Brian2
Veteran Member
Yes that is what it says, haven't you read the story?
No it has nothing to do with Hermes.
And in many places in the OT The Angel of YHWH is called YHWH.
Jesus tells us that the greatest in heaven is the servant of all.
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‘Jesus was WITH GOD’ therefore Jesus WAS GOD?
- Thread starter Soapy
- Start date
Yes that is what it says, haven't you read the story?
No it has nothing to do with Hermes.
And in many places in the OT The Angel of YHWH is called YHWH.
Jesus tells us that the greatest in heaven is the servant of all.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Yes it was an angel, in fact it was "the angel of YHWH"
And it was this angel that saved them, the Angel of His Presence.
That Angel is YHWH.
When Moses wanted YHWH to go with them, YHWH told Moses that He would do that, and He went with them as the Angel of His Presence it seems.
Isaiah 63:9
In all their distress, He too was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them. In His love and compassion He redeemed them; He lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Who is the greatest in Heaven?
Is that one who is the greatest, a servant?
Does the potter serve the pot?
The theory is not without its charm, but the evidence is entirely lacking.
Brian2
Veteran Member
God created the universe and us and we messed up and God has done what is necessary for things to go back to paradise conditions and evil to be overcome and for us to live forever.
So God has been serving us all.
But if you want to study the gift of eternal life scientifically before you accept it, that's up to you.
Not only do I think that isn't true, but I know of no basis on which it could possibly be true.
Nor can I think of any moral basis on which, whether it's true or not, it ought to be true.
God never appears, never says, never does. The world behaves exactly as if gods and other supernatural beings were simply concepts and things imagined, each person devising a view of the matter from personal acculturation, education and experience.
Brian2
Veteran Member
People come to Jesus often because of what they says God has done and/or said in personal revelations and also in dreams etc.
Jesus also speaks with people regularly according to the people.
These aren't children but adults who have given up their childhood fantasies.
From what I hear the world is a completely different place than it would have been if Jesus had not been sent by God.
As I said, God never appears, says or does. And the world behaves exactly as if God were a concept, a thing imagines, and not an entity with objective existence.
And tells them what? Winning lottery numbers for the poor? Cures for their diseases? Forewarnings of accidents to their children?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
yes, but it wasn't the angel speaking
yes, but there's a very important verse inbetween... it's what God says to him. I think it's very important.
When it comes to angels, I can only offer an opinion. However, God gets to choose what is or is not part of it.
Here's what I said.
"Moses saw an angel... and heard a voice."
It's true, isn't it?
"The angel was not speaking, and the voice did not come from the angel".
It's also true isn't it?
"But everything that is holy, everything divine is part of God."
You disagree with this? How can something be holy or divine if it is seperated from God?
" There is only 1 divine power."
There's several good verses for this. Isaiah is ideal. Chapter 45, I think starting at verse 5 and for well over half the chapter, Isaiah is converting/convincing Cyrus there is only 1 divine power.
"So moses hid his face because he was overwhelmed by divinity that seemed to be surrounding him."
So, he sees a bush that is not being consumed. That's not natural. Then he hears a voice from the fire, that's not normal. Then the voice tells him... "take off your shoes, the ground you are standing on is holy"... first his eyes, then his ears, all the way to his feet. If you put yourself in the story, can you imagine what that would be like? what you see, what you hear, and even the ground is holy? It's like connecting a curcuit. sight+sound+feel... eyes-->ears-->feet zap! Moses hides his face. It's overwhelming. He's surrounded by something completely supernatural.
Maybe ask yourself this? Why the instruction to take off your shoes? Isn't holiness about connection, communion, with God? Taking off the shoes is an invitation to connect. If the ground is holy, then God is saying it doesn't want the seperation between the feet and the holy ground. I think that's significant. Don't you?
It can't be. The angel appeared to Moses. And Moses saw it without dying.
