20 Signs that God exist, and Quraan is the word of God

[Riverwolf]

Well the only thing I can do to address your points is search them scientifically and posting them in a scientific sense, but still you would say that this is not the context and maybe this and maybe that. That is why I wanted to direct you to videos in the first place.

Anyways I hope you go to youtube and watch some videos. The point will be more clear. I believe that the more I respond to you the more you will feel that I am forcing a miracle where there is no miracle, and this is false.

So I really hope you seatch the subject.

If the videos can do it, you can do it, too.

If you can't do it, the videos can't do it, either.

The source and presentation of the information doesn't matter; the information is what matters.

 

[Riverwolf]

The word isn't about the past, you don't know the Arabic grammars and i can't debate you in a subject which you are totally ignorant about

No, I don't know Arabic grammar. I don't even know how to say 'hello' in Arabic.

However, Google Translate, which is a source that YOU provided, puts it in the past tense, as do a few translations, one of which is by a native-speaking Arab.

I don't know which one is correct. I'm pointing out that this sort of inter-language ambiguity is unacceptable in any sort of important message, and does not do well for the Qur'an's claim that it comes from a Supreme God, let alone what, exactly, this verse is referring to.

How do you know which came first ?

A few observations:

1. Almost every single ancient mythology states that the Giants (Jotnar, Titans, Asura, or whatever other name) came before the Gods.
2. By my reckoning, a God (which etymologically means 'that which is invoked/worshiped) is made a God by the psychological process of deification. That means that something is a God because a person, or multiple persons, make them so. IOW, the Pharaohs and Caesars were Gods, despite also being human.
3. Most of the Otherworld entities that are the modern living Gods weren't even "born" (for lack of a better word) until relatively recently. The First Gods have long died, except perhaps Pan.

'Course, I don't know for sure. Just current opinions based on current observations.

Thats why i said it was a silly question

And I disagree. There's no such thing as a stupid question, even if the question doesn't have a clear answer yet. If anything, questions that don't yet have clear answers are the BEST questions to ask, because it drives exploration and experimentation to find the answer in the Universe itself.

So was it planned and designed or it happened to be so by chance

Who knows? If it was designed, it's a pretty bad design, all things considered.

 

[Sabour]

If the videos can do it, you can do it, too.

If you can't do it, the videos can't do it, either.

The source and presentation of the information doesn't matter; the information is what matters.

I am not here trying to enhance my skills. If you are not interested in the subject that is fine. My point is not to see whether I can convince you or not. From your respnses to me, I can see that this conversation will go nowhere.

 

[Riverwolf]

I am not here trying to enhance my skills.

If you have the information, you don't need any skills. The information can stand on its own.

What's in those videos that you're unable to do yourself on this thread?

 

[FearGod]

No, I don't know Arabic grammar. I don't even know how to say 'hello' in Arabic.

However, Google Translate, which is a source that YOU provided, puts it in the past tense, as do a few translations, one of which is by a native-speaking Arab.

I don't know which one is correct. I'm pointing out that this sort of inter-language ambiguity is unacceptable in any sort of important message, and does not do well for the Qur'an's claim that it comes from a Supreme God, let alone what, exactly, this verse is referring to.

Google translator gives the meaning of the word and not it's grammar, Arabic grammar is complicated and explaining it to you is useless.

[youtube]6T7dGG6lDJs[/youtube]
Get to know the miracles of the Quran(Learn Arabic!) (1-6) - YouTube

[youtube]d-oFg5OMGt0[/youtube]
Get to know the Miracles of the Quran(Learn Arabic!) (2-6) - YouTube

[youtube]c8W2SZdAJtI[/youtube]
Get to know the miracles of the Quran (Learn Arabic!) (3-6) - YouTube

[youtube]w2h7u2IKJ74[/youtube]
Get to know the Miracles of the Quran(Learn Arabic!) (4-6) - YouTube

[youtube]Q_-nUdFizr8[/youtube]
Get to know the miracles of the Quran(Learn Arabic!) (5-6) - YouTube

[youtube]WXhHgW5S_ys[/youtube]
Get to know the miracles of the Quran(Learn Arabic!) (6-6) - YouTube

A few observations:

1. Almost every single ancient mythology states that the Giants (Jotnar, Titans, Asura, or whatever other name) came before the Gods.
2. By my reckoning, a God (which etymologically means 'that which is invoked/worshiped) is made a God by the psychological process of deification. That means that something is a God because a person, or multiple persons, make them so. IOW, the Pharaohs and Caesars were Gods, despite also being human.
3. Most of the Otherworld entities that are the modern living Gods weren't even "born" (for lack of a better word) until relatively recently. The First Gods have long died, except perhaps Pan.

