‘Jesus was WITH GOD’ therefore Jesus WAS GOD?

[Soapy]

This should be a very short debate:

• If Jesus was ‘WITH God’ how could he ‘BE GOD’?
• Who is ‘GOD’ that Jesus was ‘WITH’?

 

[Starlight]

According to trinitarian christians God is three persons who share one being. So according to trinitarians it is possible to be with God, and at the same time be God. if God is three persons in one being then that is possible

God the son was with God the father. And they are both God since God is three persons in one being. Thats the argument trinitarian make.

I do not believe in the trinity, but i know much about the doctrine and what most christians believe

 

[Colt]

This should be a very short debate:

• If Jesus was ‘WITH God’ how could he ‘BE GOD’?
• Who is ‘GOD’ that Jesus was ‘WITH’?

God the Son was with God the Father from the eternal past.

 

[101G]

"WITH" God means he is God in the ECHAD of Equal Share. "With" simply means another of the SAME, only in a numerical difference just as G243 Allos in the Greek defines. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort.

this another in numerical difference is clearly seen in the OT, as well as the NT.

101G.

 

[dybmh]

This should be a very short debate:

• If Jesus was ‘WITH God’ how could he ‘BE GOD’?
• Who is ‘GOD’ that Jesus was ‘WITH’?

It's not too complicated. It's a little complicated, it might take 3 paragraphs to answer. Maybe 4. It begins with a question.

Who are you?

You exist, in total, as a 2 dimensional being. There is an inner dimension, and an outer dimension. The inner dimension consists of your thoughts, desires, affinities, aversions, emotions, and intentions. The outer dimension consists of your physical attributes and what you do with them. Essentially the outer dimension is your speech and actions and the physical capablility to perform those actions. I will never know your inner dimension. Not truly. I can imagine them. I can guess them. I can project those qualities onto you. But utimately, only you know what's happening internally. You can choose to share those attributes of who you are, but it will only be through your words and actions. Everything I know about you is through speech and actions, what you say and do.

So, in total, you are both your internal attributes and your outward expressions. But, to everyone else, you ARE your actions. You ARE your words. This is who you are, literally, to everyone but you. The only inner aspect of yourself that I can know for certain is, while you are speaking, and while you are performing a physical action, at that moment, internally there is an intention behind those words and those actions. As humans, we aren't always aware of these intentions. That's not important. What's important is that while the action is occuring, whatever that is, there is an internal attribute willing it.

The word is God's way of expressing an internal will or desire to interact with creation. The word itself is the expression of the will of God to interact. As long as the word exists and is interacting with creation, which is an external expression of God's will, there is a corresponding internal intention that defines this word and the way it operates. The word itself is a vessel, a vector, for divine influence which has no will of its own. It carries and expresses the divine will which is delivered to it as a result of the way in which it is defined by God's will. So, it exists fully and is completely defined in both the internal dimension of God's intention ( with God ), and it also expresses God's will in form and function, in revelation, creation, blessings, curses, law, judgements, etc.

Because one can only truly know someone by their actions and words, these revelations, creations, blessings, curses, laws, judgements, etc are what define God, these actions and words ARE God, and they also are with God as long as they continue to exist. The only caveat is that this does NOT mean the the word fully defines God. It is only the outer dimension and the expression of God's will. The word cannot be "fully" God unless one posits that God's internal dimension is only expressed-will and nothing more. That, to me, is a foolish assumption to make. However, I have heard some say that the word is fully divine. That, I think, fits well.

 

[101G]

but it will only be through your words and actions. Everything I know about you is through speech and actions, what you say and do.

The word is God's way of expressing an internal will or desire to interact with creation. The word itself is the expression of the will of God to interact. As long as the word exists and is interacting with creation, which is an external expression of God's will, there is a corresponding internal intention that defines this word and the way it operates. The word itself is a vessel, a vector, for divine influence which has no will of its own. It carries and expresses the divine will which is delivered to it as a result of the way in which it is defined by God's will. So, it exists fully and is completely defined in both the internal dimension of God's intention ( with God ), and it also expresses God's will in form and function, in revelation, creation, blessings, curses, law, judgements, etc.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets," Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

Deuteronomy 18:15 "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;"

HOW COME U DO NOT HEAR "JESUS/YESHUA?

Acts 3:19 "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;" Acts 3:20 "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:" Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." Acts 3:22 "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you." Acts 3:23 "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." Acts 3:24 "Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days."

101G.

 

[Soapy]

If Jesus was WITH GOD, how could he BE GOD that he was with?

Who, or properly, WHAT was the God that Jesus was with?