When Moses is on the mountain, later, after the Exodus, it's written that no one can see God's face. YHWH was the angel in the burning bush, why didn't YHWH tell Moses to hide his face? Instead it says, "take off your shoes". Moses hides his face, but doesn't have to. In fact, YHWH wanted Moses to look at the burning bush. It says so right in the story. YHWH spoke after Moses looked.
From this, it should be clear, the angel of the lord that was in the fire was not The Lord. Couldn't be. But, I stand by what I said. They are connected, because everything that is holy is connected. That's part of what it means to be holy. It's attachment to God.
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Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Brian2, GOD requires a second MAN to recompense for the sin of first MAN, Adam. It is inconceivable that GOD HIMSELF should be that second Man - in fact, that would be totally wrong.
What you propose is liken to like a teacher pretending to be a student to sit and pass an examination as a family child because the first child failed the exam. You are proposing that GOD PRETENDED to become human in order to save humanity.
In your scenario, though you keep saying that GOD and Jesus are ONE THING, you somehow SPLIT Jesus from God (while Jesus STILL REMAINS BEING GOD??) to become a man.
No! Brian2, For as sin, and death by that sin, came to all mankind by the disobedience of the first man, Adam, so salvation comes from one one man who did not sin - the last Adam, who gave his unblemished life as a sacrifice for all mankind.
This claim cannot be true if it is GOD who is that LAST ADAM!
But what of the one who gave his life as that sacrifice? Well, God REWARDED HIM by raising him back up again and giving him a SPIRITUAL LIFE NEXT TO HIM in Heaven AND the RULERSHIP over all that God created.
This spiritual man is to be ruler over GOD’s creation. It cannot be that GOD BECOMES RULER over what HE CREATED since GOD ALWAYS is the ultimate ruler already (I’m not speaking of the administration of the created world - which is given over to God’s angels at this time.)
Brian2
Veteran Member
If you see the angel of the LORD as the flame and YHWH also being present there and speaking from the bush, OK, but I read it as the Angel of the LORD being God's presence there and so when the angel spoke it was YHWH that spoke, not as a ventrilaquist but as being present there in the bush.
Moses though that if he looked he might see God who spoke from the bush, but imo he would not see God but the flame only, which was not God.
The angel appeared to Moses in the flame in the bush and the voice came from the midst of the bush.
I see it as only the angel there and speaking.
When the 3 men came to Abraham near Mamre, 2 of them left and went on to Sodom but YHWH remained with Abraham. He imo was YHWH in the form of a man. It was not the real form of YHWH, so seeing the man was not seeing YHWH, but it was YHWH in the man speaking with Abraham. And I don't see that there was an angel and YHWH, the messenger from YHWH in heaven was actually YHWH.
I see God's presence as what makes the ground holy, but not that the ground is part of God. Either something is part of God or part of creation imo.
The angel that appeared, did so as a flame. Looking at a flame was not seeing YHWH in His glory.
The elders who saw God (Ex 24:9-12) saw God in a form that He had taken to appear to them imo. It was God but with a disguise, so they would not die.
Brian2
Veteran Member
The atonement is not someone recompensing for the sin of the Adam. Jesus atoned for all sin and bore all our sins (Isa 53) not just the sin of Adam.
Jesus became a real man and is a man now. There is no pretense. But this man is more than what Adam was, because He is the life giving spirit who came from heaven, from God, and is the real Son of God and not just a created son of God, a living soul. (1Cor 15:45)
Jesus did not use His divine power to not sin, but Jesus did not sin, as a man, because He has and had the character of His heavenly Father, His nature, His essence.
The Father is the Father and the Father's Son is the Son who became a man,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and is still a man.
The Son became a man and stepped down from being equal with God in all things, imo. Then when He was raised from the dead He went back to being equal with God His Father.
He has equal divine nature and then inherited what was already truly His as the heir of all things anyway (John 16:15) All power in heaven and on earth was given Him and He is ruling over all creation while His Father puts all things under His feet.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Oh Brian2…. Brian2…. Why do you do this???
You say Jesus is a man in Heaven EQUAL TO GOD?
