The Four Dirty Secrets Against Darwin Evolution

[Valjean]

It is. Much, if not most of it, is based on guesswork, not evidence, because what is considered by scientists as evidence does not definitely verify the theory. But if you say so, and scientists say so, that's what counts for you.

Please familiarize yourself with the evidence before you call the scientific findings "guesswork."
What, exactly, does "verify the theory" entail? Is germ theory or heliocentrism verified? How much evidence is needed for a hypothesis to be considered a theory?

 

[Valjean]

While I know there is a controversy about "kinds," I (1) do not believe evolution has really solved the problem/mystery of supposed evolved organisms from -- let's say -- fish to humans. They may conjecture in line with the proposed theory, but that's about it. Because there is nothing to show that this type of evolution happened as proposed in realtime. Only suppositions based on a pre-set formula. But really, from my observations of the theory plus evidence scientists think fit, it does not add up. Or show for certain anything. Thanks though for conversation. I appreciate it.

What steps do you find problematic?

 

[Valjean]

And you know or believe these dates because why?
The more I look at it, the less likely the conclusion from the Miller Urey experiment is how 'life' could have started. There is an interesting article in Scientific American about this. Stanley Miller and the Quest to Understand Life's Beginning

The original evidence and mechanisms from which these dates are derived is available for anyone to review.

 

[Valjean]

none of this matters if it turns out I am right and you are wrong and that is the fundamental point you cannot sidestep.

See the thing is, there are only two basic outcomes:

1. I am right and you are wrong...you lose and I win
2. I am wrong...then we both end up the same way...kaput!

So in reality, I have hedged my bets and cannot really lose. You on the other hand are chosing to stand fast to your ignorance despite the possibility of me being right.

See if one who is an evolutionist was to actually think seriously about this, then id suggest you follow the model of animals. Let me illustrate briefly...

We have horses (and i have used this experiment with wild brush turkey's as well)...

If horses are in view of a horse who appears to be getting food, they all come over to investigate in the hope that they too will receive some despite not having the slightest clue whether or not that will actually happen.

So if an evolutionist was to take the horse illustration to its conclusion, then id suggest that given i potentially am on to something that could eventually result in significant reward the smart choice would be to hedge your bets.

Given the large amount of historical evidence in support of the bible narrative (both internal and particularly external evidence), one should choose Christianity because you have nothing to lose and everything to gain from being one and there are a lot of resources historically that support its narrative...if you bother to actually go and find them to check (which most in your postiion do not bother)

Outcomes and wagers aren't reasonable epistemic tools. They are not evidence. Truth is truth regardless of utility or outcomes.
It's determined by evidence, not utility.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

none of this matters if it turns out I am right and you are wrong and that is the fundamental point you cannot sidestep.

That's an argument that one needs to transcend. It paralyses whoever accepts it. It limits one's life unfavorably. If a different religion making the same argument but with different restrictions and commandments had gotten to you first, you'd be following its rules instead. I make my own rules.

Nobody issues commandments to me or tells me who to hate, and I am the authority in my life. I choose what is right and wrong and am free to live by my own moral code. I decide what is true about the world and how to navigate it. Your religion self-servingly teaches its adherents that that is arrogance and rebellion and threatens them with hell while promising a reward to those who submit and comply - a promise it cannot and need not keep.

Hopefully, you're happy with the choice you made. I am happy to have made a different choice.

So in reality, I have hedged my bets and cannot really lose.

In my opinion, all people who have invested in an irrational and unnatural worldview have already lost. My life changed dramatically for the better when I left Christianity decades ago. I repurposed my time and my outlook on life changed. My goals changed. Submission to an angry, judgmental, irrational god-concept comes at a cost. I know that first-hand.

Given the large amount of historical evidence in support of the bible narrative

There is zero evidence for a god or an afterlife, and quite a bit of evidence against the god of Abraham existing. The rest doesn't matter any more than the Iliad or Odyssee do if Jesus wasn't a demigod.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

At creation, humans did not yet exist.

How did the man name the animals as it says? It appears as if it's all just a big myth to you.

So do you believe there was a great flood and only Noah and his family were saved or is that a myth in your opinion?

What was the Jewish calendar based on? Evidently they really don't even have an idea what year it really is - right?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

It didn't suddenly appear. There isn't a clear, life/non-life boundary.
Didn't you read my post #733?
Nor is there a clear, simple explanation of a long series of intricate steps.
You know you're asking for a whole biology course in a few simple words.

