Islam vs western values

[Pro Gamer]

Islam seems to be a political religion, so to arbitrarily call something that some Muslims interpreted as being a pillar of Islam a "political change" as opposed to a religious change seems to be fallacious to me.

For example;
'Ibn Khaldun (1334-1406 CE) holds that the issue of politics and caliphate is related to representing God’s justice among His servants. Therefore whoever is capable of providing justice when ruling Muslims can be elected as a caliph. He argues that, at the beginning of Islam, caliphs were chosen from the bloodline of Quraysh and they all tried to provide justice for all the citizens in the Islamic state. Then it became a kingdom where obeying a caliph was accepted as one of the pillars of the Islamic creed.'

Source: Caliphate, a disputed concept, no longer has a hold over all Muslims

quran calls adam a "khalifa" of this world and said we humans are also a khalifa for this world so in its basic meaning if we do our best to establish justice of Allah in this world then we are khalifa that's the concept but you are referring to empire ruler "khalifa" here which is political leader

 

[Pro Gamer]

A)That doesn't make it circular in my view.
B) It is still wrong if it causes demonstrable harm except where its the lesser of two evils eg if i kill you and take your property it is of harm to you and some degree of benefit to me, but it is still wrong because a demonstrable harm has occurred in my opinion.

then you need to determine who is getting more harm and who is getting more benefits. if 10 people take your properties so isn't more benefits than harm because 10 people are enjoying it while one person lost it?

 

[Pro Gamer]

You say you don't blindly follow any forefather then make a vague reference to following a way "that people in the 7th century followed", but who are those 7th century people whose way you (in my view) blindly follow if not your Islamic forefathers?

Here is the litmus test for determining whether you are blindly following in my opinion, if you are not blindly following you should be able to support your way using reason, so demonstrate according to reason that lgbt folk should be murdered and that slavery should be supported in the age of the industrial revolution please.

i am saying our forefather followed the quran and we are following it so it's not following the forefathers but rather we have the same common source of reference for the truth

 

[SalixIncendium]

different schools of thoughts have never negated basic islamic laws and common folks aren't even aware of schools of thoughts

So are you amending your "Islam never changes" to "basic Islam laws never change?"

 

[Pro Gamer]

If all Muslims believed in Islamic Law why do they behave differently then? Surely they should all just live in those countries where their behaviours matched their beliefs rather than in countries where they have to behave differently, and according to the laws and cultures of these countries. Or are they just hypocrites?

As to our Western freedoms, well such have been built over a long period of time and are progressing rather than receding - at least in the many countries where the right-wing and/or religious don't tend to dominate. Whatever our views as to differences between peoples, the more tolerant attitude will tend to win out over dogmatic belief systems - such as yours - and having lived for over seventy years (in the UK), the changes I have seen have been for the betterment of humans and societies - despite the many deficits of having such freedoms.

If you think that Islam will one day dominate, one has to wonder if so many in the rich Arab states are setting the best example. They seem to be behaving as much like the Western wealthy, and more inclined to worldly wealth than heavenly wealth.

if they establish shariah laws in their countries then westerns will bomb them like they have been doing in past 50 years or so. yeah your "progressive" human rights will oneday progress into something that you won't even recognize as 2023 human rights. 50 years ago lgbt were hated in west but look at how much change took place in these 50 years and it just takes 50 years for all of these western values to change into something else. rich arab states such as qatar has already shown that they won't change their laws for world cup or anything at all

 

[danieldemol]

humans aren't born gay. is it a coincidence that most humans that are born gays are in 21th century but were not seen in past?

They couldn't be open about it in Abrahamic societies for fear of punishment but that doesn't mean they didn't exist in my view.

 

[Pro Gamer]

So are you amending your "Islam never changes" to "basic Islam laws never change?"

islam is what we get from explicit verses of the quran and hadith

 

[Pro Gamer]

They couldn't be open about it in Abrahamic societies for fear of punishment but that doesn't mean they didn't exist in my view.

they were just not many of them prior to west legalizing it

 

[danieldemol]

it is harmful for society as whole but you westerns are individualistic. there is no human right, it's just western right you are talking about. a woman has the right to go naked or sleep with whoever she wants but then what about the child? they will grow up fatherless and depressed. what about a child's right to know his father or get the love from his parents? you guys don't care about these basic rights. you guys just care about rights involving sexuality and your lingering

They grow up fatherless and depressed if their parents get divorced too in my view, but Islam allows divorce.