101G points out that ‘GOD’ spoke HIS WORD through the prophets until the time that He spoke through Jesus…. Jesus, whom He raised up just as Moses, speaking by the spirit of God, prophesied.

So if Jesus was THE WORD that God spoke… what was different about God speaking through Jesus (Old Testament to New Testament)?

Isn’t Jesus THE SAME WORD in the Old Testament as in the New Testament?

If yes, why was it mentioned as a point that God spoke in later time his WORD THROUGH HIS WORD?

It seems to me that trinity has messed up so badly that it can’t admit that it is wrong and will go to any length to try to fudge a reason on how Jesus is the word of God AND IS GOD at the same time in the same way that trinity tries to say that Jesus was WITH GOD AND WAS GOD.

Notice that there is no ‘Third person’ IN THE BEGINNING (trick question… I’ll tell you what the trick is unless you work it out for yourself!)

 

[101G]

to all, understand, God is "a" Spirit, which is one "person", .... "ONLY". one person. who is the Word of God also. Soapy ask some simple question that is Easly answered.

If Jesus was WITH GOD, how could he BE GOD that he was with?

simple he, God, JESUS is an ECHAD of himself as First/Father, and Last/Son which are Ordinal Designations of this "ONE" Person.

Who, or properly, WHAT was the God that Jesus was with?

as said, Jesus was "with" himself, "Spirit" in the ECHAD, and nobody else, in the ECHAD of himself that was to come, (see Romans 5:14).

101G points out that ‘GOD’ spoke HIS WORD through the prophets until the time that He spoke through Jesus…. Jesus, whom He raised up just as Moses, speaking by the spirit of God, prophesied.

God did not prophesied, as to foretell only, but to CONFIRM what he already say before in the prophets of OLD. that's why we should hear him as Moses was in the OT. for this Jesus the Christ is his own ARM, in flesh as a man manifested in person.

So if Jesus was THE WORD that God spoke… what was different about God speaking through Jesus (Old Testament to New Testament)?

answer, speaking directly to us in "PERSON"/Flesh..... (smile)

Isn’t Jesus THE SAME WORD in the Old Testament as in the New Testament?

Yes, but without a body. supportive scripture, 1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:" 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."
so Soapy, WHERE WAS THE "LORD" JESUS, GOD at in the OT? .... answer.... IN, IN, IN, IN, the prophet, meaning as Spirit... Oh this is too easy.

if yes, why was it mentioned as a point that God spoke in later time his WORD THROUGH HIS WORD?

as said his Word is he himself in flesh. because he spoke himself. all the OT prophet prophesied of his coming in person to tell us directly, to CONFIRM what he spoked of in the OT. so that we cannot miss this salvation. did U not READ? Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me." his own ARM is him, God almighty, JESUS the Ordinal Last. (see Isaiah 53). this is just too easy.

It seems to me that trinity has messed up so badly that it can’t admit that it is wrong and will go to any length to try to fudge a reason on how Jesus is the word of God AND IS GOD at the same time in the same way that trinity tries to say that Jesus was WITH GOD AND WAS GOD.

we all have come short of the glory of God, be we trinitarians or not, the pot cannot call the kettle black when the pot is just as black. we all need to stop the finger pointing and all hear the truth. let God be out Teacher, the Holy Ghost. as the scripture states, "ye have not because ye ask not". so, let's all go into prayer and ask God to teach us all.

Notice that there is no ‘Third person’ IN THE BEGINNING (trick question… I’ll tell you what the trick is unless you work it out for yourself!)

lets not trick each other anymore. but edify each other in Spirit and in TRUTH in the Word of God with TRUTH and honesty.

101G

 

[dybmh]

HOW COME U DO NOT HEAR "JESUS/YESHUA?

I do. But there's at least two sides to every story.

we all need to stop the finger pointing and all hear the truth

amen

lets not trick each other anymore. but edify each other in Spirit and in TRUTH in the Word of God with TRUTH and honesty.

amen

 

[dybmh]

If Jesus was WITH GOD, how could he BE GOD that he was with?

As I explained above. The Gospel of John is describing Jesus as the outward expression of God and also God's inner intention. The inner intention is with God, and the outward expression is God. Both with AND is. As log as Jesus exists, the inner intention exists. If that was from the very beginning in perpetuity, then Jesus is with God and is God in perpetuity. Just not fully God unless God is expressed will and nothing more.

Who, or properly, WHAT was the God that Jesus was with?

The creator of heaven and earth, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God of the plagues. The redeemer of Israel.

So if Jesus was THE WORD that God spoke… what was different about God speaking through Jesus (Old Testament to New Testament)?