A man equal to God seated next to God…
What happened to ‘Beside(s) me there is no other God’
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I’m glad you know this - but do you believe it?
You mean like:
- ‘If you believe the messenger then you also believe Him who sent the messenger’
God set Jesus apart from those around him and empowered Jesus to act on His (God’s) behalf:
- “what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?” (John 10:36)
Or was it at Jesus’ anointment - which a ‘setting apart’ was a common theme amongst those anointed by God (see examples in the O.T.)
‘Sent into the world’. This is not referring to a ‘coming on earth’ but rather it signifies ‘Facing sin and unrighteousness, Satan and evil’.
Note that Jesus did not face such things before hd was anointed and SENT by God. He lived a quiet, innocuous, unthreatening life in Capernaun / Nazareth working as a carpenter with Mary, Joseph, and his brothers and sisters.
Can you show us where the Son is called ‘YHWH’ in the scriptures, please.
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
"... YHWH also being present there... " Agreed! Also! Is it only there? Jeremiah knows. 23:24
Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? said the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? says the Lord.
"not as a ventrilaquist...."
When words are produced, aren't the lips, teeth, jaw, palette, and diaphram a dummy? It's the will of the speaker that is producing the words? Can any person distinguish in any way the difference between what the lips, teeth, jaw, palette, and diaphram are doing and the will of the speaker? The will of the speaker IS the motion and actions of the lips, teeth, jaw, palette, and diaphram. And the actions and motions of lips, teeth, jaw, palette, and diaphram ARE the will.
The words before they are spoken are with the will, AND they are the will. In the beginning before they are spoken... the words are with the will and they are the will, they are indistinguishable. Sound familiar?
Once the words are spoken, then they contain the will of the speaker. The words are the shell, the wrapper, but they have no will of their own. They are completely subservient to the will of their maker.
Does the dummy have a choice what to say? Does it have a choice in what it does? The will of the ventrilaquist is literally INSIDE the dummy making it move. Kind of like this:
Puppet(Puppet-Master)Puppet ---> The puppet-master is IN the puppet. ----> There is no distinguishing between the two.
John 1:1
λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
λόγος(θεόν-θεὸς)λόγος
Logos(Theon-Theos)Logos
The ventrilaquist is nothing more than a puppet-master. It just so happens you can see them, but their lips aren't moving. But the same thing happens with any puppet show. The puppet doesn't have any will of it's own. The puppet-master is far above pulling on invisible strings to make them move. The puppet is connected to the master always. If the strings are cut, the puppet collapses.
The will of the puppet is not the puppet's will. It has no will of it's own. It does nothing on its own. The will of the puppet is... IN the puppet.
But it's not just the puppet. The entire puppet show is the will of the puppet master. The scenery, is the will of the puppet-master. All the characters are the will of the puppet-master. Every word that is spoken by every character is the will of the puppet-master. The entire puppet-show is the will of the puppet-master. It looks something like this:
Will(Puppet(Will)Puppet)Will
The will of the puppet-master is both the entire puppet-how and the individual actions of the puppet. The Will is in the Puppet AND The Puppet is in the Will. The Puppet is both filled and surrounded with a higher will. And it has no will of its own.
John 12:49: "... I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken."
Commanded is not a choice. All is all. Not a single word was uttered that was chosen by Jesus. Assuming the book of John is true.
John 14:10: "Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.Jesus does not speak on his own. The-Father is doing all the work. Jesus is not doing anything. He is a vessel. He is in the Father (in the will of the father, fulfilling his destiny, that's the puppet-show) and the Father is in him (The will of father is directing everything he says, and everything he does)? Assuming the book of John is true.
PuppetShow(Puppet(Will)Puppet)PuppetShowWhat people see --->PuppetShow+Puppet(Will)Puppet+PuppetShow <--- What people see
What people see ---> Father(Jesus(Father)Jesus)Father <--- What people see
or, maybe...
