What has happened to Protestantism?

[Spice]

I'm not sure, but it appears that you may have a misunderstanding. No one out there believes that the Saints are anything more than regular human beings that have simply done something exemplary, like advocate orthodoxy, devoting their lives to the poor, or doing miracles. They are not thought of as "immortal" since clearly they have died. When I say "no one" I am of course including Catholics, Anglicans, the Orthodox, and Lutherans.

Among those churches that revere the saints, they pray to the Saints in order to have the Saints pray for them. These churches have a different concept of "The Church" in which those in heaven are just as much a part of the Church as those still alive on earth.

The "communion of saints" is a doctrine in Christian theology that refers to the spiritual unity and fellowship shared among all believers in Jesus, both living and dead. It is based on the belief that all Christians, regardless of their earthly state (alive or deceased), are connected through their shared faith in Jesus and are part of a single spiritual community.

Thus, for these Christians, asking a Saint for their prayers is really no different than asking the person in the pew next to them for their prayers, with the only distinction being that the Saints are righteous and "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

These Saints are not at all thought of as gods. So talking to them is not the same thing as worship.

Now do I personally think the dead hear us? No. It's not the point. The point here is understanding why these Christians ask the Saints for their prayers, and not misrepresenting them.

I have no misunderstanding of a saints mortality, of their not being thought of as gods, etc. Just as priest, they are used as a go between in prayers, and the like. But the primary difference in Catholicism and Protestantism is needing a go-between. I'm a huge fan of St. Francis of Assisi, but as a man of spiritual wisdom, no more or less than some hermit among the mountains whose heart is filled with the spirit of his Creator without a name.

As Jesus said, "...So the last will be first, and the first last.”

 

[metis]

But the primary difference in Catholicism and Protestantism is needing a go-between.

The vast majority of liturgical prayers involve no go-between with the exception of Jesus, but even many of the other prayers during the liturgy don't even mention Jesus.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I have no misunderstanding of a saints mortality, of their not being thought of as gods, etc. Just as priest, they are used as a go between in prayers, and the like. But the primary difference in Catholicism and Protestantism is needing a go-between.

Catholics can correct me if I'm mistaken, but it is my understanding that having a Saint (or any other Christian) praying for them does not at all prevent them from praying directly to God. Even Protestant Christians ask others for their prayers, and do not think this intercession is wrong. I believe there is a verse in James that exhorts Christians to pray for one another.

I'm a huge fan of St. Francis of Assisi, but as a man of spiritual wisdom, no more or less than some hermit among the mountains whose heart is filled with the spirit of his Creator without a name.

St Francis is one of the very few Catholic saints that I am somewhat familiar with. I have to say that even though I disagree with his theology, I have enormous appreciation in how he cared for the poor and marginalized. I hope you understand by now that Catholics really don't see him as being some kind of immortal being.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well said!!!

BTW, are you sure you're not a "closet Catholic"?

I'm afraid not, my Catholic friend. My own theology is utterly opposed to Catholic teaching. But I think Catholics are wonderful people who value works of Charity, and I'm very big on that. As you know, I've studied the major religions around the world, but I've probably studied Catholicism more than the others. It is important to me to try to understand why they persecuted us so much, and how the holocaust changed their outlook at Vatican 2. I consider Nostra Aetate to be one of the most significant documents in Church history.

 

[Kathryn]

I'm afraid not, my Catholic friend. My own theology is utterly opposed to Catholic teaching. But I think Catholics are wonderful people who value works of Charity, and I'm very big on that. As you know, I've studied the major religions around the world, but I've probably studied Catholicism more than the others. It is important to me to try to understand why they persecuted us so much, and how the holocaust changed their outlook at Vatican 2. I consider Nostra Aetate to be one of the most significant documents in Church history.

And I probably wouldn't even be Catholic today if it wasn't for Vatican 2.

 

[metis]

Catholics can correct me if I'm mistaken, but it is my understanding that having a Saint (or any other Christian) praying for them does not at all prevent them from praying directly to God.

St Francis is one of the very few Catholic saints that I am somewhat familiar with. I have to say that even though I disagree with his theology, I have enormous appreciation in how he cared for the poor and marginalized. I hope you understand by now that Catholics really don't see him as being some kind of immortal being.

Both of the above are spot-on.

 

[metis]

I'm afraid not, my Catholic friend. My own theology is utterly opposed to Catholic teaching. But I think Catholics are wonderful people who value works of Charity, and I'm very big on that. As you know, I've studied the major religions around the world, but I've probably studied Catholicism more than the others. It is important to me to try to understand why they persecuted us so much, and how the holocaust changed their outlook at Vatican 2. I consider Nostra Aetate to be one of the most significant documents in Church history.

