ibn Abbas
"those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age" - Al Jalalayn
"the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation" - Ibn Kathir
"They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age" - Ala Maududi
"Those who are too young [such that they have not started menstruating yet]" - Al-Wahidi

Seems pretty conclusive.

Not to me !
I don't follow "particular scholars".
One mistake can be made, and the rest follow it.
You need to go to the source .. the classical Arabic.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Ibn Kathir's tafsir is the most widely used today, so you can't accuse it of being a minority, extremist position..

Yes, it is widely respected, but that does not make it infallible.

 

[KWED]

Not to me !
I don't follow "particular scholars".

And that is your prerogative.
However, you cannot simply dismiss them all just because you disagree with them. They are all renowned scholars, after all. Which sheiyk did you study under? Was it ten yers? Twenty? Tell us of your qualifications and experience.

One mistake can be made, and the rest follow it.

So you believe that in Islam, everyone just follows what someone else said without any thought? Ouch!

You need to go to the source .. the classical Arabic.

And you think that all these fluent, native Arabic speaking scholars, working in Classical Arabic didn't?
Tell me, are you a native, Classical Arabic speaker?
Oh, you aren't?
And yet you feel sufficiently qualified to correct those who are?

 

[KWED]

Yes, it is widely respected, but that does not make it infallible.

No, but it means that it is reliable and carries some weight. And when so many others concur, what else are we to think?
They are all wrong, and some random, non-Arabic-speaking bloke on the internet knows better?

 

[muhammad_isa]

And you think that all these fluent, native Arabic speaking scholars, working in Classical Arabic didn't?

I've already covered that..
Many translations have "a flavour" that comes from the translator, which can be based on personal tafsir. [ from Ibn Kathir etc. ]
It's the same in different versions of the Bible.
Young's literal translation stands out amongst them all [Bible], for an English speaker.