The way I understand it, the author of Gospel of John would assert that Jesus is a higher source: direct, no interference, a perfect channel. Most prophecy in the OT is the holy spirit resting on them. That is not a perfect channel. The exceptions would be Moses and Bilam.

Isn’t Jesus THE SAME WORD in the Old Testament as in the New Testament?

The correct answer is no, but I think the Gospel of John intended yes. Although, if they were inspired, their inspiration spoke the truth.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

If yes, why was it mentioned as a point that God spoke in later time his WORD THROUGH HIS WORD?

Because revelation operates in two dimensions. Inner/outer. Spiritual/material. The word was contained in the word, and the word expressed the word. First there was a word in the word, then there was a word expressed by the word. Kind of like nesting russian dolls.

It seems to me that trinity has messed up so badly that it can’t admit that it is wrong and will go to any length to try to fudge a reason on how Jesus is the word of God AND IS GOD at the same time in the same way that trinity tries to say that Jesus was WITH GOD AND WAS GOD.

It's just a matter of perspective.

Notice that there is no ‘Third person’ IN THE BEGINNING (trick question… I’ll tell you what the trick is unless you work it out for yourself!)

Sure there is. Not a person, of course, but "IN-THE-BEGINNING" is Genesis 1. The spirit hovered over the face of the water in Gen 1:2. The important detail is, in the gospels, the holy spirit is in Jesus and nowhere else. No one else had it.

 

[Soapy]

As I explained above. The Gospel of John is describing Jesus as the outward expression of God and also God's inner intention. The inner intention is with God, and the outward expression is God. Both with AND is. As log as Jesus exists, the inner intention exists. If that was from the very beginning in perpetuity, then Jesus is with God and is God in perpetuity. Just not fully God unless God is expressed will and nothing more.

The creator of heaven and earth, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God of the plagues. The redeemer of Israel.

This is the only part that is true of what you say.

The way I understand it, the author of Gospel of John would assert that Jesus is a higher source: direct, no interference, a perfect channel. Most prophecy in the OT is the holy spirit resting on them. That is not a perfect channel. The exceptions would be Moses and Bilam.



The correct answer is no, but I think the Gospel of John intended yes. Although, if they were inspired, their inspiration spoke the truth.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."



Because revelation operates in two dimensions. Inner/outer. Spiritual/material. The word was contained in the word, and the word expressed the word. First there was a word in the word, then there was a word expressed by the word. Kind of like nesting russian dolls.



It's just a matter of perspective.



Sure there is. Not a person, of course, but "IN-THE-BEGINNING" is Genesis 1. The spirit hovered over the face of the water in Gen 1:2. The important detail is, in the gospels, the holy spirit is in Jesus and nowhere else. No one else had it.

Ridiculous as always.

I think you are just a joker pretentiously presenting yourself as some kind of scriptural authority but failing in truth at every second word.

 

[101G]

I do. But there's at least two sides to every story.

GINOLJC, to all,
First thanks for the reply. second, no, the TRUTH do not have two faces, and nor two mouths. the TRUTH is not two faced, nor double tongued. there are no options in God Word of truth. Matthew 5:37 "But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."

for the benefit of the doubt what is your other side. 101G will hear you out......

101G.

 

[dybmh]

This is the only part that is true of what you say.

Ridiculous as always.

I think you are just a joker pretentiously presenting yourself as some kind of scriptural authority but failing in truth at every second word.

That's easy to say without giving any reasons.

 

[dybmh]

for the benefit of the doubt what is your other side. 101G will hear you out......

What Jesus preached was important and true, but it doesn't invalidate or replace other important truths.

 

[Soapy]

That's easy to say without giving any reasons.

It’s easy to say (sadly) because it is what you express in your presentations.

Here is one example of what you said:

• “The way I understand it, the author of Gospel of John would assert that Jesus is a higher source: direct, no interference, a perfect channel. Most prophecy in the OT is the holy spirit resting on them. That is not a perfect channel. The exceptions would be Moses and Bilam.”

The Holy Spirit (I say, ‘Spirit of God’, which is the correct description) ALSO RESTED ON JESUS:

• ‘And I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘The One upon whom you see the Spirit descending and abiding on Him, this is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ (John 1:33)
• “For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.” (John 3:34)

So, the SOURCE of the word of God is FROM GOD, YHWH, the Father. Jesus is NOT, himself, the higher source. He himself says:

• “For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.” (John 12:49)
• “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.” (John 7:16)

 

[Soapy]

GINOLJC, to all,
First thanks for the reply. second, no, the TRUTH do not have two faces, and nor two mouths. the TRUTH is not two faced, nor double tongued. there are no options in God Word of truth. Matthew 5:37 "But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."

for the benefit of the doubt what is your other side. 101G will hear you out......

