“Let the states decide.”

[Revoltingest]

We're not talking about homeless adults, we're talking about the most innocent of lives.

There will never be agreement about fetus personhood (IMO).
The best result is a policy that maximizes bodily autonomy with
minimum gnashing of teeth by both pro & anti abortion types.

 

[Kathryn]

There will never be agreement about fetus personhood (IMO).
The best result is a policy that maximizes bodily autonomy with
minimum gnashing of teeth by both pro & anti abortion types.

Well, for instance, I am generally anti abortion but I would make exceptions, not for myself necessarily but for others, for rape or incest or the actual physical health of the mother. Which are not typical reasons for having an abortion.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Well, for instance, I am generally anti abortion but I would make exceptions, not for myself necessarily but for others, for rape or incest or the actual physical health of the mother. Which are not typical reasons for having an abortion.

They are, in fact, typical reasons for having an abortion. Lots of things can go wrong with a pregnancy and/or with the health of the pregnant person.

There are myriad reasons that are nobody's business but the person involved. I like to save the judgy comments myself, and leave the decision to the people involved.

 

[Kathryn]

They are, in fact, typical reasons for having an abortion. Lots of things can go wrong with a pregnancy and/or with the health of the pregnant person.

There are myriad reasons that are nobody's business but the person involved. I like to save the judgy comments myself, and leave the decision to the people involved.

lol They are not "typical reasons" for having an abortion. At least 88 percent of abortions are for the convenience of the mother.

The reasons for abortion: Statistics, safety, and access

www.medicalnewstoday.com

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, for instance, I am generally anti abortion but I would make exceptions, not for myself necessarily but for others, for rape or incest or the actual physical health of the mother. Which are not typical reasons for having an abortion.

I want a compromise that allows
the pregnant woman more liberty
than those reasons.

If one believes the fetus has a right to
life, then rape & incest shouldn't take
away that right to life (IMO).
A person's worth shouldn't be a function
of circumstances of their conception (IMO).

 

[fantome profane]

If one believes

The problem is when one believes that what one believes should dictate how another one lives.

 

[Copernicus]

I'm actually not talking about my brother but thanks for that and for ignoring the rest of my post. WHICH SAID "Until the issue of when personhood starts is settled, I don't see any of this ending to suit everyone."

We had a very lengthy public discussion in this forum on your difficult personal experience with your brother, so I know that it is an important factor in your feelings about homeless people.

As for personhood, which is an unrelated topic to homelessness, it is delusional to think that it will ever be "settled". What would such a settlement look like? One side of the debate suddenly capitulating? People are all over the place on what "personhood" even means. The issue in the debate over abortion is how the law should treat an embryo or fetus in a pregnant woman's womb. The rights of citizenship are clearly established by law. That does not begin until after a birth. Before then, the fetus has no legal right to be born, although the anti-abortion movement is working very hard to change that long-established fact.

For over half a century, the mother has been able to legally terminate a pregnancy that she did not want to bring to term, but that is now no longer her civil right because of the Dobbs decision. The moral and religious issue of personhood will never be settled, but the legal issue is a very different one. That is what the political controversy is about, and that is now once again a matter of national debate. Given the overwhelming support that people have for a woman's right to choose in this country, I suspect that we will see the decriminalization of abortion at the national level once again in the coming years.

 

[Estro Felino]

“Let the states decide. (e.g. on abortion)” is often said by Republicans. Big government bad they say, so we should let the state governments as opposed to the federal government dictate many things of our lives.

To those who say that, why don’t you say “Let the counties decide.”? And if you say that, why don’t you say “Let the cities decide.”? And if you say that, why don’t you say “Let the individual decide.”?

Normally, I like to shoot spitballs at both sides of the aisle. But when conservatives say something along the lines of “big government bad therefore let states dictate everything” it makes me chuckle. That is all.

I need a metaphor to explain what I see as Big Government.

Big Government is like an enraged protective father that is ready to beat up any person who mistreats his own children (us citizens).

For example in this video...this father whips this man in a pink jacket for cheating on his own daughter.

 

[Copernicus]

lol They are not "typical reasons" for having an abortion. At least 88 percent of abortions are for the convenience of the mother.

The reasons for abortion: Statistics, safety, and access

www.medicalnewstoday.com

Actually, "convenience" has zero mentions in the cited article. There is no reference to "88 percent" of anything. So that just seems to be your personal characterization of the "typical reasons for having an abortion", not anything in the article or the study it was based on to back up your characterization. All you are saying is that you would not have an abortion, if you were in the shoes of the overwhelming majority of women who seek an abortion. They chose differently for themselves, and you do not approve.

 

[Revoltingest]

lol They are not "typical reasons" for having an abortion. At least 88 percent of abortions are for the convenience of the mother.

The reasons for abortion: Statistics, safety, and access

www.medicalnewstoday.com

Do you judge these things to be "convenience"....
Poverty
Mental illness
Unmarried
High risk of passing on bad genetic abnormality
Too young
Too old

Please also address my post #125.

