Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

[rational experiences]

The old legal argument said there was no beginning so there can be no end.

As space is in the same two places.

Relating to humans speaking and thinking. Thought Begins and ends with an answer. A human answer.

So humans said consciousness Proved to myself I am the end and consciousness in my exact place..an end to know. Dominion. Nothing after me.

As I die sacrificed.

Being what death of consciousness is.

As consciousness is not involved in decay.

Hence as space is stated by dominion..man to be beginning and end...he says its infinite.

Nothing owns mass all the numbers however as amount of.

So thinkers as men state the universe is exact as it created rock. You cannot thesis it doesn't exist or nor would rock.

Even the sun blasting proves law in our universe owns rock.

So the universe itself never began. It just is he said.

Doing a review of why humans think differently. Is in fact based on self idolisation.

It's history by human status it is of all known things wrong. Never was it a claim of all things right.

So you ask inventors. Theists. Using human memories before selves as they have proved. It was about a history of when man as the inventor converted bio life on earth into a resource. Carbon. He remembers now.

His memory of achieving it as an inventor mind is real. It's in his DNA it's the scientist...it's what he knew he achieved it already.

Why he pretends a universe as it is now the universe once never existed. As he had confessed he had changed the previous universe himself. Causing one third of stars to fall

When that missing planet body shifted a dimension through a slit he caused reason.

The destroyer study is a base human truth. Written to warn us about consciousness.

 

[David Davidovich]

So, let's start there. What is the point you understand I was making from the Joe Rogan video where Jimmy Corsetti and Ben van Kerkwyk spoke abou their research and Graham Hancock's work?

The point is what you said in your post #199:

ancient civilizations appear to have been more advanced that some modern western scholars let on.

 

[David Davidovich]

This goes back to what I said from the start. You don't have to accept what is written in Jewish text. You can pass it off as mythology and that is fine. Yet, if you are asking how Jewish texts describe, define, and explain thousands of years old texts in Hebrew and a story/claim found in them, then you have to accept that they were not written in the language you use. They were written in a language that does not have a word for word translation with your language. If it did you wouldn't have to ask any Jew anything. You would 100% confident in your translation. If that point alone is not something you can accept then no one can supply you with an answer to your question. Notice I didn't say to make you beleive the answer. I stated that no one can supply you with an answer to your question.

For example, I challenge you to find one English translation that translates the following words from Hebrew to English in one word.

View attachment 71955

You won't find it because does not have a "word" to translate this. Even in Hebrew explainations for the words are lengthy because these two words define what the text is talking about. Yet, your translation can't convey w/o a lengthy explaination of what the words are, what they mean, and how the context is defined. So, that being said there is no way to start with a translation and treat the translation as if you have gotten what is in the original.



No, it is not complex. Jewish children here in Israel learn it in grade 1. They can easily understand it in grade 2 to 3. Why? Because they are learning it directly from the original and the thousands years of information around it.

It may be complex if one is trying to explain it to someone who doesn't Hebrew, who is using a Christian translation, and not realizing that their translation is not sufficient. The reality is exactly what the Tanakh or anything other Torath Mosheh Jewish text states in only relevant to Jews, for the most part

In fact, I can easily explain this to someone face to face or on Zoom in a way that is completely understandable. I have done this before and it is lot faster than trying to write out explainations on a forum.



Again, if you want to believe that Jews (rabbis/pubdits/etc.) of any generation didn't understand what the Hebrew text says, even though it was their native language, you would have to assume that we Jews of today aldo don't understand it. Thus, your question would serve no purpose in even asking because you also have no way to understand it because you are experiencing.

As I have mentioned before, the Torah was given for the Jewish people to study, debate, investigate, and pass on to Jewish children. It was not meant for the non-Jewish world to take translate and make into what the want to make it. Yet, it is not the job of Jews to convince the world - we don't missionize.

Thus, it is not my job to convince you that my and every other Jews ancestors understood the Torah. I am simply answering questions you are asking. You are free to not agree and reject the answer.



All you have to do is take the sources I provided in Hebrew, screenshot them, and ask various Jews who know Hebrew. You can even email rabbis to see if what I stated is actually found in ancient Jewish texts. That is whole reason I provide screen shots of what i am talking about in my videos so that it is clear that I not just making stuff up.

In fact, I will make it simple for you. Take the following graphic and ask every Jew you can find who knows Hebrew for a one word translation of the words I circled. Then ask them for a translation where that one word translation is found.

View attachment 71955

Okay. Thank you for your reply.

