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“Let the states decide.”

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
I don't know how much you know about slavery, but it is my understanding that the slaves were not allowed to travel freely.

You're the only one bringing up slavery. Which aspect of our citizenship would equate to slave labor? Also, if federal government holds the reigns, where do we have a voice as citizens? Federal is a broad brushed application whereas greater state authority would better isolate adopted policies per state demographic majority, as opposed to the larger pool of united states citizenship. The freedom to assemble would be encouraged, I'm sure. Birds of a similar or same feather tend to flock together, anyway.

In any case, It's not my future nor my decision. I'm getting older and I don't anticipate much more than 20 years left, if that many. I'll presume it best to encourage upcoming national leaders (Generation Y and Z, specifically) to make these decisions for themselves. It's their world now. At this point, I'm here for the ride as turbulent as it may become.

I'll self-navigate as I see fit for myself, though.
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
Yes, and you kept responding to my comments about slavery.

I thought we were speaking about each states deciding their own policies.

My apologies.

I stay out of abortion issues. It's not my body nor my decision...unless and/or until a pregnancy is planned by the wife and I, at which point I would have a say in the matter. I'm not married, nor do I anticipate going there again, but it could happen.

I'm staying out of how national decisions are made in the future, too. It's not my world, anymore. I'm just a passenger with an opinion nowadays.

"It's time for the kids to step up and take their rightful seats as leaders of this nation." - Me

I'm buckling up

I'm still with you, I'm just not as comfortable in the passenger seat.

My personal vehicle is my own to navigate, though.

 
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Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
And that was my point, that was why I was talking about slavery. Do you think each state should decide their own policy regarding slavery?

Declaration of independence reads that "all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

I would think slavery to be more so outdated than old iron cash registers, and if you consider the implication of the declaration of independence, despite the length of time it has taken to abolish slavery since, among other injustices, slavery shouldn't even be part of the concerned equation, given we continue to put liberty into practice to help ensure continued freedom in this nation.

I would change the wording a little, if only to highlight the premise I hold to be truer: "All people"" are created equal... This is and has been our ongoing struggle in this nation since the revolutionary war began, for our ongoing and increasing independence as a people.

I'd be more concerned about states choosing to drop the legal age for adults from 18 to something lower than. This seems would be the more able than reinstituting slavery anywhere, at least by legal standards aimed for increased liberty among people.

Anyway, I'm unsure how the future will unfold, but I'm holding on to our bill of rights and standing firm on the 1st for the time being.
 
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libre

Skylark
Staff member
Premium Member
It's good for both sides because they can all migrate to places where things best suits them.
The outcome is that abortion would be accessible to everyone with enough money to travel - but poor women's access to healthcare is determined by their geographic fortune.

It wouldn't be that different from how it has always been - abortion has always been available to the mistresses of the bourgeois - but working women suffer the consequences of legal restrictions.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
“Let the states decide. (e.g. on abortion)” is often said by Republicans. Big government bad they say, so we should let the state governments as opposed to the federal government dictate many things of our lives.

To those who say that, why don’t you say “Let the counties decide.”? And if you say that, why don’t you say “Let the cities decide.”? And if you say that, why don’t you say “Let the individual decide.”?

Normally, I like to shoot spitballs at both sides of the aisle. But when conservatives say something along the lines of “big government bad therefore let states dictate everything” it makes me chuckle. That is all.
Having the Central Government decide abortion is a threat to Democracy, since centralized control is really Socialism and not Democracy. When did any Socialist country give up power, to their states? The USSR or United Soviet Socialist Republic enveloped many countries and imposed centralized control. In a true Democracy, the voters would decide and the Central Government would become public servants who makes things happen. Socialism is the other way around.

Abortion is a threat to Democracy, if done by centralized decree. I would actually prefer the individual decide. However, this would mean abortion would have to become similar to the right to bear arms. You would need to provide for yourself, so there is no government quid pro quo, but rather it comes down to your own choice. The Government does not provide guns to the poor or to females who want one, but cannot afford one. If you a single mother with children, within a crime infested DNC run inner city, you cannot request a free gun to protect the family. That mother would need to save her money and buy her own. That is how abortion should be.

If we did it the Democratic way, and each person could decide, abortion would be treated the same way as guns; an adult decision based on self reliance. Rights are for adults and not dependent children. The right to vote is not given to dependent children. Calling crap candy does not make it so. The two year old does not vote or buy guns. Any adult woman can now save her money and make a trip to the next state if need be. This is the 21st century. Women said they wanted to be treated as equal to men, and not place on a pedestal prison.. We need the modern women to man up. States make gun laws but do not provide guns, even with the right to bear arms. Many states set up obstacles, to make sure there is an adult is in the room when guns are bought. We need women to man up and become adults.