Yep, and I think you're aware that I was sponsored on a study of the Holocaust and went to three death camps in Poland and then onto Israel for a week. I was going to be a guide at our Holocaust Memorial Center near Detroit but suffer a serious neck injury that stopped me.

IMO, the churches [note plural] biggest mistakes were tying themselves all too often with the secular powers and the CC is no exception. The worst oppression in German was actually in largely Protestant areas but that's no excuse for us Catholics. The CC tried to stop it but didn't have the power to do as such, so this all is a very mixed bag.

BTW, I think you are aware that I call myself a "Spinoza Catholic", so if you can figure out what that is, let me know.

 

[paarsurrey]

Catholics can correct me if I'm mistaken, but it is my understanding that having a Saint (or any other Christian)praying for them does not at all prevent them from praying directly to God. Even Protestant Christians ask others for their prayers, and do not think this intercession is wrong. I believe there is a verse in James that exhorts Christians to pray for one another.

I agree with the above, indeed the Catholics are a very good people among the Paulines, however I would it like thus:

"Catholics can correct me if I'm mistaken, but it is my understanding that having a Saint (or any other Christian) praying for them does not at all prevent them from praying directly to (One)G-d (whom Jesus used to call G-d the father, not to Jesus god). Even Protestant Christians ask others for their prayers, and do not think this intercession is wrong. I believe there is a verse in James that exhorts Christians to pray for one another. "

In truth G-d likes us to pray to Him for one other.

Regards

 

[Kathryn]

I am a Catholic and while I pray to saints to help me (and they have), I only worship God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I agree with the above, indeed the Catholics are a very good people among the Paulines, however I would it like thus:

"Catholics can correct me if I'm mistaken, but it is my understanding that having a Saint (or any other Christian) praying for them does not at all prevent them from praying directly to (One)G-d (whom Jesus used to call G-d the father, not to Jesus god). Even Protestant Christians ask others for their prayers, and do not think this intercession is wrong. I believe there is a verse in James that exhorts Christians to pray for one another. "

In truth G-d likes us to pray to Him for one other.

Regards

Just curious. Do muslims ever ask for the prayers of others? Or do they instruct fellow muslims to only pray to God?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yep, and I think you're aware that I was sponsored on a study of the Holocaust and went to three death camps in Poland and then onto Israel for a week. I was going to be a guide at our Holocaust Memorial Center near Detroit but suffer a serious neck injury that stopped me.

No, I had no idea! Wow, that's really something.

IMO, the churches [note plural] biggest mistakes were tying themselves all too often with the secular powers and the CC is no exception.

I completely agree, and not just about Christians, but any religion. One only has to look at history to see that when the church (or synagogue, or mosque) becomes the State, bad, bad things start to happen. It's why I'm opposed to Halakha becoming the law of the land in Israel. Religion is good. Government is good. Just don't mix the two.

The worst oppression in German was actually in largely Protestant areas but that's no excuse for us Catholics. The CC tried to stop it but didn't have the power to do as such, so this all is a very mixed bag.

It is very tricky to discuss the Holocaust in terms of Catholics, because there were Catholics on both sides. On the one hand, the Pope hid Jews in almost every convent and monastery in Italy, thousands in just the Vatican alone. On the flip side, the Catholic Ustasha in Croatia was worse than the Nazi Party.

Have I ever told you the story of my favorite talk radio show host? His grandparents were killed in the holocaust and his father fled to the Vatican. They disguised him as a Jesuit priest, and he actually taught Catholic theology for years LOL Oy, such a story!

BTW, I think you are aware that I call myself a "Spinoza Catholic", so if you can figure out what that is, let me know.

Hmmmm I'm gonna have to mull that over for a while LOL

I was actually learning more about Spinoza just a few months ago. You know, I find that just when I think I reached intellectual homeostasis, I go through yet another change of mind. My learning never really stops.

In my last post to you, I mentioned my studies of world religions, and I got to thinking about that. I have often wondered what my life would be like if I had gone for depth over breadth. If I had devoted as much time to the study of Talmud as I have to all the different religions, what a learned Jew I would be. But you know, that's just not me. I'm a generalist. The world I see is like a web, where everything is connected to everything else. I guess either way of thinking is good.

 

[paarsurrey]

What has happened to Protestantism?

Just curious. Do Muslims ever ask for the prayers of others? Or do they instruct fellow muslims to only pray to God?