You are saying things evolved. I made the point that you have to have something here first, so it can evolve. (So you have to have life first.) So now I am asking you what your possible scenario is, to get that life to begin with so it could start evolving.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

The Cambrian Explosion occurred about 520 million years ago, more than 3000 million years after the origin of life on Earth.

Pure myth. No witnesses - Only speculation.

 

[exchemist]

Pure myth. No witnesses - Only speculation.

No, there is good evidence for the Cambrian radiation. (Though “explosion“is a slightly questionable description, since it took place over approx 40 million years). The distribution of the fossils in the rocks, and the radiometric dating of strata of that age, are very sound evidence of when it took place.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

do you believe there was a great flood and only Noah and his family were saved or is that a myth in your opinion?

We know for a fact that there was never a global flood. If you' like to know that as well, you'd need to study the science.

I am asking you what your possible scenario is, to get that life to begin with so it could start evolving.

It's very likely the abiogenesis paradigm (chemical evolution from elements to organisms) How about Googling it yourself to see what is proposed and what is already known? Your education is your responsibility.

Pure myth. No witnesses - Only speculation.

Apart from being incorrect, that's an interesting objection coming from a creationist. That's a valid objection concerning creationism or the flood coming from a naturalist - you have no evidence, just speculation - but it seems irrational coming from a person whose own beliefs are unevidenced speculation or worse (contradicted by evidence).

What was the Jewish calendar based on?

This time, I'll give you a thorough answer, one I can only give because I did the necessary studying. That's the way to learn.

It's a lunisolar calendar like the Chinese calendar. The lunar part is that the months are all 29- and 30-day months, six of each in a regular year, making the average month 29.5 days - about the time from new moon to new moon. But that only gives us a 354-day year like the Muslim calendar, which is a lunar calendar. As a result, Muslim holidays come about 11 days earlier every year. Ramadan was a winter holiday in 1998 (it began close to the winter solstice) but fell in mid-August by 2011. To prevent this kind of drifting that results from 354-day years year after year, the Hebrews inserted a leap month approximately every three years to keep spring holidays like Passover in the spring.

The Hebrew calendar is based on the Metonic cycle, a 19-year period that takes advantage of the fact that there are almost exactly 235 moons in 19 solar years, and so there are 235 lunar (or synodic) months in 19 solar (or tropical) years. To avoid the constant drifting of the holidays ever earlier in the year that occurs in the lunar Islamic calendar, the Hebrews introduced the intercalary thirteenth leap month in years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 19 of the nineteen-year Metonic cycle.

The synodic month, or one complete cycle of the phases of the Moon from new moon to new moon as seen from Earth, averages 29.530588 mean solar days in length, so 235 of these months equals about 6939.68818 days. The mean tropical year - from winter solstice to winter solstice - is about 365.242199 days, so 19 of these equals about 6939.601781 days. Those numbers are extremely close to one another. This fact is used to keep the Hebrew calendar from drifting too much. Nineteen twelve-month years of about 29.5 days each is only 228 moons, so to make it 235 full moons, seven of those nineteen years get a 30-day leap month. The Hebrews introduced the intercalary thirteenth leap month in years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 19 of the nineteen-year Metonic cycle. In those years, the month of Adar comes twice and are called Adar I and Adar II, the first a 30-day (leap) month and the second a 29-day month.

Using the Metonic cycle and 29- and 30-day months is what makes that calendar lunisolar. It's months are based in the lunar cycle, but the way they are arranged is based in the tropical year and the fact that 19 of the latter are very close to 235 of the former. Unfortunately, the holidays jump all over the Western (Gregorian) calendar, but they stay within the same season, and every nineteen years, come back to the same calendar date.

Rosh Hashanah begins on Tishri 1 of the Hebrew calendar. This date during the years 2003-05 fell on September 27th, September 16th and October 4th. By 2023, Rosh Hashanah fell on September 16th, again as it did 19 years earlier in 2004 (one Metonic cycle).

The reason the years are in the 5000s is because this calendar has been in use since about 3760 BCE. This year is 5784 on the Hebrew calendar (2024 + 3760 = 5784).