101G.

101G, are you a Modalist?

Modalist believes that Jesus is God, Father, Son, and Spirit of God!!

 

[101G]

What Jesus preached was important and true, but it doesn't invalidate or replace other important truths.

thanks for the reply, but what other important TRUTHS?

101G.

 

[101G]

101G, are you a Modalist?

no.

101G

 

[Soapy]

no.

101G

Then why do you keep saying that Jesus is God, and Jesus is the Father, and Jesus is the spirit of God…. These are all modalist ideology!!

By coincidence I was listening to a Oneness Apostolic broadcast this week where the presenter was trying to speak against trinitarianism! He laid out what he believed, what Oneness Apostolic’s believed, and classed it as MODALISM.

I don’t believe either Modalism nor trinitarianism as they both express wrongful ideology about God being ONE GOD.

The reality is that God did not really claim to be ‘ONE GOD’, but rather, He claimed that He was to be regarded by the Israelites as their ‘ONLY GOD’… this being as a result of the Israelites encountering, and subjected to the pleasures of pagan tribes and nations who held elaborate, infectious, self-indulging, sexual, grotesque, even possibly cannabalistic ceremonies in which many deities (Gods) were worshipped by their individual names. The God of the Israelites told His beloved nation that they are NOT TO BE LIKE THEM - that they should believe in ONLY HIM as their God and HIM ALONE. This is where the ECHAD comes in ‘ONLY ONE GOD’…. Not ‘ONE GOD’.

And as for your unrealistic claim of Jesus being this one only God - that’s ridiculous in every sense given that GOD is the spiritual Father of Jesus and Jesus is the spiritual Son of God. It makes as little sense to say Jesus is both God AND the Son of God… that Jesus is GOD, and the Spirit of God, as much nonsensical sense as Trinitarians claiming that Jesus was WITH GOD and therefore WAS GOD!

Why do you and Trinitarians makes these illogical, nonsensical, contradictory, irrational claims? What do you get from lying about God, grieving the spirit of God (the spirit of truth), and belittling the almighty God; the Father: YHWH?

What did Satan promise you?

 

[101G]

Then why do you keep saying that Jesus is God, and Jesus is the Father, and Jesus is the spirit of God…. These are all modalist ideology!!

why do you think silly like that? is not Jesus God, (Spirit), one person? who holds both titles of Father/Ordinal First, and the title Son/the Ordinal Last? was not the JESUS in heaven and on earth at the same time? let's see. while talking to a Pharisees, named Nicodemus on Earth in flesh, was he not in heaven, (Spirit), at the very same time? John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." so, how is that modalism?

By coincidence I was listening to a Oneness Apostolic broadcast this week where the presenter was trying to speak against trinitarianism! He laid out what he believed, what Oneness Apostolic’s believed, and classed it as MODALISM.

that's not what 101G believes..... (smile). a word of advice.... "quit listening to IGNORANT men, and hear and listen to Almighty God".

I don’t believe either Modalism nor trinitarianism as they both express wrongful ideology about God being ONE GOD.

well Good for you then.

The reality is that God did not really claim to be ‘ONE GOD’, but rather, He claimed that He was to be regarded by the Israelites as their ‘ONLY GOD’…

well that just put you into the same groups u deny. so, you're no different from them..... YIKES!

that they should believe in ONLY HIM as their God and HIM ALONE. This is where the ECHAD comes in ‘ONLY ONE GOD’…. Not ‘ONE GOD’.

and that's where your mistake came in at which is of the devil.

And as for your unrealistic claim of Jesus being this one only God - that’s ridiculous in every sense given that GOD is the spiritual Father of Jesus and Jesus is the spiritual Son of God. It makes as little sense to say Jesus is both God AND the Son of God… that Jesus is GOD, and the Spirit of God, as much nonsensical sense as Trinitarians claiming that Jesus was WITH GOD and therefore WAS GOD!

How IGNORANT. you're worst oof than the trinitarians in understanding God.

Why do you and Trinitarians makes these illogical, nonsensical, contradictory, irrational claims? What do you get from lying about God, grieving the spirit of God (the spirit of truth), and belittling the almighty God; the Father: YHWH?

well lets see who is lying, and grieving the Spirit.

question, "who MADE ALL THINGS?" this is a simple and stright forward question. scripture,

Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

so the "LORD", the One who you calls the Father correct. now this,

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

this is the "Lord" the Word, who is Jesus the Christ.

now Soapy tell us is this the same ONE "PERSON" who ... "MADE ALL THINGS", or is this two separate and distinct PERSONS who Made all Things?

your answer Please.

101G.