 

[David Davidovich]

Sure in my post HERE, see the last paragraph, and also years ago I stated it in the thread below.

Tools for Determining the Truth

Also, my response HERE to a question about the OP and also HERE.

I clicked your post #164 and ended up reading the entire post, but I still didn't understand your last paragraph. Therefore, could you elaborate on that? Also, I haven't read the information from the other links yet.

Because a person never use blind faith in how they direct their lives and what they hold by as reality. They should have solid reasoning and also accept that they can be 100% wrong about any and everything. This is a fundamental in Torath Mosheh. Thus, I constantly evaulate what I hold by using the following method.

I see that you had already answered a recent related question that I had in post #78 in the "Who is Hashem?" thread with your post above. However, I hadn't even seen this post yet. But I will watch your above video and I appreciate what you've said so far.

 

[David Davidovich]

View attachment 71957

View attachment 71958
View attachment 71959

Thank you. I will have to read that some other time.

 

[David Davidovich]

I discussed that in this thread below.

The Importance of Correct/Accurate Terminology in Discussing Torah/Yahaduth

Like ancient Israeli/Jews, they didn't have a word that equates to the etymology of the English word god. They had words that are similar to (אל - אלוה - אלהים) which are terms that denote power/strength/the abiliyt to do and are not specific to deity like god is. These words can even be applied to concepts that people give power to over their way of thinking and acting. I actually addressed this in the Avodah Zara video, if you remember.

From 2:08 to 6:45 I talk about this exact issue in detail showing the language of the region you are asking about.

So, in short the nations in this region were not religious in the way you may be used to it in the west. They had concepts of their being powers in reality, some of which was the idea that they are harnessing the powers that exist in the universe to accomplish certain needs that they had.

I will read the information from the thread link and I will also watch the video again if you said that I watched it already before. Although, I do think that I am understanding what you are saying in this post. However, in post #96 in another thread (and probably a sore subject), even if a YouTube video narrator is making a point about the creator or the Source of Creation using inaccurate 'Western' terms, wouldn't the narrator's argument or point still apply? Or perhaps I can do an entire thread on that topic and reword it more accurately/appropriately?

 

[David Davidovich]

Okay, so ignore Joe Rogan and let's address what his guests talked about. Also, I posted a video that did not have Joe Rogan in it. The videos you send me I take into account what they are saying irregardless of how I feel about the person making the content.

Fair enough. And for the rest of what you said in your post #239... to be continued.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑

therefore, further proof wasn't even needed about ancient advance civilizations. However, what I had requested from you were other examples of ancient Hebrew text that had either advanced medical information or advanced technological information in them, which would have been more impressive to me. However, you came up snake eyes with that request.

Good, so IF for more than 2,000 years Jews have discussing the meaning of Beresheeth, the actual name of the section of the Torah, and they have been stating things are the same as or similar to what modern scientific research posits one has to acept the inforamtion is there. Second, IF, the claim by the Jewish authors for their information is a) from the Oral Torah and b) from their own personal research and all of that information within that 2,000 year time frame then one has to accept that the information exists.

Okay, just for clarification (for me), would it be correct to say that if Jews have been discussing the meaning of Beresheet for more than 2000 years, then when modern science started to have a better understanding of the creation of the universe, would (perhaps?) the Jews who knew this information said something like: 'Yes, that is very similar to what we have been reading and understanding about creation in the Hebrew text named Beresheet for over 2000 years?'

Now, you may decide that you don't agree with their claims of where they got their information. That is fine. Yet, that is not important to the authors and it is not important to the discussion. Yet, IF the information is actually there and it is dating in that 2,000 year period it proves that they were talking about it in the way that the information claims they were.

Okay, but I'm curious about something... Do you know if anyone outside of Jewish culture knows about this? Because as you probably already know, this world seems to want to know everything about everybody. We have security cameras everywhere and our phones and computers are constantly being tracked and followed by everyone, therefore, I would think that this information would at least be already known by others (and whether or not it is believed is a different story). Also, if it hasn't been known, then it is now.

As a side note, you will notice that when Creastionist and Athiests debate science the vast majority of the time it is Christian vs. Athiest. Most the time Jews are not involved because the science has never been a problem for us.

I can't argue with that.

 

[David Davidovich]

I thought about this statement you mad a bit more and the more I thought about it I realized that what you are actually making here is a religious claim and not one found in Torath Mosheh. I.e. there are various religious proponents who propose that their religion opens the doors to the universe or to perfect understanding for all those who would accept it. Also, these type of religions work hard to convince and proof to those who don't beleive them that their religion, and by extension, they [said members] some hidden knowledge on how reality works that non-beleivers don't have.

