The Four Dirty Secrets Against Darwin Evolution

[Sargonski]

Ah but that is quite different from what you said. This is the discovery of a natural pathway to synthesise RNA nucleotides, the monomer units that comprise RNA. This was in fact discussed on this forum back in 2016, as part of a highly informative thread posted by @sayak83 . Here is the relevant part of that thread: Science of Abiogenesis:- By popular demand

What you were saying, which I was questioning, is that how replicating systems arose has been shown in the lab, under conditions similar to those of the primordial Earth. Showing how nucleotides could be created is a very long way short of that. There is the whole business of what the rest of the replicating system would consist of, how it would be enclosed in a membrane (assuming it would be) , how the nucleotides would be assembled into actual strands of RNA, how the energy to maintain the process would be supplied i.e. the metabolism, etc.

That research was a huge step forward, but all it did was give us a route to one of the major building blocks needed for a recognisable replicating system based on RNA. So it overcame one of the puzzles that had stumped the chemists, that's all.

No .. it was quite the same as what I said - Self Replicating molecules were produced in the lab under conditions similar to Promordial earth conditions. That is how these self replicating systems can arise .. Simple Sugars + primoridal conditions as described .. add some phosphate into the mix and Boom .. Ribonucleotides. How is nucleotides were created - a long way short of nucleotides being created ? been there done that and bought the T-Shirt.

Once you have self replicating molecules .. you now have evolution. Many ideas for selective membranes have been proposed ... the energy to maintain the system is radiation and tidal action

 

[Polymath257]

I can get through those in a tenth of the time it takes to watch most videos and come out far better informed. And I can stop, go back and re-read anything I don't grasp on the first pass. Videos are a poor way to impart information, especially if, as so often, they are tailored to the needs of their least well informed viewers. They nearly always drive me crazy with impatience.

I find I usually watch videos at 1.5x the normal speed. It is still slower than a PDF of a good article. If I try to go up to 2x, I have a harder time understanding what it being said. Articles are *much* preferred because of detail and depth as well as information throughput.

 

[exchemist]

No .. it was quite the same as what I said - Self Replicating molecules were produced in the lab under conditions similar to Promordial earth conditions. That is how these self replicating systems can arise .. Simple Sugars + primoridal conditions as described .. add some phosphate into the mix and Boom .. Ribonucleotides. How is nucleotides were created - a long way short of nucleotides being created ? been there done that and bought the T-Shirt.

Once you have self replicating molecules .. you now have evolution. Many ideas for selective membranes have been proposed ... the energy to maintain the system is radiation and tidal action

You appear to have misunderstood. There was no self-replication in this experiment.

Nucleotides are not self-replicating. You can have a bottle of nucleotides sitting on your laboratory bench and they will not make more of themselves, even in the presence of all the necessary components.

This experiment was a series of reactions that synthesised nucleotides in a set of steps. No self-replication.

 

[Polymath257]

You appear to have misunderstood. There was no self-replication in this experiment.

Nucleotides are not self-replicating. You can have a bottle of nucleotides sitting on your laboratory bench and they will not make more of themselves, even in the presence of all the necessary components.

This experiment was a series of reactions that synthesised nucleotides in a set of steps. No self-replication.

There are known short self-replicator RNA sequences, but I have not seen them from primordial conditions (not to say it won't happen).

 

[exchemist]

I find I usually watch videos at 1.5x the normal speed. It is still slower than a PDF of a good article. If I try to go up to 2x, I have a harder time understanding what it being said. Articles are *much* preferred because of detail and depth as well as information throughput.

Plus, in my view, the chance to go forwards, backwards, compare what was said on different pages, etc., without the tedium of trying to rewind to a point you can't quite identify, then wind on to where you think you were........ With technical stuff I usually find I need to do that quite a bit, to make sure I have understood it properly.

I cannot understand why so many people I encounter on forums like this seem to live in a world in which they rely on video as a teaching aid. I would go insane with frustration at the waste of time.

 

[exchemist]

There are known short self-replicator RNA sequences, but I have not seen them from primordial conditions (not to say it won't happen).

Yes, but that is replication of RNA, presumably by stringing together nucleotides in the right order, rather than replication of the nucleotides themselves from starting materials, e.g. one guanine base nucleotide molecule self-catalysing copies of itself.

 

[Polymath257]

Yes, but that is replication of RNA, presumably by stringing together nucleotides in the right order, rather than replication of the nucleotides themselves from starting materials, e.g. one guanine base nucleotide molecule self-catalysing copies of itself.