Abortion, like slavey, was about human rights. The DNC was/is against human rights in both cases with their stance on slavery leading to the Civil War. Half the DNC wanted a second slave country, that did not see slaves as human, any more than the current DNC sees the unborn as human. In both cases, they tried to rationalize making the slaves and now the unborn, appear less than human, to justify their abuse of both of them via Government overreach. Both could be killed since they were property of an owner; women's body is her slave plantation. Only the slave owner had rights. Sound familiar? The DNC recycles their playbook.

At least if we let the states decide, we will not have another national Civil War. Such wars, if they occur will be more limited to some states The Federal Government can step in to keep the peace. I did not wish to be under a centralized Socialist slave country, where the most innocent among us can be treated like fire wood; sold and burnt. Inhumane is a common thread in the DNC.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The outcome is that abortion would be accessible to everyone with enough money to travel - but poor women's access to healthcare is determined by their geographic fortune.

It wouldn't be that different from how it has always been - abortion has always been available to the mistresses of the bourgeois - but working women suffer the consequences of legal restrictions.
That's why it's a state issue with its people in that state. And it's also good to know there's a choice to go elsewhere whereas in a collective there is no choice.

If one is desperate enough I'm sure they'll find a means to get away from it and go to a place more accommodating.
 

libre

Skylark
Staff member
Premium Member
That's why it's a state issue with its people in that state. And it's also good to know there's a choice to go elsewhere whereas in a collective there is no choice.
On the contrary, if abortion is legal every woman gets a choice.
Where it is illegal, no woman does.

Choosing to make it an issue where states make the decision instead of individuals is to deny human freedom and choice, not expand it.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Having the Central Government decide abortion is a threat to Democracy, since centralized control is really Socialism and not Democracy. When did any Socialist country give up power, to their states? The USSR or United Soviet Socialist Republic enveloped many countries and imposed centralized control. In a true Democracy, the voters would decide and the Central Government would become public servants who makes things happen. Socialism is the other way around.

Abortion is a threat to Democracy, if done by centralized decree. I would actually prefer the individual decide. However, this would mean abortion would have to become similar to the right to bear arms. You would need to provide for yourself, so there is no government quid pro quo, but rather it comes down to your own choice. The Government does not provide guns to the poor or to females who want one, but cannot afford one. If you a single mother with children, within a crime infested DNC run inner city, you cannot request a free gun to protect the family. That mother would need to save her money and buy her own. That is how abortion should be.

If we did it the Democratic way, and each person could decide, abortion would be treated the same way as guns; an adult decision based on self reliance. Rights are for adults and not dependent children. The right to vote is not given to dependent children. Calling crap candy does not make it so. The two year old does not vote or buy guns. Any adult woman can now save her money and make a trip to the next state if need be. This is the 21st century. Women said they wanted to be treated as equal to men, and not place on a pedestal prison.. We need the modern women to man up. States make gun laws but do not provide guns, even with the right to bear arms. Many states set up obstacles, to make sure there is an adult is in the room when guns are bought. We need women to man up and become adults.

Abortion, like slavey, was about human rights. The DNC was/is against human rights in both cases with their stance on slavery leading to the Civil War. Half the DNC wanted a second slave country, that did not see slaves as human, any more than the current DNC sees the unborn as human. In both cases, they tried to rationalize making the slaves and now the unborn, appear less than human, to justify their abuse of both of them via Government overreach. Both could be killed since they were property of an owner; women's body is her slave plantation. Only the slave owner had rights. Sound familiar? The DNC recycles their playbook.

At least if we let the states decide, we will not have another national Civil War. Such wars, if they occur will be more limited to some states The Federal Government can step in to keep the peace. I did not wish to be under a centralized Socialist slave country, where the most innocent among us can be treated like fire wood; sold and burnt. Inhumane is a common thread in the DNC.
Funny thing that you should mention that abortion is a threat to democracy, as the states where the citizens are allowed to directly vote (democracy) are voting out abortion restrictions and voting in abortion rights. Democracy is choosing the right to choose. There are 24 states where there are no provisions for citizen initiated ballot measures--the legislators are the only ones with the power. These are the states that are enacting abortion restrictions. Compare with the map:
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
You still get your rights even if other people die because of it.

