“Let the states decide.”

[Copernicus]

Again, it boils down to personhood and when life begins. And you frankly do not know my history or my lief story.

As you've admitted before, it boils down to the legal status of a fetus in the United States, not some philosophical or religious opinion of "personhood" or "when life begins". We do not need to know your life story, just what your thoughts really are on the issue we are discussing. You can tell us what you choose to reveal, and we can draw conclusions from that.

@Pogo's point is reasonable. If the government is going to force women with unwanted or unhealthy pregnancies to give birth, then it has a moral responsibility to ensure the wellbeing of that child after birth. You tend to vote for Republicans, but the Republican Party is not known for its support of child welfare. Quite the opposite. They are known for supporting compulsory childbirth in pregnant women who would rather not give birth.

 

[Kathryn]

As you've admitted before, it boils down to the legal status of a fetus in the United States, not some philosophical or religious opinion of "personhood" or "when life begins". We do not need to know your life story, just what your thoughts really are on the issue we are discussing. You can tell us what you choose to reveal, and we can draw conclusions from that.

@Pogo's point is reasonable. If the government is going to force women with unwanted or unhealthy pregnancies to give birth, then it has a moral responsibility to ensure the wellbeing of that child after birth. You tend to vote for Republicans, but the Republican Party is not known for its support of child welfare. Quite the opposite. They are know for supporting compulsory childbirth in pregnant women who would rather not give birth.

I do TEND to vote Republican. I am also very much in favor of childbirth vs. abortion and I support that, along with supporting women who choose that option. Without going into my life story or whatever, I have and do support those women.

 

[Copernicus]

I do TEND to vote Republican. I am also very much in favor of childbirth vs. abortion and I support that, along with supporting women who choose that option. Without going into my life story or whatever, I have and do support those women.

Yes, but that was not of interest here. What is of interest is how your compassion for fetuses seems to end when they become babies. You concern seems somewhat inconsistent. Or do you support the Democratic party on universal healthcare, free pre-k, and childhood support in general?

 

[crossfire]

Sorry, I don't just automatically believe the mainstream media.

Is the National Institution of Health good enough for you?

The impact of hostile abortion legislation on the United States maternal mortality crisis: a call for increased abortion education - PMC

The growing restrictive abortion policies nationwide and the Supreme Court decision on Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization place increasing barriers to abortion access in the United States. These restrictions disproportionately affect ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Google Scholar article from University of Georgia:

The Impact of Legal Abortion on Maternal Health: Looking to the Past to Inform the Present

From 1959 to 1980, abortion-related mortality declined by 97%, and maternal mor...

ashecon.confex.com

Abstract:

Abstract​

From 1959 to 1980, abortion-related mortality declined by 97%, and maternal mortality fell by 86%. In this study, we question whether the legalization of abortion over 1969-1973 explains a portion of this maternal mortality decline. Our results suggest that legal abortion reduced non-white maternal mortality by 30-40%, with little impact on overall or white maternal mortality. We also find that early state-level legalizations were crucial, and explain more of the observed mortality decline than the Roe v. Wade decision itself. Overall, our findings suggest that legal abortion substantially improved maternal health for disadvantaged groups.
​

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What about babies? What about disabled people who count on others to help them live?

If a person - disabled or not - needs your body to sustain their life - e.g. they need your kidney or bone marrow - I still think you should have the absolute right to say no.

 

[Kathryn]

If a person - disabled or not - needs your body to sustain their life - e.g. they need your kidney or bone marrow - I still think you should have the absolute right to say no.

See? We don't agree on the unique aspects of pregnancy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

See? We don't agree on the unique aspects of pregnancy.

Since your position on the rights of a fetus is hypocritically unhinged, I would certainly hope so.

You argue that fetuses should be treated as "persons", but then argue that they should be given rights far, far beyond those of an actual person.

 

[Kathryn]

Is the National Institution of Health good enough for you?

The impact of hostile abortion legislation on the United States maternal mortality crisis: a call for increased abortion education - PMC

The growing restrictive abortion policies nationwide and the Supreme Court decision on Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization place increasing barriers to abortion access in the United States. These restrictions disproportionately affect ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Google Scholar article from University of Georgia:

The Impact of Legal Abortion on Maternal Health: Looking to the Past to Inform the Present

From 1959 to 1980, abortion-related mortality declined by 97%, and maternal mor...

ashecon.confex.com

Abstract:

​

​

Abstract​

​

From 1959 to 1980, abortion-related mortality declined by 97%, and maternal mortality fell by 86%. In this study, we question whether the legalization of abortion over 1969-1973 explains a portion of this maternal mortality decline. Our results suggest that legal abortion reduced non-white maternal mortality by 30-40%, with little impact on overall or white maternal mortality. We also find that early state-level legalizations were crucial, and explain more of the observed mortality decline than the Roe v. Wade decision itself. Overall, our findings suggest that legal abortion substantially improved maternal health for disadvantaged groups.​

​

I don't know. Even the article from U of GA skims the issue that WHITE MATERNAL MORTALITY RATES are significantly lower than many other maternal mortality rates.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know. Even the article from U of GA skims the issue that WHITE MATERNAL MORTALITY RATES are significantly lower than many other maternal mortality rates.