Our calendar, the Gregorian calendar is neither a lunar calendar like the Islamic one nor a lunisolar calendar like the Hebrew one, both of which alternate 29- and 30-day months. Our calendar is a solar calendar and uses seven 31-day months, four 30-day months and a 28- or 29-day month, making all years 365 or 366-day years, and keeps dates like the winter solstice fairly rigidly around December 21st +/- a day. The last two solstices were Dec 21, 2022, 3:47 PM and Dec 21, 2023, 9:27 PM. The next one will be Dec 21, 2024, 3:19 AM.

Bonus question: Why does Easter flit about the calendar like Rosh Hashanah? Answer: Easter's date is based in part on the phases of the moon. Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox (March 21). The vernal equinox part keeps it in spring, but introducing phases of the moon into fixing its calendar date makes it vary between March 22 and April 25. If the moon is full on March 21st later in the day than the vernal equinox, and that day is a Saturday, the next day is Easter. Or, if the full moon was a day or a few hours before the equinox, the first full moon after it - almost a month later - will be April 19th, and if that day is a Monday, then Easter is six days after that. April 25th.

I'm sure that this was more answer than you were looking for, but I felt like writing it out (hopefully, a few will find this interesting and informative) inasmuch as I have recently been reviewing the history of the leap day (bissextus if you want a fancy name for it), which is found in solar calendars unlike the leap month in the lunisolar calendars. Lunar calendars like the Islamic one don't have leap days or months.

 

[Valjean]

How did the man name the animals as it says? It appears as if it's all just a big myth to you.

Seriously?! Think about it.
There were animals around for hundreds of millions of years before any humans appeared.
Most of the animals that were around millions of years ago are long extinct. Who named them? They were replaced with new species. Who named the new species? Was this naming party a one time event? Species come and go all the time.

So do you believe there was a great flood and only Noah and his family were saved or is that a myth in your opinion?

There is no known mechanism that would allow such a flood. There is no physical evidence of such a flood, and there would be. had one occurred.

Geologists, hydrologists, chemists, meteorologists -- anyone with any real knowledge about the Earth, its chemistry, and history, knows there was never any world-wide flood, for dozens of reasons you're apparently unaware of.

What was the Jewish calendar based on? Evidently they really don't even have an idea what year it really is - right?

Huh?

Do you believe you live in a mythological realm of magic, where things appear and disappear out of nothing, the laws of chemistry or physics don't exist, and reality is mercurial, capricious and unpredictable?

Sorry, but Narnia, Middle Earth, and 'Toon town aren't real. Real reality is ordered and predictable.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Do you believe you live in a mythological realm of magic, where things appear and disappear out of nothing, the laws of chemistry or physics don't exist, and reality is mercurial, capricious and unpredictable?

Probably the answer is yes. Ask how, when you type 10 numbers onto a cellphone, it manages to cause just one phone in all the world to ring. Although trusting in phones to do that, I'll bet the science nay-sayers will eventually have to confess they think it's magic.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How did the man name the animals as it says? It appears as if it's all just a big myth to you.

To me, a myth is not a lie, but rather is a very wonderful story. It is literature designed to teach, not a history book or science text. I do think that fiction is the very best way to teach values -- that's why i.e. Jesus chose to teach in parables.

So do you believe there was a great flood and only Noah and his family were saved or is that a myth in your opinion?

Myth.

What was the Jewish calendar based on? Evidently they really don't even have an idea what year it really is - right?

The Jewish calendar is a human invention, based on the lunar month, and adjusted for the solar year.

You are correct. Saying it is the year 5784 really has no meaning. It is most certainly not 5784 years since the creation of the universe, or the formation of the earth, or the existence of life. The existence of the Jewish year comes from a very famous Jewish sage called Maimonides aka the Rambam who lived in the 12th century, and mentally tried to figure how old the earth was based on the flawed idea of estimating the mythological generations in the Torah to be 40 years (I think). Although Maimonides' reckoning became Jewish tradition, he certainly wasn't the only Jewish sage to estimate the age of the earth. For example, Simon Hahasid in the Talmud estimated the Earth's age as 40,000 years. Kabbalists in Spain thought the age of the earth to be more like 900,000 to 2.5 billion years old.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Seriously?! Think about it.
There were animals around for hundreds of millions of years before any humans appeared.
Most of the animals that were around millions of years ago are long extinct. Who named them? They were replaced with new species. Who named the new species? Was this naming party a one time event? Species come and go all the time.