What people see ---> Father+Jesus(Father)Jesus+Father <--- What people see
Even if a person decides that what they see when they look at Jesus is a Jesus+Father unit, that doesn't change that Jesus is never-never executing his own will. The Father is in him, and he's told you it's The-Father that's "pulling his strings" "doing the work", he is always connected to The Father. This is why it's so, forgive me, unbearbly frustrating for him when people don't listen to his words. They're not his words. They're not his actions. Don't blame him, blame "The-Father". Don't question him, question "The-Father". If you don't know him, you don't know ... The-Father.
angel-Of-The-Lord. What does that mean to you? It's the Lord's angel isn't it. The Lord possesses it. It speaks and does the will of the Lord. Can it do anything that the Lord does not will it to do? Isn't it just a puppet? If it ever chose to do something counter to the will of the Lord, would it still be true to call it "Angel of the Lord"?
When the Lord possesses something, what does that mean? Is it just ownership, like on a sales contract, or a title, or a deed? Or does it mean like a car, boat, or house? Does the Lord get drive the car, sail the boat, and decorate the house? If the Lord chose to do those things, would you deny it? Could you deny it? Could anyone anywhere deny it? If it couldn't do those things, is it true to say that the Lord possesses them?
So, if it's the angel of Lord, and that's who you think is speaking, does it matter? Who's will is directing those words? Isn't the will that matters? If someone hits you with their car, God forbid, do you blame the car or the driver?
This is a very important story to me. Let's start at the beginning OK? What's most important is how God was choosing to reveal itself to Moses.
First, "And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush; and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
bush(fire(flame(angel-of-the-Lord)flame)fire)bush
You're saying Moses only would see the flame.
What Moses saw ---> bush+fire+flame(angel-of-Lord)flame+fire+bush <--- What Moses saw
The angel is concealed. Is the Lord's will in command? I think, I hope we both agree, 'yes'?
What Moses saw ---> bush+fire+flame(angel(Lord)angel)flame+fire+bush <--- What Moses saw
The Lord's will is concealed in the angel, and both are concealed in the burning bush.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The verse says:
And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God (Elohim) called to him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Do you notice the shift Lord vs. God? Just like Eye--->Ears--->Feet is a sequence of expanding revelation. The same is happening with the words that are being used to describe the divinity that is revealing itself to Moses. It's expanding. The eyes are focused, the ears are less focused, all the way down to the feet is the least focused. God is opening Moses' mind. In egypt each god is individual and focused and has its own sphere of influence. That's not YHWH. YHWH is all of that and more.So... it starts out as:
What Moses sees ---> bush+fire+flame(angel(Lord)angel)flame+fire+bush <--- What Moses sees
What Moses hears ---> bush(Elohim-calls(Lord)Elohim-calls)bush <--- What Moses hears
The flame, the fire, and the angel have been replaced in Mose's mind. All three are united and represented by the voice calling. The verse doesn't say that the voice is coming from the fire, the flame, or from the angel. All of that is combined. The entire bizzare sight is calling to him.
The sequence is:
seeing--->hearing
fire+flame+angel---->Elohim
God has revealed that the fire+flame that is seen is holy.
The verse says:
And God revealed as Elohim said, "Do not come any closer; take off your shoes from your feet, for the place on which you stand is holy ground."
Don't come closer. The divine presence is in the fire, but the ground even far away is holy.Fire+Flame and all the ground all around at even at a distance is holy. The revelation is expanding.
Then the verse says:
And The Lord said, I am the Elohei (God) of your father, the Elohei (God) of Abraham, the Elohei(God) of Isaac, and the Elohei (God) of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
God of your father (Amram) ---> into the pastGod of Jacob ---------------------------------------------> further into the past
God of Isaac -------------------------------------------------------------------> further and further into the past
God of Abraham ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------->further and further and further into the past
God is revealing itself in an expansive manner in time AND in space! But the verses all give credit to YHVH for doing the speaking and the revealing. It's YHVH pulling the strings making this happen.
Seeing -----------expands to ----------> hearing ---------------expands to ----------------> feeling
Flame+Fire --------------expands to -----------------> Elohim
God of Amram ---------> God of Jacob ----------------> God of Isaac ---------------> God of Abraham!