 

[SalixIncendium]

islam is what we get from explicit verses of the quran and hadith

You didn't answer my question.

 

[danieldemol]

why is death better than living

Well if you enjoy being the gay sex slave of some closeted Muslim from another denomination perhaps its not better, but I don't think so personally.

 

[danieldemol]

quran calls adam a "khalifa" of this world and said we humans are also a khalifa for this world so in its basic meaning if we do our best to establish justice of Allah in this world then we are khalifa that's the concept but you are referring to empire ruler "khalifa" here which is political leader

It is a political leader in your view, but a religious and political leader in the view of some other Muslims. Other Muslims literally accepted it as a pillar of Islam as per the article I referred you.

 

[danieldemol]

then you need to determine who is getting more harm and who is getting more benefits. if 10 people take your properties so isn't more benefits than harm because 10 people are enjoying it while one person lost it?

No I don't, because my principle is not to pretend that harm goes away just because 10 people are enjoying the result which wouldn't even be much of a result by the time it was divided 10 ways in my view.

 

[danieldemol]

they were just not many of them prior to west legalizing it

And the bulk of the iceberg doesn't exist because we only see the tip am I right?

 

[danieldemol]

i am saying our forefather followed the quran and we are following it so it's not following the forefathers but rather we have the same common source of reference for the truth

If you weren't blindly following your Islamic forefathers then instead of having a common source which you inherited you would be able to demonstrate your views are true using reason in my view, so I ask for the third time - demonstrate using reason that gays should be executed and slavery is moral.

Your blanket refusal to do so indicates to me that you are indeed a blind imitator of your forefathers.

 

[Mock Turtle]

if they establish shariah laws in their countries then westerns will bomb them like they have been doing in past 50 years or so. yeah your "progressive" human rights will oneday progress into something that you won't even recognize as 2023 human rights. 50 years ago lgbt were hated in west but look at how much change took place in these 50 years and it just takes 50 years for all of these western values to change into something else. rich arab states such as qatar has already shown that they won't change their laws for world cup or anything at all

Islamic advances like ISIS in Syria? They will have to try harder. Never thought your views might be completely wrong, and coming from a biased education or even indoctrination? I regard my childhood as being quite benign (no particular indoctrination but the usual default religious one), and giving me the chance as to where to gather information and what to believe based on my own reasoning skills - hence basically an agnostic atheist - given that my assessment of old religious texts marks them as not being from God but from human origins. And at least I can blame myself if I am wrong with my assessment. I was probably an agnostic atheist from about 18 too, and nothing has changed this position.

I probably won't be alive to see any changes over the next fifty years, but I very much doubt that progress gained will be reversed, and it is more likely that Islam will have to change if it is to retain members - but of course apostasy will solve that issue.

 

[Kenny]

The vast majority of the world's two billion Muslims already don't "[blow] each other up with bombs strapped to their bodies." Your post referred to "Muslims," but what percentage of Muslims do you think would support such a thing in the first place and would, therefore, need to change their thinking about it?

I mentioned that most Muslims aren't like that. The context is in "Christianity is dying because there are some who are preaching the same thing as before". I'm just saying that Muslims have "some" that are changing things too.

The application was simply that the position that the poster was stating wasn't applicable.

 

[syo]

There were many cultural values and systems in past that were lost in time but Islam always stood. all the western morality you are claiming right now might be seen as immoral in future because cultural values change over time and western values will fade away as well but Islam will always stand. in next hundred years you might not see western liberalism or feminism or whatever but i can gurantee you that Islamic values will remain in next thousand years as well because Islam never changes

Islam is modern abrahamic. I'd gladly throw you to the lions.

 

[Sand Dancer]

you don't look any older

Thank you but I am much older. My current pic was taken 15 years ago but one of my favorites. I wasn't into politics or religion when I was 18. Not sure what I was idealistic about.

 

[Sand Dancer]

it is harmful for society as whole but you westerns are individualistic. there is no human right, it's just western right you are talking about. a woman has the right to go naked or sleep with whoever she wants but then what about the child? they will grow up fatherless and depressed. what about a child's right to know his father or get the love from his parents? you guys don't care about these basic rights. you guys just care about rights involving sexuality and your lingering

We are individualistic and that is not a good thing, IMO.