3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
God is my judge not you. I suggest you read Romans 2:1-11 and prove your claims. It is not being deceitful to tell the truth (see John 17:17; Romans 3:4)
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"THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY NOT SUNDAY ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES
- Thread starter 3rdAngel
- Start date
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
I see so you cannot prove my posts wrong can you. Your just going to quote you over the scriptures that are Gods' Words that are in disagreement with you. For me only God's Words are true and we should believe and follow them according to Romans 3:4 and Acts 5:29. You quoting you is not Gods' Word but your words denying Gods' Word. Lets discuss the scripture details. Address my post content and show me why you disagree in detail and lets discuss.
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Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, you ran away from our discussion because you were losing. Pretending does not help you.
And I am always friendly. But the question is can you admit when you are wrong?
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Sorry I do not believe you so we will agree to disagree. Take Care.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
And there you go being disingenuous again. That is not proper Christian behavior. One need not be a doormat to be a Christian, but one should be willing to be honest.
One thing to remember when debating an atheist is that many used to be Christians and that they became atheists due to a superior understanding of the Bible.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
That’s absolutely right : it certainly is not deceitful to tell the truth.
And God is the judge of all of us. BUT he has delegated that task to Jesus Christ…!!
How is Jesus, almighty God, if almighty God delegates down to Jesus?
The above is the last part of a post you made earlier.
In this, you claim that Paul CLOSELY CONNECTS Jesus to YHWH. That is a very strange declaration (‘closely connected’) for what you then declare as a single unified almighty God?
See, it is true that Jesus IS CONNECTED to YHWH. But the verse in Corinthians makes it absolutely clear that the belief is that Yhwh, the Father, IS THE ONLY GOD… and Jesus Christ, himself states that:
- “Father….. Eternal life depends on believing in YOU, the ONLY TRUE GOD..”
(ok, you did not write that exactly, but that is what it amounts to!!)
If Jesus were God (ridiculous) then how is he to be then ONLY ‘CLOSELY CONNECTED’ to God!
See, nonsense!
And also, ‘The voice of the Lord said “Who will go for us?’ And I said, “Here I am, send me!!”’
Wow!! So who is ‘The Lord’, and who is it that replied: ‘Send me’?
For sure, your answer should be ‘GOD spoke and Jesus volunteered’.
But you know that this is a prophesy. It points to the time in the future when Jesus is called BY GOD and goes to the river Jordan to be baptised by John the Baptist … and By The Fathers holy SPIRIT as a sign of his future KINGSHIP and PRIESTHOOD.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
No! You answer the question I asked you that you didn’t reply to, first!!
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
The problem with the Bible is that if one cherry picks verses is that either side of the trinity claim appears to be correct. That means one should try to use a broader context. Quote mining one's own Bible is not a good tactic. So when Jesus said "The Lord and I are one" did he mean that they were the same person or merely that they agreed?
Dear oh dear, some Christians can be annoying!
You're over a barrel. If honesty were a Christian trait ─ instead of a mere debating option ─ you'd be up-front and say, "Yes, Paul clearly distinguishes Jesus ("Lord") from the Father ("God"), since in Judaism there's only one God."
You might like to experiment, and see whether you can learn anything from debating honestly, but that might take the fun out of it for you. Equally I can point you towards the clear water of truthfulness, and urge the view that the point of debate is to learn ─ but only you can choose to drink, and to think.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
It is no hard thing that anyone should think anything else except if they are being deceived or desire to deceive: Jesus was merely stating that they agreed as of ‘One Will’.
Jesus always give way to the Will of the Father: YHWH God. And in doing so it is for sure then that they would always agree AS ONE.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Have you ever met anyone who agreed on anything during a DEBATE? Or did you mean ‘Discussion’?
As you can see with 3rdAngel, no matter what truth is put to him, his aim is to ignore it and continue on the devious course set for him.
However, what you can do from this is for YOU to learn…… learn the ways of the deceiver and use it help prepare yourself for a next encounter - since, for sure, he and his likes, will be doing the same….
((Oh, I just realised I just said that BOTH SIDES LEARN… ok, I was wrong in the first sentence!!!))
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
God rested on the seventh day; Sabbath. The eighth day or the following Sunday would begin a new work week. The Bible does not say God rested starting on the seventh day and forever, thereafter. The eighth day would signal the end of resting and beginning of a new work week.
If you look at the Bible, from Genesis to Revelations, the first six days of creation has God doing Godlike creation, from an entire universe to creating life. After Garden of Eden is there to walk about, there is nothing until Revelation, where God does the impossible creation again, such as sending a fully built city of precious stones to the earth; Heavenly Jerusalem. Then making an entire new heaven and earth. There were the miracles of Moses, but that is not as impossible as a new universe.