That's true.

This claim is foreign to the Torah. The Torah gives a message to a Jew that the more we learn and advance the more we will wrestle with reality. The more answers we find the more questions that will be produced.

Also, in Talmud there is a statement made about Israel vs. the nations in terms of what each one knows. The statement posits, "If they say to you that wisdom/knowledge exists in the non-Jewish nations believe them; if they say the Torah is in the non-Jewish nations don't believe them." What this means is that knowledge, in the general and advanced sense, can be found all around the world in various nations. The Torah is not needed for advanced medicine and technology to exist. That is a natural human progression. Yet, the Torah requires the written text and the oral Torah which only the Jewish people received have spent thousands of years of perfecting our understanding of it. This Torah, for the Jewish people, helps us deal with the advancements of all types that will naturally happen due to human advancement.

Thus, how did previous generations of Jews record information about the universe - easy because that is covered in written Torath in Beresheeth and thus they had a reason dig deep into those concepts because it was known there was a reason for doing so. The Torah though does not spend a lot of time on something medicine and technology because that is already a natural part of the world that Jews can obtain like any other human can. (Even though before the exile there was information that one of the kings of Israel gathered about medicine.)

I see.

Further, the point of the Torah is that humans (Jewish and non-Jewish) will have to work to develop medically and technologically in a responsible way. This is one of the points of the result of Adam's and Hawwah's (Eve's) actions and the concept of Ya'aqov (Jacob) wrestling with a malakh.

Okay. Also, I'm going to have to start a thread sometime about the Torath Mosheh Jewish understanding of Adam and Eve. Because from what I've heard about it from you thus far, it leaves me with a million questions.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I clicked your post #164 and ended up reading the entire post, but I still didn't understand your last paragraph. Therefore, could you elaborate on that?

In short, I and anyone the planet can be 100% about anything and everything we hold by. If the reality is that the universe w/o something causing it or creating then that is what I accept. IF that is what is proven to be the case. Just because I keep the Torah doesn't me make correct, doesn't make it correct, etc.

The challange is the claim of a national revelation that the entire Jewish people experienced when the Torah was given at Mount Sinai. This is the foundation of the Torath Mosheh claim. If this were "proven" to be wrong everything else falls apart.

i.e. I am logically addressing that it is not impossible for us to be wrong. Thus, I also investigate what I hold by to determine if it is logical.

 

[rational experiences]

How can you use a worded statement a non universe or the universe if it was not existing?

Theists humans only say when I wasn't existing or when what I look at wasn't existing.

In laws reality this thin king says I'm expressing I don't believe it should exist or be present.

Not conscious behaviour acceptance of the nature of presence.

Was already reviewed by healers claiming a form of humans misbehaviour that they bring forth from the deeper psyche...chemical terms.

I'll name It confessing.

Or I confess of Sion because I've been sin changed.

Sin.
Sin O. Position of causes....Sion.
Born created but by sex that caused it. Medical reasoned.

Not a whole woman DNA not a whole man DNA. Said medical analogy genesis. Assessed by terms woman's DNA should not mix with woman or man with man as a medical discussion of altered genealogy....laying with on chemical tabling biology.

Mistakes and changes to health.

Mind dysfunction.

Reasoned. God owned life species by two.

Science had theoried against it all as one life one mind a man. Positions of natural genealogy assessment said science had displaced life itself.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay. Also, I'm going to have to start a thread sometime about the Torath Mosheh Jewish understanding of Adam and Eve. Because from what I've heard about it from you thus far, it leaves me with a million questions.

It leaves all Torath Mosheh Jews with questions also. That is why it was included in the Torah. It doesn't just speak to one man and woman in history. It speaks of all humanity.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

However, in post #96 in another thread (and probably a sore subject), even if a YouTube video narrator is making a point about the creator or the Source of Creation using inaccurate 'Western' terms, wouldn't the narrator's argument or point still apply? Or perhaps I can do an entire thread on that topic and reword it more accurately/appropriately?

No, because you can argue with the actions of a "god" because normally westerners view a god as something you pray to get your will accomplished. The god is just the means for your getting stuff. Saying something created a universe and you are small part of that universe is not the same concept. Also, if the guy doing the video was really including Torath Mosheh in it he would have spent some time understanding what that means from its own sources and then going from there.