Yes, it was replication of the RNA strand using itself as the template, but with sufficient nucleic acids. Getting to that replicator was NOT, at least in what I saw, from anything like primordial conditions.

That said, production of nucleotides is a step that previously was seen as problematic (IIRC).

 

[exchemist]

Yes, it was replication of the RNA strand using itself as the template, but with sufficient nucleic acids. Getting to that replicator was NOT, at least in what I saw, from anything like primordial conditions.

That said, production of nucleotides is a step that previously was seen as problematic (IIRC).

Indeed it was, very much so, which is why the breakthrough in synthesising them was so significant.

 

[YoursTrue]

So He should have left us like chimps. Why did He endow us with inquiring minds and the intelligence to develop effective research modalities, if these were going to lead to our downfall?

Left us like chimps? Who said humans evolved from chimps, did you?

 

[YoursTrue]

There are known short self-replicator RNA sequences, but I have not seen them from primordial conditions (not to say it won't happen).

I am beginning to see that scientific surmisal about certain things like the "big bang" theory, among other postulations, is to a large degree fantasy.

 

[Sargonski]

You appear to have misunderstood. There was no self-replication in this experiment.

Nucleotides are not self-replicating. You can have a bottle of nucleotides sitting on your laboratory bench and they will not make more of themselves, even in the presence of all the necessary components.

This experiment was a series of reactions that synthesised nucleotides in a set of steps. No self-replication.

Your Right - good point -- but, these are the molecules that make up the self replicating structure .. even though they are not actively self replicating at the moment .. or rather .. "Researchers synthesized the basic ingredients of RNA, a molecule from which the simplest self-replicating structures are made"

so we have these components from which self replicating molecules are made.. however they have not assembled themselves into a unit that is activly engaged in self replication ..

These nucleic acids are not sitting in a jar in a lab however. The process of creating these molecules is ongoing .. these molecules combine and form many different combinations .. "As If" self replication was occuring. So nature is doing the replicating at this point .. but not these molecules themselves .. this process however allows for the same evolution as if the molecule itself was doing the replication of itself .. new copies are being produced regularly.

To this add a membrane .. some of these molecules get stuck within various membrane stuctures created in the ooze .. altering the various chemical combinations but also stabilizing the molecule to some degree. and eventually you come up with something that can reproduce itself

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your Right - good point -- but, these are the molecules that make up the self replicating structure .. even though they are not actively self replicating at the moment .. or rather .. "Researchers synthesized the basic ingredients of RNA, a molecule from which the simplest self-replicating structures are made"

so we have these components from which self replicating molecules are made.. however they have not assembled themselves into a unit that is activly engaged in self replication ..

These nucleic acids are not sitting in a jar in a lab however. The process of creating these molecules is ongoing .. these molecules combine and form many different combinations .. "As If" self replication was occuring. So nature is doing the replicating at this point .. but not these molecules themselves .. this process however allows for the same evolution as if the molecule itself was doing the replication of itself .. new copies are being produced regularly.

To this add a membrane .. some of these molecules get stuck within various membrane stuctures created in the ooze .. altering the various chemical combinations but also stabilizing the molecule to some degree. and eventually you come up with something that can reproduce itself

The problem is that they are not replicating or self replicating. They are making new chemicals all of the time. For life to occur the stability of self replication of RNA is needed at the least. And that is only one part of abiogenesis. It is a complex science and scientists are learning more and more and answering quite a few of the questions involved. They have not answered all of the big ones yet.

 

[Sargonski]

The problem is that they are not replicating or self replicating. They are making new chemicals all of the time. For life to occur the stability of self replication of RNA is needed at the least. And that is only one part of abiogenesis. It is a complex science and scientists are learning more and more and answering quite a few of the questions involved. They have not answered all of the big ones yet.

In this particular system .. the system is producing ribonucleotides - Adenine - Cytosine Guanine Uracil ACGU who then go on to form various combinations and linkages. Now .. these molecules are not replicating themselves.. but the system is replicating them .. which is the same thing as a molecule replicating itself .. those molecules then to on to form various combinations and linkages .. sometimes lining up like they do in a short strand of RNA.

So you have this replicating effect going on .. in various ways .. presumably in various places . at the same time . doing this little experiment.. making all kinds of new combinations and permutations .. some of these structures getting bigger and becoming more complex.

Then one day .. these molecules encounter a membrane .. which also form naturally .. now you have a degree of selecticity across a barrier .. allowing for stabilization of the molecules .. and selectivity .. different membranes producing different effects ..