No matter how many lives could be saved by moving homeless people out of the cold and into your home, it's still your property and you get to say no.

No matter how many lives could be saved by you donating blood, it's still your body and you get to say no.
First of all, I do donate blood.

Secondly, regarding homeless people out in the cold, many of them are simply impossible to live with.
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
First of all, I do donate blood.

Secondly, regarding homeless people out in the cold, many of them are simply impossible to live with.

It was set up as a biannual, not donations but blood work. 20 plus years of this and I decided I'd cancel the medication that necessitated the work itself. That was about 9 years ago. I haven't donated blood since 2001, if I recall correctly, and I have a tent anyway...not that I need one at the moment, but when or if I do, I have one that can be utilized.

I went to skid row in L.A. back in 2019. It was a tent city on the sidewalks. Kanye West spoke one Sunday at a rescue mission for homeless people around Christmas time. I ended up walking towards east L.A. from downtown L.A. ... Yeah, I thought I could walk it. I ended up in San Gabrial Valley, which is a far cry from San Pedro - Skid Row.

I think I was invited to a cookout by Flea from the Chili Peppers.

He says, "Man, I have plenty of food and you're welcome to come out and eat if you want." I declined, but about an hour later we ran into each other again at a water fountain fairly close to UCLA. I filled up my water bottle, complete with a little orange peel from the farmers market, and a packet of sugar to sweeten it. He was filling up a larger jug. I've been a fan of the Chili Peppers since high school, and I had never thought to think much into it, but it gave me a new perspective on the song "Under the Bridge" and the possible implications of the song itself.

Anyway, I have a tent, and I document current events every now and then. In any case, if it isn't your choice, it should be.

 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
First of all, I do donate blood.

Voluntarily. You're the one who gets to decide if you do.

When abortion is safe, legal and available, plenty of people choose not to have abortions. But they're the ones who get to decide.

Secondly, regarding homeless people out in the cold, many of them are simply impossible to live with.

I guess homeless people be damned.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Voluntarily. You're the one who gets to decide if you do.

When abortion is safe, legal and available, plenty of people choose not to have abortions. But they're the ones who get to decide.



I guess homeless people be damned.
Many are very difficult to live with or live around. Ask me how I know. Or don't, I don't really care but until the issue of when personhood starts is settled, I don't see any of this ending to suit everyone.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Many are very difficult to live with or live around. Ask me how I know. Or don't, I don't really care but until the issue of when personhood starts is settled, I don't see any of this ending to suit everyone.

You've already told us about your brother. That doesn't mean that you can extrapolate from your personal experience to the entire homeless population.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Abortion, like slavey, was about human rights. The DNC was/is against human rights in both cases with their stance on slavery leading to the Civil War. Half the DNC wanted a second slave country, that did not see slaves as human, any more than the current DNC sees the unborn as human. In both cases, they tried to rationalize making the slaves and now the unborn, appear less than human, to justify their abuse of both of them via Government overreach. Both could be killed since they were property of an owner; women's body is her slave plantation. Only the slave owner had rights. Sound familiar? The DNC recycles their playbook.

The Democratic party during the Civil War was about small federal government and state's rights. It is more closely aligned ideologically to the modern Republican party.

Given that in both cases the progressive party of the time wanted the government to abolish slavery and now to allow women the right to make their own decisions regarding healthcare, it is more reasonable to say that they are seeking a protection on individual rights, which should be the main purpose to the federal government.

Leaving it up to states in both cases ends with some people's rights being taken away. The federal government has a duty to protect those rights.

"State's rights" in these cases equates to loss of individual rights.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
You've already told us about your brother. That doesn't mean that you can extrapolate from your personal experience to the entire homeless population.
I'm actually not talking about my brother but thanks for that and for ignoring the rest of my post. WHICH SAID "Until the issue of when personhood starts is settled, I don't see any of this ending to suit everyone."
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Many are very difficult to live with or live around. Ask me how I know.

Difficult enough to let them die? Do you think you should be able to draw that line for yourself, or should society impose one on you?

Or don't, I don't really care but until the issue of when personhood starts is settled, I don't see any of this ending to suit everyone.

In the personhood debate, is anyone arguing that a homeless adult is not a person?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Difficult enough to let them die? Do you think you should be able to draw that line for yourself, or should society impose one on you?



In the personhood debate, is anyone arguing that a homeless adult is not a person?
We're not talking about homeless adults, we're talking about the most innocent of lives.
 
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