 

[wellwisher]

Why didn't the universe always exist? Because since God is supposed to be outside of time and is supposed to have always existed, then how could God have used a point in time to start creation? Any thoughts on this?

Our universe is based on space-time, where the concepts of space and time are connected and act as a single thing. The term light year sounds like a measure of time, but it is really a measure of distance since time and space are connected as space-time.

We understanding time by changes within space. A clock, which measures time, is accompanied by a change within space such as the movement of the second hand on an analogy clock, or by a change in the digital display; readout at a position on the digital clock. Our universe, is based on matter, energy and space-time, with matter and energy all having limits connected to space-time; Law of Physics. The speed of light; speed is distance/time, is a constant.

Picture if space-time was not connected. Rather space and time could both act independently of each other. One could move in time without the constraints of space and/or move on space without the constraints of time. If we could move in space, independent of time, we would be omnipresent. This is a classic attribute of God.

Space-time is a subset of independent space and independent time. Independent space and independent time allows for concepts like omnipresence and omniscience, whereas space-time does not allow this. For our universe to appear in time=0; space-time needs to form. Independent time and independent space will need to merge, thereby placing limits on infinity and eternity; temporal universe.

Genesis has God brooding over the deep. God begins the process in a realm where there is only independent space and independent time, which has no limits. Let there be light!, is when the merger into space-time appears. Light is based on connected wavelength and frequency which are measures of distance; wavelength and time; frequency.

Since independent space and time is so much more diversified, than our realm where limits are imposed by space-time; laws of physics, our universe is but a blip in terms of independent space and time, with independent space and time, slowly evolving us back to its origins. Our limited temporal universe is heading back to eternity and infinity. We are like an ice cube; solid, in a warm bath; fluid.

 

[rational experiences]

Theists said I believe a human is instant now.

Big bang instant human.

Leaving out all theories men ever said. No need for theories light instant.

Instant human is whole human. Living inside osmosis water mineralised oxygenated heavens body...notice we say it's gods body we live inside of..... as we breathe to stay alive.

Men want resources new ones.
Men say machines need resources put into the body of machine.

Theists said I believe a human came out of machines sun metals...his machine had....earth had saved his machine.

Suns machine gets used up as energy light.

So he said my machines transmitted to pyramid. Transmitters voice images hence can be a resource. Energy.

So he says humans are part machine.

Jesus he says enters their body as voice image a resource. You're part machine family.

I want it now for my machine to enter it.

Electricity he says.

Position electricity is only electricity.

Biology doesn't have it entering our body as we aren't a machine.

Electricity can't enter a machine unless sent along his electricity lines. As he plugs the machine into it.

So they argue your parents spirits from heavens energy bodies enter your baby body to keep you alive. They grow you.

My Wise brother told me...I already had this argument.

Mother father died.

Dead bodies cannot enter living bodies.

Actually he said the human baby my own he said is man and the baby created it's own adult.

Why I taught a baby human is the creator. As he knew you'd lost your conscious thinking capability.

You rely on humans challenging you.

You need other humans to save you.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay, just for clarification (for me), would it be correct to say that if Jews have been discussing the meaning of Beresheet for more than 2000 years, then when modern science started to have a better understanding of the creation of the universe, would (perhaps?) the Jews who knew this information said something like: 'Yes, that is very similar to what we have been reading and understanding about creation in the Hebrew text named Beresheet for over 2000 years?'

Yes. The Rambam also stated in his book the Moreh Nevuchim "Guide to the Perplexed" that the Jews who are closest to Hashem are those who know Torah and Halakha as well as science, mathematics, and various other sciences in how the natural world works.

Okay, but I'm curious about something... Do you know if anyone outside of Jewish culture knows about this? Because as you probably already know, this world seems to want to know everything about everybody. We have security cameras everywhere and our phones and computers are constantly being tracked and followed by everyone, therefore, I would think that this information would at least be already known by others (and whether or not it is believed is a different story). Also, if it hasn't been known, then it is now.

Probably, but only those outside people would be answer for themselves. I have seen a few here in Israel, but again we are talking about people who can read/understand Hebrew.

There have been a number of rabbis who have written a compilation of this information. Below is one of the ones that was translated into English.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Why didn't the universe always exist? Because since God is supposed to be outside of time and is supposed to have always existed, then how could God have used a point in time to start creation? Any thoughts on this?