The answer is in very first chapter:

1:2 All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
1:5 Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help. Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

Regards
____________________
Original Arabic narration/text from Muhammad's time is below:-
1:2 اَلۡحَمۡدُ لِلّٰہِ رَبِّ الۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ۙ﴿۲
1:5 اِیَّاکَ نَعۡبُدُ وَاِیَّاکَ نَسۡتَعِیۡنُ ؕ﴿۵

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What has happened to Protestantism?

The answer is in very first chapter:

1:2 All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
1:5 Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help. Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

Regards
____________________
Original Arabic narration/text from Muhammad's time is below:-
1:2 اَلۡحَمۡدُ لِلّٰہِ رَبِّ الۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ۙ﴿۲
1:5 اِیَّاکَ نَعۡبُدُ وَاِیَّاکَ نَسۡتَعِیۡنُ ؕ﴿۵

Okay, you quote looks to me like your answer is NO, meaning that if i were Muslim I would never ask someone else to pray for me. I will assume this is the case, unless you correct me. And thank you for your reply.

 

[paarsurrey]

What has happened to Protestantism?

IndigoChild5559 said:
Just curious. Do Muslims ever ask for the prayers of others? Or do they instruct fellow muslims to only pray to God?
paarsurrey wrote:
The answer is in very first chapter:

1:2 All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
1:5 Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help. Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
____________________
Original Arabic narration/text from Muhammad's time is below:-
1:2 اَلۡحَمۡدُ لِلّٰہِ رَبِّ الۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ۙ﴿۲
1:5 اِیَّاکَ نَعۡبُدُ وَاِیَّاکَ نَسۡتَعِیۡنُ ؕ﴿۵
OOO

Okay, you quote looks to me like your answer is NO, meaning that if i were Muslim I would never ask someone else to pray for me. I will assume this is the case, unless you correct me. And thank you for your reply.

We can pray for all the worlds as G-d is Lord of everybody a believer or a non-believer.
I also go to the Churches of different denominations and worship houses of other religions just to get familiar with them and get friendly, after telling them after salutations as to who I am religiously, and seek their permission to attend their service, nobody refused me from attending, rather they welcomed me, except the Jews they did not allow so I thanked them and came back without attending :
24:28
O ye who believe! enter not houses other than your own until you have asked leave and saluted the inmates thereof. That is better for you, that you may be heedful.
24:29
And if you find no one therein, do not enter them until you are given permission. And if it be said to you, ‘Go back’ then go back; that is purer for you. And Allah knows well what you do. Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

Right?
__________________
Original Arabic narration/text from Muhammad's time is below:-

24:28
یٰۤاَیُّہَا الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا لَا تَدۡخُلُوۡا بُیُوۡتًا غَیۡرَ بُیُوۡتِکُمۡ حَتّٰی تَسۡتَاۡنِسُوۡا وَتُسَلِّمُوۡا عَلٰۤی اَہۡلِہَا ؕ ذٰلِکُمۡ خَیۡرٌ لَّکُمۡ لَعَلَّکُمۡ تَذَکَّرُوۡنَ ﴿۲۸
24:29
فَاِنۡ لَّمۡ تَجِدُوۡا فِیۡہَاۤ اَحَدًا فَلَا تَدۡخُلُوۡہَا حَتّٰی یُؤۡذَنَ لَکُمۡ ۚ وَاِنۡ قِیۡلَ لَکُمُ ارۡجِعُوۡا فَارۡجِعُوۡا ہُوَ اَزۡکٰی لَکُمۡ ؕ وَاللّٰہُ بِمَا تَعۡمَلُوۡنَ عَلِیۡمٌ ﴿۲۹

 

[IndigoChild5559]

We can pray for all the worlds as G-d is Lord of everybody a believer or a non-believer.
I also go to the Churches of different denominations and worship houses of other religions just to get familiar with them and get friendly, after telling them after salutations as to who I am religiously, and seek their permission to attend their service, nobody refused me from attending, rather they welcomed me, except the Jews they did not allow so I thanked them and came back without attending :
24:28

I greatly admire that you went out of your way to try to understand others not of your faith. I wish others did as much.

I'm so very sorry you had bad experiences with Jews. Jewish response varies. I've known some Jews who were part of highly insular communities, who felt that interaction with non-Jews would risk corruption. It would break my heart that some would not even say Hi back to non-Jews who would great them as they passed by on the street. It's so very sad when things like that happen. I don't think they fully understand the impact that they have on others.

But paarsurrey, not all Jews are like that. I attended a synagogue that was near a local university, and we ROUTINELY had visitors from the religion classes there. Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists... and they were all made to feel very welcome. The Rabbi went out of his way to show them around, let them view the Torah scrolls, and have them sit with Jews during the oneg where they could ask all their questions. I wish you could have had *that* experience.