There is no known mechanism that would allow such a flood. There is no physical evidence of such a flood, and there would be. had one occurred.

Geologists, hydrologists, chemists, meteorologists -- anyone with any real knowledge about the Earth, its chemistry, and history, knows there was never any world-wide flood, for dozens of reasons you're apparently unaware of.

Huh?

Do you believe you live in a mythological realm of magic, where things appear and disappear out of nothing, the laws of chemistry or physics don't exist, and reality is mercurial, capricious and unpredictable?

Sorry, but Narnia, Middle Earth, and 'Toon town aren't real. Real reality is ordered and predictable.

Those questions were intended for someone I previously thought did believe what the scriptures said.

 

[Valjean]

You are saying things evolved. I made the point that you have to have something here first, so it can evolve. (So you have to have life first.)

...And there was. Evolution didn't begin until there was something here to evolve.

So now I am asking you what your possible scenario is, to get that life to begin with so it could start evolving.

Again, did you read my post?
Ordinary chemistry will create the building blocks of life: amino acids and proteins; lipid bilayers, tissues and cell walls; nucleotides, nucleic acids and ribosomes; sugars and carbohydrates.No god or intent is needed, just the unguided laws of chemistry and physics.

Self replicating molecules and structures are well known. No god needed.

Structures and molecules interact and combine, forming simple coacervates, proto-cells and primitive proto-bionts. These are observable with a microscope, and their mechanisms of assembly and function explainable and known. Again, just chemistry. No God needed.

Have you never taken a chemistry or physics course? These things work by predictable, natural laws, that can generate remarkable complexity and order. Magic -- divine or otherwise -- is not needed, and has never been observed.

 

[Valjean]

Pure myth. No witnesses - Only speculation.

Witness testimony is well known to be the least reliable form of evidence. Science usually avoids this sort of evidence.

Unlike religion, our knowledge of Earth's history is based on objective, observable, repeatable evidence, not hearsay or speculation.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

We know for a fact that there was never a global flood. If you' like to know that as well, you'd need to study the science.

It's very likely the abiogenesis paradigm (chemical evolution from elements to organisms) How about Googling it yourself to see what is proposed and what is already known? Your education is your responsibility.

Apart from being incorrect, that's an interesting objection coming from a creationist. That's a valid objection concerning creationism or the flood coming from a naturalist - you have no evidence, just speculation - but it seems irrational coming from a person whose own beliefs are unevidenced speculation or worse (contradicted by evidence).

This time, I'll give you a thorough answer, one I can only give because I did the necessary studying. That's the way to learn.

It's a lunisolar calendar like the Chinese calendar. The lunar part is that the months are all 29- and 30-day months, six of each in a regular year, making the average month 29.5 days - about the time from new moon to new moon. But that only gives us a 354-day year like the Muslim calendar, which is a lunar calendar. As a result, Muslim holidays come about 11 days earlier every year. Ramadan was a winter holiday in 1998 (it began close to the winter solstice) but fell in mid-August by 2011. To prevent this kind of drifting that results from 354-day years year after year, the Hebrews inserted a leap month approximately every three years to keep spring holidays like Passover in the spring.

The Hebrew calendar is based on the Metonic cycle, a 19-year period that takes advantage of the fact that there are almost exactly 235 moons in 19 solar years, and so there are 235 lunar (or synodic) months in 19 solar (or tropical) years. To avoid the constant drifting of the holidays ever earlier in the year that occurs in the lunar Islamic calendar, the Hebrews introduced the intercalary thirteenth leap month in years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 19 of the nineteen-year Metonic cycle.

The synodic month, or one complete cycle of the phases of the Moon from new moon to new moon as seen from Earth, averages 29.530588 mean solar days in length, so 235 of these months equals about 6939.68818 days. The mean tropical year - from winter solstice to winter solstice - is about 365.242199 days, so 19 of these equals about 6939.601781 days. Those numbers are extremely close to one another. This fact is used to keep the Hebrew calendar from drifting too much. Nineteen twelve-month years of about 29.5 days each is only 228 moons, so to make it 235 full moons, seven of those nineteen years get a 30-day leap month. The Hebrews introduced the intercalary thirteenth leap month in years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 19 of the nineteen-year Metonic cycle. In those years, the month of Adar comes twice and are called Adar I and Adar II, the first a 30-day (leap) month and the second a 29-day month.