NOW Moses hides his face. He is having an encounter with a divine being who is expanding in time and space.
The verses continue, God revealing itself as the name Elohim is saying, I heard the cries of my people, I'm going to save them, you, Moses, are going to lead them. Moses asks who should I say is saving them?
And God said to Moses, Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh; and he said, Thus shall you say to the people of Israel, "Ehyeh" has sent me to you.
And God said moreover to Moses, Thus shall you say to the people of Israel, "YHVH" Elohei of your fathers, the Elohei of Abraham, the Elohei of Isaac, and the Elohei of Jacob, has sent me to you; this is my name "L'Ohlam", and this is my memorial to all generations.
This is the proof Moses is taking back so the people know that it is God, not some false god, and Moses is not a false prophet.
Ehyeh = I AM
YHVH = Yiyeh Hayah V'Hoveh "Will be, was, and, am"
L'Olam = forever, eternity
Present --------expands to--------->future+past+present -------------expands to----------->forever, eternity!
The revelation is complete. This is YHVH the absolutely infinite God in control over all time and space! Where'd the angel go? That got ditched in verse 2. From here on out, guess which name is used for God? YHVH **exclusively**. No more Elohim. Definitely no more angel. Moses' mind has expanded, he believes in an absolutely infinite God. No fleshy-human-god-hybrid. That's egyptian. They had man+priest+king+god hybrids. That's called a pharoah. Moses was being pushed away from that.
Leviticus 11:14+18:3
For I am the Lord that brings you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God; you shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
After the doings of the land of Egypt, where you dwelt, shall you not do; and after the doings of the land of Canaan, where I bring you, shall you not do; nor shall you walk in their ordinances.
But! That doesn't mean that the angel of the Lord is not connected to God. But the Lord is driving that car. And that is how Jesus perceived himself. The-Father was the driver, and Jesus was just the vehicle. Saying they're both the same thing, kind of makes sense, but only if Jesus is completely empty of any will of his own. And "Jesus" is just the outward expression of the will of The Father. Then, sure, the outward expression is all that can be seen. Just like the flame is all the Moses could see. But for Moses, that quickly was replaced. And Moses knew that all of what was happening was under the dominion of YHVH.How can something be holy if it is not connected to God? What happens if something is unholy? Is there any middle ground? Can something be kinda-sorta holy?
OK.... then if you claim that the Angel was Jesus, and the Angel was speaking, then the Angel and Jesus is not YHVH in its glory. And, as the verses state, there is a revelation happening. The "Angel" is replaced by "Elohim" then "Elohim" is replaced by "YHVH", and "YHVH" is the dominant name that is in control of everything.
Agreed?
Great! The angel is God in disguise? The disguise is just a costume, a dummy? The costume doesn't speak or do anything, right? The costume has no will of its own?
Should we refer to God as God in disguise? Should we pretend that the costume is real?
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Brian2
Veteran Member
Yes God is everywhere but it seems that God is especially present in some places, hence the angel of God's presence. It seems to be a matter of where God is specifically acting, or where God's form or will or work is revealed.
That's an interesting way to look at both the Angel of the LORD and Jesus and His actions and words.
I do see angels and Jesus as having wills however and as not just dumming. So to be used like that would be a matter of giving yourself completely to the will of the puppet master, of willing to be used by the puppet master at each moment when the puppet master is working through you.
With Jesus, He was a man with a will and God's Spirit came upon Him when He was baptised and He allowed the Spirit to use Him and speak through Him and do miracles through Him etc.
This is a similar thing to what happens with the New Covenant and believers receiving the Spirit of God. The Father and Son dwell in a believer and the believer can be used by them for doing God's will. But of course most of us are not as open to doing and hearing the will of God as Jesus was. He was so open that He could say:
John 5:19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing.
But of course with Jesus this is more than just being open, it is a matter of the The Father and the Son being one,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but with Jesus having the will of a man and having chosen to listen to and to do the will of His Father at all times.