'Course, I don't know for sure. Just current opinions based on current observations.

Those are observations, they are meaningless and has nothing to do with facts.

And I disagree. There's no such thing as a stupid question, even if the question doesn't have a clear answer yet. If anything, questions that don't yet have clear answers are the BEST questions to ask, because it drives exploration and experimentation to find the answer in the Universe itself.

That is your opinion, mine is different than yours.

Who knows? If it was designed, it's a pretty bad design, all things considered.

You see it as a bad design, i see it as an amazing and puzzling universe.

 

[Draupadi]

Yes, I also feel that learning Arabic is important because different translators translate differently. Some translators say that the Quran allows to beat one's wives and others that it just means desertion. Why such a huge difference? If anyone can learn Arabic then he/she will get the true meaning.

 

[Riverwolf]

Google translator gives the meaning of the word and not it's grammar, Arabic grammar is complicated and explaining it to you is useless.

Yes, it would be. Like I said, I don't even know how to say 'hello' in Arabic. Best I've got is that English uses a variant of Arabic numerals.

My point, however, stands. Perhaps using a language with such a complicated grammar system, especially when compared to the language that would be dominant during the Information Age, was a bad idea.

If I were God, I would have revealed several Qur'ans: one for each part of the world and language families, with several passages that are exact equivalents, which would serve as a Rosetta Stone of sorts. In addition to the poetry, I would have included clear scientific facts that would have been unknown to the world at the time, which are absolutely clear about the way the world works. I also would have revealed the secrets of silicon, binary mathematics, controlling electricity, and other things that would have allowed the creation of computers, the internet, etc. so that the Information Age could have come much sooner, allowing cross-cultural communication and confirmation.

The facts that the Qur'an comes from one part of the world, and its lore is intimately tied to Arabic culture, it only exists properly in Arabic with translations requiring humans, and the requirement for a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once, are just a few of the indications to me that it's not from a Supreme God but at best local Arabic God.

And by the way, if you're following my discussion with One-Answer, you should know that linking to Youtube videos won't do any good with me. Whatever information they contain can be provided by you in your own words. I used to link to youtube videos myself as part of my arguments; I don't anymore for that very reason. The only time a youtube video should enter a discussion as a source would be if the discussion or debate is ABOUT the video in question, or its creator.

Those are observations, they are meaningless and has nothing to do with facts.

And neither do those Qur'an verses.

In these matters of Gods, facts are meaningless. Facts are objective: the domain of scientific inquiry. The Otherworld appears different for everyone who goes there, and so knowledge of "facts" must be discarded, lest ye be driven mad by the angles which appear to be acute yet act as if obtuse.

That is your opinion, mine is different than yours.

I know. But how is anyone supposed to learn if questions that come from a place of genuine confusion are dismissed as "stupid" because we find the answers obvious ourselves?

You see it as a bad design, i see it as an amazing and puzzling universe.

Actually, that's also how I see it. I don't see it as bad design at all; I said that it WOULD be bad design if it were designed by some Supreme God.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes, I also feel that learning Arabic is important because different translators translate differently. Some translators say that the Quran allows to beat one's wives and others that it just means desertion. Why such a huge difference? If anyone can learn Arabic then he/she will get the true meaning.

I've also heard as much regarding the Torah requiring an understanding of Hebrew, and I do believe it. Language is an aspect of cultural expression, and translations to languages spoken by completely different cultures WILL inevitably lose many subtleties no matter how fluent the translator is in both languages and cultural nuances.

Proper study of Shakespeare requires learning both Modern English and Early Modern English (which are almost distinct languages from each other).
Anyone wanting to properly study the Kalevala should learn Finnish.
Proper understanding of the Vedas is pretty much the same thing as proper understanding of Vedic Sanskrit.
I, myself, intend to learn Japanese so I can better appreciate and understand Shin Megami Tensei, Death Note, Shichinin no Samura, Bushido Shoshinshu, etc.

But as a native English speaker, I don't really need to learn Anglo-Saxon(Old English) to properly understand Beowulf, or learn German to know the lessons of Grimm's Fairy Tales, or learn Old Norse to properly interpret the Edda, because we're all in the same family of Germanic languages, and share cultural and linguistic commonalities.

Thing is, for us non-Muslims, there's no imperative for us to learn Arabic. It's also up there with Japanese, Cantonese, Mandarin, and Korean as one of the hardest languages for an English speaker to learn. (Though Japanese, which I intend to learn, arguably stands right there at the top, and what knowledge I do have of the language makes me agree fully with that assessment.) For the reasons I stated in the above post, that doesn't do well for the credibility of the Qur'an's claim that it comes from a Supreme God, in my opinion.