Using the Metonic cycle and 29- and 30-day months is what makes that calendar lunisolar. It's months are based in the lunar cycle, but the way they are arranged is based in the tropical year and the fact that 19 of the latter are very close to 235 of the former. Unfortunately, the holidays jump all over the Western (Gregorian) calendar, but they stay within the same season, and every nineteen years, come back to the same calendar date.

Rosh Hashanah begins on Tishri 1 of the Hebrew calendar. This date during the years 2003-05 fell on September 27th, September 16th and October 4th. By 2023, Rosh Hashanah fell on September 16th, again as it did 19 years earlier in 2004 (one Metonic cycle).

The reason the years are in the 5000s is because this calendar has been in use since about 3760 BCE. This year is 5784 on the Hebrew calendar (2024 + 3760 = 5784).

Our calendar, the Gregorian calendar is neither a lunar calendar like the Islamic one nor a lunisolar calendar like the Hebrew one, both of which alternate 29- and 30-day months. Our calendar is a solar calendar and uses seven 31-day months, four 30-day months and a 28- or 29-day month, making all years 365 or 366-day years, and keeps dates like the winter solstice fairly rigidly around December 21st +/- a day. The last two solstices were Dec 21, 2022, 3:47 PM and Dec 21, 2023, 9:27 PM. The next one will be Dec 21, 2024, 3:19 AM.

Bonus question: Why does Easter flit about the calendar like Rosh Hashanah? Answer: Easter's date is based in part on the phases of the moon. Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox (March 21). The vernal equinox part keeps it in spring, but introducing phases of the moon into fixing its calendar date makes it vary between March 22 and April 25. If the moon is full on March 21st later in the day than the vernal equinox, and that day is a Saturday, the next day is Easter. Or, if the full moon was a day or a few hours before the equinox, the first full moon after it - almost a month later - will be April 19th, and if that day is a Monday, then Easter is six days after that. April 25th.

I'm sure that this was more answer than you were looking for, but I felt like writing it out (hopefully, a few will find this interesting and informative) inasmuch as I have recently been reviewing the history of the leap day (bissextus if you want a fancy name for it), which is found in solar calendars unlike the leap month in the lunisolar calendars. Lunar calendars like the Islamic one don't have leap days or months.

The reason I asked the question, was because I thought the individual I was talking to (Jewish) would know that it was based somewhat around the years given in the book of Genesis. Since I had found out she thought it was myth - I was trying to point that out. I was essentially wondering if the Jews believe Genesis to be a myth, why would they base their calendar around it?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

...And there was. Evolution didn't begin until there was something here to evolve.

Again, did you read my post?
Ordinary chemistry will create the building blocks of life: amino acids and proteins; lipid bilayers, tissues and cell walls; nucleotides, nucleic acids and ribosomes; sugars and carbohydrates.No god or intent is needed, just the unguided laws of chemistry and physics.

Self replicating molecules and structures are well known. No god needed.

Structures and molecules interact and combine, forming simple coacervates, proto-cells and primitive proto-bionts. These are observable with a microscope, and their mechanisms of assembly and function explainable and known. Again, just chemistry. No God needed.

Have you never taken a chemistry or physics course? These things work by predictable, natural laws, that can generate remarkable complexity and order. Magic -- divine or otherwise -- is not needed, and has never been observed.

Do you have any link you could refer me to that would show where scientists have created life in the laboratory?

Where did you get those amino acids, and cell walls, and sugars and carbohydrates , etc.?

 

[Valjean]

Those questions were intended for someone I previously thought did believe what the scriptures said.

Sorry, but when you post in a public debate forum your ideas are open to commentary and debate by anyone reding them. That's what public forums are for.
RF does have a private conversation feature and DIRs you can use.

 

[exchemist]

The reason I asked the question, was because I thought the individual I was talking to (Jewish) would know that it was based somewhat around the years given in the book of Genesis. Since I had found out she thought it was myth - I was trying to point that out. I was essentially wondering if the Jews believe Genesis to be a myth, why would they base their calendar around it?

Not only the Jews but most Christians too, consider the Genesis stories to be allegorical rather than literal descriptions of events. It is only certain fundamentalist Protestant denominations that began insisting on taking them literally in the c.18th and c.19th.