At some point the nucleotides start to line up along the membrane - attracted to the surface and forming covalent bonding .. weak molecular attraction . .. the selective membrane attracting a certain ordering of the nucleotides .. which are also linked to each other .. at certain times you will have chains of these things break off from the membrane .. say 5 or 6 nucleotides .. linked together .. break off and float away .. but then a new one forms on the surface of the membrane .. .. then breaks off

right ? Not quite there yet .. but damn close .. you have a membrane that is spitting out chains of these molecules ... and these chains could get long ..

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I certainly do not know more about the start of life than anyone else. How it may have happened is still up in the air, to use an expression. And yes, I believe, unlike atheists, that there is a Creator who made and started life on the earth. But I agree that no one on earth knows the particular process.

You should think about your first sentence and then ask yourself why you then follow that up with "a creator did it".

If don't know about the start of life, then why in the next breath do you claim that you think a god did it?

What about simply "I don't know"?

Yet evolution would not be possible unless first there was life.

How many more times do we need to go over this?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Left us like chimps? Who said humans evolved from chimps, did you?

We didn't evolve from chimps.
We share an ancestor with chimps.

And our DNA says that.

Facts don't lie.

 

[exchemist]

Your Right - good point -- but, these are the molecules that make up the self replicating structure .. even though they are not actively self replicating at the moment .. or rather .. "Researchers synthesized the basic ingredients of RNA, a molecule from which the simplest self-replicating structures are made"

so we have these components from which self replicating molecules are made.. however they have not assembled themselves into a unit that is activly engaged in self replication ..

These nucleic acids are not sitting in a jar in a lab however. The process of creating these molecules is ongoing .. these molecules combine and form many different combinations .. "As If" self replication was occuring. So nature is doing the replicating at this point .. but not these molecules themselves .. this process however allows for the same evolution as if the molecule itself was doing the replication of itself .. new copies are being produced regularly.

To this add a membrane .. some of these molecules get stuck within various membrane stuctures created in the ooze .. altering the various chemical combinations but also stabilizing the molecule to some degree. and eventually you come up with something that can reproduce itself

OK I agree with your first part but then your post dissolves into "hand-waving". There are massive challenges outstanding to work out how, having got nucleotide molecules, they came to be polymerised into a sequence that triggers transcription into proteins - and all the rest of it: the metabolic processes by which ATP came to provide energy for biological processes, the formation of a membrane (a bi-lipid layer) to prevent the biochemicals dispersing into the environment and so forth.

I don't believe it does anyone a service to pretend we know more than we do.

 

[Sargonski]

OK I agree with your first part but then your post dissolves into "hand-waving". There are massive challenges outstanding to work out how, having got nucleotide molecules, they came to be polymerised into a sequence that triggers transcription into proteins - and all the rest of it: the metabolic processes by which ATP came to provide energy for biological processes, the formation of a membrane (a bi-lipid layer) to prevent the biochemicals dispersing into the environment and so forth.

I don't believe it does anyone a service to pretend we know more than we do.

Its true .. I was hypothesizing ... but it is "educated hypothesizing"

In this particular system .. the system is producing ribonucleotides -rather than the molecule repoducing itself Adenine - Cytosine Guanine Uracil (ACGU) who then go on to form various combinations and linkages with other molecules. Now .. these molecules are not replicating themselves.. but the system is replicating them .. which is the same thing as a molecule replicating itself for the purposes of evolution. ... and it is evolution that I will be arguing. The molecules produced in this system .. many multiples of the same and other molecules .. thens then go on to form then tocombine and form linkages with other molecules

So you have this replicating effect going on .. in various ways .. presumably in various places . at the same time . doing this little experiment.. making all kinds of new combinations and permutations .. some of these structures getting bigger and becoming more complex - some degrading and breaking down.

Then one day .. these molecules encounter a membrane .. which also form naturally .. now you have a degree of selecticity across a barrier .. allowing for stabilization of these bigger more molecules .. and selectivity accross the membrane producing different effects .. different membranes producing different effects.