 

[Kathryn]

Actually, "convenience" has zero mentions in the cited article. There is no reference to "88 percent" of anything. So that just seems to be your personal characterization of the "typical reasons for having an abortion", not anything in the article or the study it was based on to back up your characterization. All you are saying is that you would not have an abortion, if you were in the shoes of the overwhelming majority of women who seek an abortion. They chose differently for themselves, and you do not approve.

There's all sorts of references to the 88 percent, which is why I brought up the article, but of course you need to be able to think clearly about matters.

 

[Kathryn]

Do you judge these things to be "convenience"....
Poverty
Mental illness
Unmarried
High risk of passing on bad genetic abnormality
Too young
Too old

Please also address my post #125.

Sorry, been out and about.

Thankfully rape and incest are way, way down the list of reasons why people decide to have an abortion. Like nearly non existent numbers but they do exist.

As for the other reasons, as you said,

A person's worth shouldn't be a function
of circumstances of their conception (IMO).

 

[Kathryn]

We had a very lengthy public discussion in this forum on your difficult personal experience with your brother, so I know that it is an important factor in your feelings about homeless people.

Nope. actually I wasn't talking about my brother at all.

 

[Kathryn]

All you are saying is that you would not have an abortion, if you were in the shoes of the overwhelming majority of women who seek an abortion. They chose differently for themselves, and you do not approve.

So what? You don't approve of many of my thoughts and therefore actions for that matter.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We're not talking about homeless adults, we're talking about the most innocent of lives.

We're talking about when it would be justified to deprive one person of their rights for the sake of another person's life.

Reframing this in terms of homeless adults takes all question of personhood out of it: everyone in this conversation agrees that a homeless person is unquestionably a person. Whatever rights are attached to personhood, a homeless adult has them.

... and from your response, it seems like you disagree with the idea that your property rights should be considered less important than someone else's right to life.

Now you bring up this thing about "the most innocent of lives;" are you trying to suggest that a quality like "innocence" should dictate how entitled we should be to our rights?

... not that it matters, because if fetuses are what you value above all else, we can think of scenarios where it's a fetus's life that's being balanced against your rights. For instance, would it matter to you if the homeless adults are pregnant? If adults AND fetuses are at risk of dying in the cold, would that supersede your property rights?

 

[Kathryn]

We're talking about when it would be justified to deprive one person of their rights for the sake of another person's life.

Reframing this in terms of homeless adults takes all question of personhood out of it: everyone in this conversation agrees that a homeless person is unquestionably a person. Whatever rights are attached to personhood, a homeless adult has them.

... and from your response, it seems like you disagree with the idea that your property rights should be considered less important than someone else's right to life.

Now you bring up this thing about "the most innocent of lives;" are you trying to suggest that a quality like "innocence" should dictate how entitled we should be to our rights?

... not that it matters, because if fetuses are what you value above all else, we can think of scenarios where it's a fetus's life that's being balanced against your rights. For instance, would it matter to you if the homeless adults are pregnant? If adults AND fetuses are at risk of dying in the cold, would that supersede your property rights?

You know what -at least I am consistent. I am opposed to the death penalty as well as abortion generally speaking. Homeless people, I don't know, I'd need to be confronted with it and judge each situation individually. But these are adults, not innocent (there's that word again) babies, or fetuses if you prefer that terminology. And we can't take personhood or innocence out of the equation. For instance, let's take a look at the death penalty for a minute. Why am I not as outspoken about that issue? (Mainly because that's not the topic - I am pretty outspoken about it.) Because the person who committed the crime is rarely innocent. The unborn is completely innocent and very dependent on the mother and on society in general. It needs protection from people who are trying to kill it, generally for reasons I disagree with vehemently. And before you jump on that band wagon, let me remind you that you disagree with many of my thoughts and actions as well, and don't mind calling me out on them at all. At least I generally do not call out mothers or even doctors, though I could.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sorry, been out and about.

Thankfully rape and incest are way, way down the list of reasons why people decide to have an abortion. Like nearly non existent numbers but they do exist.

As for the other reasons, as you said,

Not answering, eh.

 

[Copernicus]

There's all sorts of references to the 88 percent, which is why I brought up the article, but of course you need to be able to think clearly about matters.

I searched for that figure, and found it nowhere in the article. I concluded that you simply looked at the categories of choice and totaled up the ones you felt were wrong choices for those women, because they were "inconvenient" in your opinion. Was I wrong? If so, where did that figure come from?

So what? You don't approve of many of my thoughts and therefore actions for that matter.

I can't read your mind and know nothing of your actions beyond what you write in your posts. I draw my conclusions from those.

 

[SkepticThinker]

lol They are not "typical reasons" for having an abortion. At least 88 percent of abortions are for the convenience of the mother.

The reasons for abortion: Statistics, safety, and access

www.medicalnewstoday.com

There are myriad reasons that are nobody's business but the person involved. I like to save the judgy comments myself, and leave the decision to the people involved.

Someone who's making a difficult life decision doesn't need to be judged and chastised because you don't think their reason is acceptable to you. It's not your life, and not your place to tell others that you think their reason just amounts to "convenience." Women are adults and can make their own decisions.

 

[Secret Chief]

Well, why don’t we let counties decide on abortion? People can just move to the county that has their political views.

You shouldn't have to move because healthcare is politically enforced.