It has to be like this with Jesus imo or He would not be a human being but a puppet and would not be able to be said to be righteous or sinless if He was a puppet.
I do see angels coming to people in the scriptures and giving their names, but I presume they are still angels and saying and doing what God wants them to say and do. But I also see someone called "The Angel of the LORD" who is sent but seems to carry the presence of the LORD also and to speak as if He is the LORD and have people identify Him as the LORD. Obviously not the same form that God has in heaven, or not the same glory or whatever, but still imo this angel is the LORD but the LORD who has been sent by the LORD.
Interesting concept and not one that a Jew could accept readily no doubt.
I could agree on the disguise God used, but disagree on the identity of the angel through whom God speaks and who identifies Himself as YHWH.
Brian2
Veteran Member
That was an interesting commentary about the verses and what God was doing. It certainly changed the view of God from the local deities of the time etc.
And yes the angel did get ditched, but it could be that the angel revealed Himself and who and what He is, with God being in Him and as Jesus said, with Him being one with God.
God reveals Himself through His Word and in the New Testament we see that this Word is alive and has God in it and is one with God His Father. He is truly Divine.
Certainly as a man, Jesus had His own will and submitted it to the will of God in Him and that also ensured that the 2, the Father and the Son, remained one in all ways.
As The Angel of YHWH we have the same thing but there is no carnal nature of a human there also and so The Angel of YHWH would be acting in His divine nature only without any distractions, and would be able to say, I am YHWH.
OK the ground can be Holy because God is intimately present there, not because the ground has turned into part of God.
Sounds right.
If God/YHWH has transformed Himself into a form that we humans can see without dying then the costume would be real.
The Son did this when He became a man, and His body, even though part of creation, was truly Him.
Imo it is the revelation of the full glory of God which we cannot see and live.
I suppose that means that when Moses spoke to God face to face, it was not the full glory of God that he saw.
I would say that YHWH to whom Moses spoke was the Angel of God's Presence, and as YHWH said to Moses, He YHWH would go with Moses.
Isa 69:8 For He said, “They are surely My people, sons who will not be disloyal.” So He became their Savior. 9In all their distress, He too was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them. In His love and compassion He redeemed them; He lifted them up and carried them all the days of old. 10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit. So He turned and became their enemy, and He Himself fought against them.…
Ex 33:14 And he said, “My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.” 15 And he said to him, “If your presence will not go with me, do not bring us up from here. 16 For how shall it be known that I have found favor in your sight, I and your people? Is it not in your going with us, so that we are distinct, I and your people, from every other people on the face of the earth?”
17 And the LORD said to Moses, “This very thing that you have spoken I will do, for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.” 18 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” 21 And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”
In Isa 69:3 we see that The Angel of God's Presence went with Moses and carried God's Presence and this Angel seems to be the one who is carried them all the days of old, so is identified with YHWH.
The Holy Spirit was grieved and turned against the people and to me it appears that the His Holy Spirit is being identified with YHWH also.
In Ex 33:14 it is interesting that Moses had been speaking with YHWH face to face but here YHWH says that Moses cannot see His face.
Brian2
Veteran Member
You know that Jesus said that He came from heaven.
Why do you think that Jesus was immune from the attacks of Satan and from temptation to sin in His life before the anointing with the Spirit to do the ministry He was sent to do.
Being sinless all His life was part of it.
I can when I look at places in the New Testament which are applied to Jesus and which are applied to YHWH in the OT.
I can when I see in the NT that Jesus is the one who is coming to judge the earth and all judgement is given to the Son, and when I see in the OT that this is YHWH.
And other places also which you have already been told about and which you rejected and act as if I have not told you about them.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Does that mean that you now understand that Jesus is not "another" God? I don't think so.
What happened to "I will not give my glory to another", and we see Jesus shines with the full glory of God?
What happened to "Who is there that can compare with me, who is like me", and we see that Jesus is compared to God and is exactly like God?