On the seventh day, while God rested, life still went on earth. Only in Revelation does God get back to work doing things in caliber with his work in Genesis; armies of God come from heaven to fight Satan. This was the beginning of the eighth day; terrible day of the Lord. God shines in his glory, on the eighth, instead of resting like an old man on the seventh day.
While God was resting, others were in charge doing the work of God. This is where there is confusion. Like on the earthy Sabbath, God made provision to have others do the routine work of creation, that cannot wait as he rested. Satan was put in charge of the earth and humans after the fall from paradise. God could not intercede since he was resting.
When Jesus began his ministry he went into the desert to fast and pray. He was visited by Satan, who among other things, promises Jesus all power and wealth of all the kingdoms of the earth ,if Jesus would bow and serve him. Had Jesus accepted the offer, he would have become the Messiah that was anticipated by the Jews; rich and powerful able to take out even Rome. But that choice, by Jesus, would have placed the son of God below Satan. Jesus declines the offer and reaffirms his rank as the son of God.
This lead to a political conflict in heaven, as God rested, where Satan is thrown from heaven. God was nearing the end of his rest, with all his subordinates, doing the best they can, until God reappears for work. John of Revelations sees God have his morning coffee, and then sees him get back to work.
Satan had originally been Lucifer. He was ranked very high among all the Angles. Lucifer assisted God during the first six days of creation. He was the morning star; consciousness, like a randomizing principle that added variety to creation; trees become many types of trees.
When God rested, Lucifer became Satan and continued his randomizing ways with creation helping the humans develop their will and choice through knowledge of good and evil. Choice, via the law, helped to build up will power to overcome deterministic impulse from instinct.
What is believed to have been God, by the prophets of the Old Testament was actually Satan, as God rested. The coming of Jesus signals that God was nearing the end of his rest and preparations were now being made for the humans to be ready for the eighth day; Sensible slave.
Satan in charge of the humans from Adam and Eve, to the present, explains the conflicting nature of the gold of the Old Testament often pointed out by the Atheists. He could love and hate, he was kind but also scary. This was the binarius nature of Satan; gives knowledge of good and evil. He was in charge as God rested but lose his job just before dawn of the eighth day.
If you look at the Bible, from Genesis to Revelations, the first six days of creation has God doing Godlike creation, from an entire universe to creating life. After Garden of Eden is there to walk about, there is nothing until Revelation, where God does the impossible creation again, such as sending a fully built city of precious stones to the earth; Heavenly Jerusalem. Then making an entire new heaven and earth. There were the miracles of Moses, but that is not as impossible as a new universe.
On the seventh day, while God rested, life still went on earth. Only in Revelation does God get back to work doing things in caliber with his work in Genesis; armies of God come from heaven to fight Satan. This was the beginning of the eighth day; terrible day of the Lord. God shines in his glory, on the eighth, instead of resting like an old man on the seventh day.
While God was resting, others were in charge doing the work of God. This is where there is confusion. Like on the earthy Sabbath, God made provision to have others do the routine work of creation, that cannot wait as he rested. Satan was put in charge of the earth and humans after the fall from paradise. God could not intercede since he was resting.
When Jesus began his ministry he went into the desert to fast and pray. He was visited by Satan, who among other things, promises Jesus all power and wealth of all the kingdoms of the earth ,if Jesus would bow and serve him. Had Jesus accepted the offer, he would have become the Messiah that was anticipated by the Jews; rich and powerful able to take out even Rome. But that choice, by Jesus, would have placed the son of God below Satan. Jesus declines the offer and reaffirms his rank as the son of God.
This lead to a political conflict in heaven, as God rested, where Satan is thrown from heaven. God was nearing the end of his rest, with all his subordinates, doing the best they can, until God reappears for work. John of Revelations sees God have his morning coffee, and then sees him get back to work.
Satan had originally been Lucifer. He was ranked very high among all the Angles. Lucifer assisted God during the first six days of creation. He was the morning star; consciousness, like a randomizing principle that added variety to creation; trees become many types of trees.
When God rested, Lucifer became Satan and continued his randomizing ways with creation helping the humans develop their will and choice through knowledge of good and evil. Choice, via the law, helped to build up will power to overcome deterministic impulse from instinct.
What is believed to have been God, by the prophets of the Old Testament was actually Satan, as God rested. The coming of Jesus signals that God was nearing the end of his rest and preparations were now being made for the humans to be ready for the eighth day; Sensible slave.