"As long as the white maternal mortality rates are low, we're good. I am not a racist."

 

[Kathryn]

"As long as the white maternal mortality rates are low, we're good. I am not a racist."

I'm just pointing out that not all sources are good sources.

 

[Kathryn]

Since your position on the rights of a fetus is hypocritically unhinged, I would certainly hope so.

You argue that fetuses should be treated as "persons", but then argue that they should be given rights far, far beyond those of an actual person.

Is this really what you've gotten out of this? I don't even know why I argue with you, excuse me, DEBATE with you.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm just pointing out that not all sources are good sources.

Is that what you think you're pointing out?

 

[Kathryn]

Is that what you think you're pointing out?

I know that's what I'm pointing out. You can read whatever you want to into it, but that's what I am pointing out.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is this really what you've gotten out of this?

Yes.

I don't even know why I argue with you, excuse me, DEBATE with you.

I don't know why you do it either.

 

[Kathryn]

Yes.



I don't know why you do it either.

Yeah, done.

 

[Copernicus]

Is the National Institution of Health good enough for you?

The impact of hostile abortion legislation on the United States maternal mortality crisis: a call for increased abortion education - PMC

The growing restrictive abortion policies nationwide and the Supreme Court decision on Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization place increasing barriers to abortion access in the United States. These restrictions disproportionately affect ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Google Scholar article from University of Georgia:

The Impact of Legal Abortion on Maternal Health: Looking to the Past to Inform the Present

From 1959 to 1980, abortion-related mortality declined by 97%, and maternal mor...

ashecon.confex.com

Abstract:

​

​

Abstract​

​

From 1959 to 1980, abortion-related mortality declined by 97%, and maternal mortality fell by 86%. In this study, we question whether the legalization of abortion over 1969-1973 explains a portion of this maternal mortality decline. Our results suggest that legal abortion reduced non-white maternal mortality by 30-40%, with little impact on overall or white maternal mortality. We also find that early state-level legalizations were crucial, and explain more of the observed mortality decline than the Roe v. Wade decision itself. Overall, our findings suggest that legal abortion substantially improved maternal health for disadvantaged groups.​

​

I don't know. Even the article from U of GA skims the issue that WHITE MATERNAL MORTALITY RATES are significantly lower than many other maternal mortality rates.

Huh? Those articles are about the significant impact of abortion restriction on maternal mortality of black women. White women experience far less impact. Where do you see that white maternal mortality rates are significantly lower than other maternal mortality rates? The articles suggest the opposite. That's not to say that white maternal mortality is at an acceptable level in the US, only that abortion restrictions have a disproportionate impact on racial demographics.

 

[Kathryn]

Huh? Those articles are about the significant impact of abortion restriction on maternal mortality of black women. White women experience far less impact. Where do you see that white maternal mortality rates are significantly lower than other maternal mortality rates? The articles suggest the opposite. That's not to say that white maternal mortality is at an acceptable level in the US, only that abortion restrictions have a disproportionate impact on racial demographics.

I don't see that white maternal rates are significantly lower than other rates, and that's one of the problems. It's easy to google or bing this information.

 

[Copernicus]

I don't see that white maternal rates are significantly lower than other rates, and that's one of the problems. It's easy to google or bing this information.

Be more specific. What maternal mortality rates are you talking about? And why is that a relevant point to make here? You have more real estate here than on Twitter or Facebook, so please say what you mean rather than just hinting at it.

 

[Kathryn]

Be more specific. What maternal mortality rates are you talking about? And why is that a relevant point to make here? You have more real estate here than on Twitter or Facebook, so please say what you mean rather than just hinting at it.

I'm not hinting at anything. I'm simply stating facts. You can look them up if you want, or not, doesn't matter to me.

 

[crossfire]

I don't see that white maternal rates are significantly lower than other rates, and that's one of the problems. It's easy to google or bing this information.

Maternal Mortality Rates in the United States, 2021

National Center for Health Statistics

www.cdc.gov

44 for black vs 17.9 for white. (per 100k) in 2019. These are pre-Dobbs rates.
I noticed that the maternal morbidity rates for women over 40 is abysmal.

You can download the pdf here as it might be easier to see all the data:

https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/124678