Existence had no beginning, time is not a real entity, it is merely a concept that represents the observation of some finite duration of the timeless continuation of existence.
Nothing does not exist, never has, never will, that which exists has always existed.
Anyone who thinks there was a beginning to existence needs to explain how something came from nothing.

 

[David Davidovich]

In short, I and anyone the planet can be 100% about anything and everything we hold by. If the reality is that the universe w/o something causing it or creating then that is what I accept. IF that is what is proven to be the case. Just because I keep the Torah doesn't me make correct, doesn't make it correct, etc.

The challange is the claim of a national revelation that the entire Jewish people experienced when the Torah was given at Mount Sinai. This is the foundation of the Torath Mosheh claim. If this were "proven" to be wrong everything else falls apart.

i.e. I am logically addressing that it is not impossible for us to be wrong. Thus, I also investigate what I hold by to determine if it is logical.

Thanks. I really appreciate that answer. Also, that tells me that Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews are not fanatics. Although, I don't know about the various forms, denominations, movements, and groups who consider themselves Jews. However though, I would say that some Christian groups fall more into that category. Plus, I don't know that much about Islam, but I did read or hear somewhere recently that they can be EXTREMELY harsh if a person leaves that religion/culture/faith and that death threats sometimes are made to people who leave Islam.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑

Okay. Also, I'm going to have to start a thread sometime about the Torath Mosheh Jewish understanding of Adam and Eve. Because from what I've heard about it from you thus far, it leaves me with a million questions.

It leaves all Torath Mosheh Jews with questions also. That is why it was included in the Torah. It doesn't just speak to one man and woman in history. It speaks of all humanity.

Yeah, I'm going to have to start a topic on that because since Torath Mosheh Jews accept the theory of evolution (I think), then I really don't understand how you all can also believe the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis. But like I said, that's a topic for another discussion.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑

However, in post #96 in another thread (and probably a sore subject), even if a YouTube video narrator is making a point about the creator or the Source of Creation using inaccurate 'Western' terms, wouldn't the narrator's argument or point still apply? Or perhaps I can do an entire thread on that topic and reword it more accurately/appropriately?

No, because you can argue with the actions of a "god" because normally westerners view a god as something you pray to get your will accomplished. The god is just the means for your getting stuff. Saying something created a universe and you are small part of that universe is not the same concept. Also, if the guy doing the video was really including Torath Mosheh in it he would have spent some time understanding what that means from its own sources and then going from there.

Okay... But since this thread is about existence and creation, could you at least briefly explain to me why the animal and insect kingdoms are so violent and predatory? What is the Torath Mosheh Jewish belief as far as whether or not this was the Source of Creation's original intent? Although, I do understand the reality of the biogeochemical cycle:

biogeochemical cycle, any of the natural pathways by which essential elements of living matter are circulated. The term biogeochemical is a contraction that refers to the consideration of the biological, geological, and chemical aspects of each cycle.

Which includes:

Plants and some animals obtain their nutrient needs from solutions in the environment. Other animals acquire the bulk of their needs from the plants and animals that they consume. After the death of an organism, the elements fixed in its body are returned to the environment through the action of decomposers (decay organisms such as bacteria, insects, and fungi) and become available to other living organisms again.

And which includes the reality of the ecosystem:

Trophic levels

marine food chain

terrestrial food chain

food web

energy pyramid
Together, the autotrophs and heterotrophs form various trophic (feeding) levels in the ecosystem: the producer level (which is made up of autotrophs), the primary consumer level (which is composed of those organisms that feed on producers), the secondary consumer level (which is composed of those organisms that feed on primary consumers), and so on. The movement of organic matter and energy from the producer level through various consumer levels makes up a food chain. For example, a typical food chain in a grassland might be grass (producer) → mouse (primary consumer) → snake (secondary consumer) → hawk (tertiary consumer). Actually, in many cases the food chains of the ecosystem’s biological community overlap and interconnect, forming what ecologists call a food web. The final link in all food chains is made up of decomposers, those heterotrophs (such as scavenging birds and mammals, insects, fungi, and bacteria) that break down dead organisms and organic wastes into smaller and smaller components, which can later be used by producers as nutrients. A food chain in which the primary consumer feeds on living plants is called a grazing pathway, and a food chain in which the primary consumer feeds on dead plant matter is known as a detritus pathway. Both pathways are important in accounting for the energy budget of the ecosystem.

Also, I do want to make note that PART OF MY QUESTION is related to how some religious groups deny the above realities because of their interpretation (misinterpretation?) of what they read in Genesis 1:29-30:

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

and Genesis 9:3:

3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.