Satan in charge of the humans from Adam and Eve, to the present, explains the conflicting nature of the gold of the Old Testament often pointed out by the Atheists. He could love and hate, he was kind but also scary. This was the binarius nature of Satan; gives knowledge of good and evil. He was in charge as God rested but lose his job just before dawn of the eighth day.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I do not think that people do that on purpose. Beliefs can be complex. For example when I was still a Christian I understood that all of the evidence tells us that there was no Flood of Noah. I could not imagine God going around planting false evidence everywhere. That would be a form of lying. And since God could not lie there could not have been a flood of Noah. Bible beliefs can get complicated when one has to interact with the real world.
And do you not see a problem with your claim about agreeing? I am sure that the OP is Christian, but he will disagree with.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I think there are those who do wrong things ‘on purpose’. It is an amusement to them to do this.
It’s called “Playing Devil’s Advocate”.
And Bible belief being complicated are only because the thinking is in the flesh rather than in the spirit.
Jesus was often flabbergasted that things he said were misunderstood by the hearers.
Take, for instance (since you mentioned it) the O.P. The question is concerning the Sabbath (day).
It was established to give people (and especially slaves) a day of rest since originally everyone worked seven days a week… what reason would there have been for ‘a day off’? That would have seemed lazy and Jews were anything but lazy!!
But God saw the pressure his people were under especially under slavery and sought, through Moses, to institute a day of rest …. In which they were to WORSHIP HIM and DO GOOD.
Over time, the Jews forgot the ‘Do Good’ part and thereby set a millstone around their necks.
Now, since they were all one people, the Jews were called to worship God IN JERUSALEM at the temple. There were several ceremony (worship) days set out on a periodic basis. The Samaritans would do the same but gather themselves together around the mountain where the Jews used to worship before Jerusalem was made the established place to worship God.
In between these worship gatherings in Jerusalem or on the mountain, the people gathered each in their own town at the synagogue.
The day was to spent worshipping God and so they literally banned all work that was monetarily or bodily profitable … that’s the point…. The failure point… for, since they were a people who loved making money and profit, EVERYTHING resembling WORK that was not towards God, was banned. So, even baking bread (that could be sold) or helping the sick (being a doctor at a cost to the patient!)… was outlawed.
But, as Jesus pointed out, if their donkey fell down a well, they would not hesitate to seek help and pull it out (Since leaving the donkey would lose them profit!).. So Jesus called them hypocrites!!
And, Jesus pointed out that feeding the starving IS DOING GOOD… (remember that I said that they had forgotten that part of what God commanded!!). Jesus even pointed to the fact that David, coming back with his troops, starving from battle, stopped in the temple and ate the Shew Bread that was only meant as a sacrifice to God…. (What’s the meaning behind that…?) but yet the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy because he rolled some wheat head in his hands to make flour to eat because he was hungry!! Did you accuse David? No! Hypocrites…!!!
Ok, so that is Sabbath. So Jesus knew the time of his departing the physical world was coming soon through his death. He would normally avoid Samaritan land but now he knew the Jews were not receptive of him he didn’t care any more - the good news was going to be opened up to all mankind, all nations and peoples, old and young, free men and slaves. He therefore entered Samaria but found when he was near Jacobs’s Well, that he was thirsty and hungry. Sending the disciples off to buy food he found himself talking to a Samaritan woman. God revealed to Jesus that the woman was a serial fallanderer, having several ‘husbands!!’. But the woman SURPRISED Jesus with her wisdom (in things not related to adultery!!!!) and so Jesus revealed to her things he had not even told his own disciples (That they wrote about!).
One such thing was exactly concerning the Sabbath!!
Jesus told the Samaritan woman that in time to come:
- ‘Worship will no longer be on the mountain … nor in Jerusalem BUT IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH’
‘In truth’: This means honesty, truthfulness, reverence, unselfishness,…
Note carefully, this did not mean there would be no CORPORATE WORSHIP…. Jesus was going to establish a church upon which CORPORATE worship would be carried out. A body of people of like minds (CHURCH) requires repetitive ceremonies, common (not personal) prayers, rote behaviours which outwardly might seem pious. But none the less Corporate worship is a necessity.
Jesus alludes to this through John in Revelation wherein he refers to the seven (EXAMPLE) churches of Asia Minor (since, for sure there were more than seven churches in Asia Minor and elsewhere!).
The point was that ALL THE CHURCHES were falling short of TRUE WORSHIP and GLORY to God. And, indeed, it is a difficult thing to do since all manner of outside influences will creep in; politics, avarice, misplaced or misleading teachings, etc.