At some point the nucleotides start to line up along the membrane - attracted to the surface and forming a weak molecular attraction . .. the nucleotides then line up along these attracting sites on the membrane .. some membrane attracting a certain ordering of the nucleotides .. which are then linked to each other .. at certain times you will have chains of these things break off from the membrane .. the bonds between the nucleotides stronger than the weak attraction to the surface .. the membrane will then make another chain perhaps one that is the same as previous .. creating a kind of copying machine

Now --- we have not arrived at self replicating molecule -- but getting damn close. I would argue 2 thigns from this point 1) it is a certainty that these ribonucleotides -- at some point are going to glom onto a surface .. in some kind of pattern .. random and messed up .. but still creating other molecules which are composed of a mixture of these ribonucleoties. -- having them line up on a selective membrane .. in a semi similar way and be washed off the membrane by tidal action or some other phenominon is not much of a stretch from there.

2) I would argue that this is a form of evolution ... molecules getting more complex .. and this process repeated over and over ...

One thing that I can't yet fathom is how life went from asexual to sexual -- that one I can't figure .. nothing I can even think about it makes any sense .. can't come up with even a hypothesis that passes the giggle test.

 

[Polymath257]

I am beginning to see that scientific surmisal about certain things like the "big bang" theory, among other postulations, is to a large degree fantasy.

How is the BB theory even related to this? (answer: it isn't).

And what, precisely, do you see as fantasy about what I said? We *have* self-replicating RNA sequences. We *have* RNA sequences that catalyze biologically important chemical reactions. We now know that the nucleotides can form in primordial conditions. None of that is fantasy.

We certainly have more things to work on: can polymerization of the nucleotides occur? Can longer RNA sequences assemble in primordial conditions? Can we get self-replicators?

Those are still unanswered questions, but given the progress made in this subject, none of those is a 'fantasy' to think would be possible.

 

[Polymath257]

Left us like chimps? Who said humans evolved from chimps, did you?

Nobody. Being 'like' a chimp is not the same as being a chimp.

 

[exchemist]

Its true .. I was hypothesizing ... but it is "educated hypothesizing"

In this particular system .. the system is producing ribonucleotides -rather than the molecule repoducing itself Adenine - Cytosine Guanine Uracil (ACGU) who then go on to form various combinations and linkages with other molecules. Now .. these molecules are not replicating themselves.. but the system is replicating them .. which is the same thing as a molecule replicating itself for the purposes of evolution. ... and it is evolution that I will be arguing. The molecules produced in this system .. many multiples of the same and other molecules .. thens then go on to form then tocombine and form linkages with other molecules

So you have this replicating effect going on .. in various ways .. presumably in various places . at the same time . doing this little experiment.. making all kinds of new combinations and permutations .. some of these structures getting bigger and becoming more complex - some degrading and breaking down.

Then one day .. these molecules encounter a membrane .. which also form naturally .. now you have a degree of selecticity across a barrier .. allowing for stabilization of these bigger more molecules .. and selectivity accross the membrane producing different effects .. different membranes producing different effects.

At some point the nucleotides start to line up along the membrane - attracted to the surface and forming a weak molecular attraction . .. the nucleotides then line up along these attracting sites on the membrane .. some membrane attracting a certain ordering of the nucleotides .. which are then linked to each other .. at certain times you will have chains of these things break off from the membrane .. the bonds between the nucleotides stronger than the weak attraction to the surface .. the membrane will then make another chain perhaps one that is the same as previous .. creating a kind of copying machine

Now --- we have not arrived at self replicating molecule -- but getting damn close. I would argue 2 thigns from this point 1) it is a certainty that these ribonucleotides -- at some point are going to glom onto a surface .. in some kind of pattern .. random and messed up .. but still creating other molecules which are composed of a mixture of these ribonucleoties. -- having them line up on a selective membrane .. in a semi similar way and be washed off the membrane by tidal action or some other phenominon is not much of a stretch from there.

2) I would argue that this is a form of evolution ... molecules getting more complex .. and this process repeated over and over ...

One thing that I can't yet fathom is how life went from asexual to sexual -- that one I can't figure .. nothing I can even think about it makes any sense .. can't come up with even a hypothesis that passes the giggle test.

Yes well I am more impressed by concrete steps in understanding how each of the necessary elements could have arisen. The membrane question intrigues me.

Later Addendum: I have found this rather nice piece of research which, like the one we have been discussing on nucleotide synthesis, has found a "one pot" method, this time for phosphorylating a number of relevant compounds, using DAP, di-amidophosphate: Phosphorylation, oligomerization and self-assembly in water under potential prebiotic conditions - Nature Chemistry.

This could have been capable of generating the phospholipids necessary for a bi-lipid membrane, among many other important features of biochemistry. I have a feeling I have read about this before somewhere and it may also have been involved in setting up the ATP/ADP/redox system that powers the cell. I just can't think where I've seen it.