We also had quite a few Jews who were intermarried, and their spouses attended regularly. While they didn't have membership, we loved them and accepted them as part of our community.

 

[metis]

Have I ever told you the story of my favorite talk radio show host? His grandparents were killed in the holocaust and his father fled to the Vatican. They disguised him as a Jesuit priest, and he actually taught Catholic theology for years LOL Oy, such a story!

Yes, there are numerous stories like that but there should have been even more.

BTW, one of my close friends was in Auschwitz/Birkenau and also was involved in the infamous "death march" from Poland to Germany, and there were things he wouldn't even tell me that he saw happen. His sister and brother-in-law were in our group in 1991, so we all became quite close.

I was actually learning more about Spinoza just a few months ago. You know, I find that just when I think I reached intellectual homeostasis, I go through yet another change of mind. My learning never really stops.

He's a trip! I'm glad you have an open mind and that you study. Maybe someday, we can have a discussion on him and his approach.

BTW, you're probably aware that Einstein stated that he believed in "Spinoza's God". However, if you talked with my wife, she'd tell you I'm no Einstein.

In my last post to you, I mentioned my studies of world religions, and I got to thinking about that. I have often wondered what my life would be like if I had gone for depth over breadth. If I had devoted as much time to the study of Talmud as I have to all the different religions, what a learned Jew I would be. But you know, that's just not me. I'm a generalist. The world I see is like a web, where everything is connected to everything else. I guess either way of thinking is good.

We see things on this at least in a very similar way. I taught a comparative religions course for two years and loved it. However, the possible downside is this: if you have one clock you know what time it is, but if you have several clocks, you'll never know what the exact time is.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

BTW, one of my close friends was in Auschwitz/Birkenau and also was involved in the infamous "death march" from Poland to Germany, and there were things he wouldn't even tell me that he saw happen. His sister and brother-in-law were in our group in 1991, so we all became quite close.

I remember the very first time I found myself sitting next to a woman with the numbers tattooed. I very much wanted to ask her about it, but I was at a loss what to say. I mean, what could I possible ask or say that wouldn't sound amazingly insensitive? All I could think was that if I brought it up, it would just dredge up all the painful horrific memories for her, and I just couldn't bring myself to do that. So I just treated her kindly, and felt honored to daven with her.

We see things on this at least in a very similar way. I taught a comparative religions course for two years and loved it. However, the possible downside is this: if you have one clock you know what time it is, but if you have several clocks, you'll never know what the exact time is.

Oh my gosh, you really hit the nail on the head! And that is not a pleasant experience.

 

[metis]

All I could think was that if I brought it up, it would just dredge up all the painful horrific memories for her, and I just couldn't bring myself to do that.

When at A/B, there were 6 survivors with 4 in our group and two more that joined us there. One was experimented on by the infamous Dr. Mengele along with her twin 4-year-old sister, the latter of which died from whatever Mengele gave her in a shot. Both of them were injected with but likely different formulas. Her sister died in her cage overnight after having convulsions. Our speaker survived but got angry with Mengele at one point and slapped him, so he took her hand, placed it on a marble operating table, took a hammer and busted most of the bones in her hand as it was virtually all scar tissue. She said when she was saved by the allies, her hand look like a duck's foot with the bones inside basically scrambled inside.

 

[clara17]

I was baptized an Anglican a few weeks ago.

I am finding, however, that young Protestants (under 30 or 35) seem to take Protestantism to mean:

1. No liturgy.

2. No Tradition.

3. No Saints.

4. Bible only.

5. Rock music.

Etc.

This is not Anglicanism, the largest Protestant denomination in the world. This is not Lutheranism, either.

What is going on?

Do people think liturgy = RCC?

Saints = RCC?

Tradition = RCC?

I have grown up with Anglicanism and we have and always have had all these things.

Wtf is happening to Protestantism?

by design, its been splintered. counter reformation is far from over

Historical Proof that the Bible is the Truth – ReadTheHistory.com

 

[IndigoChild5559]

When at A/B, there were 6 survivors with 4 in our group and two more that joined us there. One was experimented on by the infamous Dr. Mengele along with her twin 4-year-old sister, the latter of which died from whatever Mengele gave her in a shot. Both of them were injected with but likely different formulas. Her sister died in her cage overnight after having convulsions. Our speaker survived but got angry with Mengele at one point and slapped him, so he took her hand, placed it on a marble operating table, took a hammer and busted most of the bones in her hand as it was virtually all scar tissue. She said when she was saved by the allies, her hand look like a duck's foot with the bones inside basically scrambled inside.

What can one really reply to that.