So… Sabbath, is no longer a necessity. It is a corporate requirement BUT NOT A NECESSITY on an individual basis.
Just like with the Jews; if your work as a nurse or doctor or fireman or air-sea rescue agent requires you to work on a ‘SABBATH’ day… are you going to say you cannot come in? Isn’t that exactly like with the Jews who said ‘No work - not even Good work!’?
Take YOUR ‘DAY OF REST’ (your SABBATH) on a day that is available to YOU. Worship God IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH on that day - Do Good on that day (? Doesn’t mean ignore good on other days: God is doing GOOD every day!)
IF YOU CAN (and yes, most people can) take your SABBATH on a CORPORATE DAY but remember the ‘IN TRUTH AND SPIRIT’ part.
Seventh day Adventist still place a millstone around their necks with ‘No work on Friday after six pm’. Jesus Christ NEVER commanded any such performance. The practice was established by Ellen White with her mistaken beliefs and in a bid to differentiate her church SCRIPTURES from the true scriptures.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Jesus gave the Apostles the right and obligation to make changes as needed, and they in turn did the same.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Only God’s word are true and we should believe and follow them. That’s what you say?
Then why don’t you do it?
- “You believe in God; believe also in me.” (John 14:1)
‘Eternal life depends on believing that you [Father] are the only true God…’
‘Eternal life depends on believing … in Jesus Christ WHOM YOU [Father] SENT!’
Jesus qualifies himself:
- ‘“My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.’ (John 4:34)
- “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”” (John 6:29)
- “The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave [to jesus] to show his servants what must soon take place.” (Rev 1:1)
(Honestly, you actually believe that Jesus, a man SANCTIFIED BY GOD, is God… God who sanctified him?)
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Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Honestly, what IS ‘The Lord’s Day”?
There seems to be some kind of disconnect in what is being discussed here.
Even veteran and eminent ‘Christians’ have NO IDEA what ‘The Lord’s Day’ is. How is expected that anyone here is going to prove what it means.
Discussing the SABBATH is fine. It was FRIDAY EVENING TO some time on SATURDAY (Jewish days for Roman Friday and Roman Saturday).
Sabbath had nothing to do with Roman SUNDAY!
The link between Jewish Sabbath and contemporary Sunday is tenuous in terms of the scriptures…!
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
No thank you dear friend. You made the claims that my posts were wrong earlier. Show me the evidence. You quoting you over the scriptures is not evidence I am wrong. No go and prove your claims and address the content of my posts and prove to me why you think my posts are wrong and lets discuss the scripture details together. I will start in good faith and address your first post where you are mirco-quoting me out of context to my larger post that already addressed your question to start alright?
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Sorry I do not believe you and yes I am being very genuine and honest in this claim and unlike you have shown why in all of our discussions together. Funny, I was an atheist and now a Christian. You a Christian who has departed the faith and now Atheist. We are indeed opposites
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Really because they disagree with you and are able to show why they might disagree?
Well if you read my posts you would have seen that I clearly did state Paul as calling the father as God and Jesus as Lord referring to both of them as the God of creation. I was also able to show through the old testament scriptures what I believe that means from the Genesis account and compared Hebrew, Greek to English words used in 1 Corinthians 8:6 also showing how the Hebrew and Greek words can have plural application/ All I have heard back from you in regards to that posts is silence. You chose not to respond to it so there is nothing further I can say here in this regard. So in my view it is you (using your words) who is over the barrel here. The evidence is your not willing to address the content of my posts shared in good faith that are in disagreement with you and making paper dragons to tear down that no one is talking about so I guess we will agree to disagree here dear friend. You have already been provided scripture directly from the gospel writers and the Apostles all in agreement stating that Jesus is God verbatim in *John 1:1-4; 14; 1 John 5:20; John 20:28; Hebrews 1:8; 2 Peter 1:1; Titus 2:13. This is all in agreement with all my previous posts to you despite your claims to the contrary. No one has said that the Father is Jesus and Jesus is the Father. Jesus and the father however are one according to the scriptures in John 10:30 which can be shown all through the old and new testament scriptures as plural meaning.
I find this a common problem in debates with some people. Sometimes it get to a stage when some people have no response for what is being shared with them. Instead of addressing the post content and having a friendly discussion they seek instead to close they eyes and ears because they have no answers and do not want to admit that they could be wrong about something. You can know these people because after a while when confronted with truth instead of continuing in a friendly discussion they seek to turn the discussion away from the messages being shared with them and seek to make the discussion all about the messenger. Sad really. Anyhow thanks for some discussion looks like we will agree to disagree. Take Care.
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