Triumphant_Loser
Libertarian Egalitarian
I don't refer to what plumbers do as a definition of plumbing.
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20 Signs that God exist, and Quraan is the word of God
- Thread starter Sabour
- Start date
I don't refer to what plumbers do as a definition of plumbing.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Triumphant_Loser
Libertarian Egalitarian
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
So do you think all Scotsmen are gangsters.
But of course it isn't right to say "true Scotsmen wouldn't do this" but the right thing to say that there is no relation between being a Scotsman and being a gangster and as well there is no relation of being a bad Muslim and Islam.
Not yet understood,then let me talk with Antony Flew(if still alive) as his example i think is a stupid one.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Sign 23
And We took the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers pursued them in tyranny and enmity until, when drowning overtook him, he said, "I believe that there is no deity except that in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of the Muslims."(10:90)
Now? And you had disobeyed [Him] before and were of the corrupters?(10:91)
So today We will save you in body that you may be to those who succeed you a sign. And indeed, many among the people, of Our signs, are heedless (10:92)
[youtube]CvL-yUX5vKc[/youtube]
Big Signs (Pharaoh - A Sign part 1) - YouTube
And We took the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers pursued them in tyranny and enmity until, when drowning overtook him, he said, "I believe that there is no deity except that in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of the Muslims."(10:90)
Now? And you had disobeyed [Him] before and were of the corrupters?(10:91)
So today We will save you in body that you may be to those who succeed you a sign. And indeed, many among the people, of Our signs, are heedless (10:92)
[youtube]CvL-yUX5vKc[/youtube]
Big Signs (Pharaoh - A Sign part 1) - YouTube
Sabour
Well-Known Member
Islam is a system of life. Plumbing is a job.
Do you refer to Christianity as what Christians do?
Triumphant_Loser
Libertarian Egalitarian
Anything done in the name of their religion, yes. If you strap a bomb to your chest and run into a building for the sake of Islam... You are... what a surprise... Representing Islam. But by that same token, if someone donates to charity and feeds the poor in the name of Islam, they also are representing Islam. My view of Islam is basically the same as every other religion. A mixture of both good and bad.
Sabour
Well-Known Member
Is there a difference between someone claiming to do things in the name of religion and one who is truly doing something because of religion. Or it is the same ?
[youtube]Jy9tNyp03M0[/youtube]
Mehdi Hasan | Islam Is A Peaceful Religion | Oxford Union - YouTube
And some people do it for their public image. I don't say oh look .. See what Islam teaches.
However if a poor guy was giving charity, I would say look what Islam teaches.
My view on Islam is perfect. Taken out of context and being associated to what some called muslims do make it look bad.
McBell
Unbound
no True Scotsman fallacy.
yes, you cherry pick what you like and dismiss what you dislike.
That is merely standard operating procedure for religious.
My view is that no religion is perfect.
But then, I am not closing an eye to the things I dislike...
Sabour
Well-Known Member
You can think what you want. But I hope you take a view from the other side.
I don't know if you are generalizing about religions or you really have your thoughts about Islam.
I'm only quoting the verses, to keep this all in one post, but know that I did read your commentary to the verses.
First of all, string theory isn't the only theoretical framework for the universe, and like other quantum mechanic sciences, is highly complex and shouldn't be referred to unless one has intimate knowledge of the subject, which only comes from years of study.
Second of all, the universe is ALL things, including the Earth. I'm pretty sure Islam regards Heaven and Earth as different things.
Finally, it's actually far more likely that these "paths" are referring to the movements of the Sun, Moon, Planets, and Fixed Stars of the Ptolemic Geocentric model, which was the standard model of the universe at that time.
Therefore, this is not a real "scientific miracle".
Iron wasn't the first metal to be utilized in technology: copper was, and then bronze. Bronze was the first metal to be made into swords. Even before metal was utilized, stone weapons were well-used.
Furthermore, iron has formed on the Earth natively, based on some quick research.
Therefore, not only is this not a valid "scientific miracle", it's outright incorrect.
Saying that the sun will go for a "specified term" is not a "scientific miracle", because the exact duration of that term has not been given.
Furthermore, this verse is referring both to the sun and moon. Before talking about a "specified term", there is mention of the two "running their course". That is likely referring to their apparent movements across the sky, which do, in fact, appear to move for a specified duration.
After all, the moon doesn't really have a specified lifespan; theoretically it could go on forever.
It doesn't take a God to know that unborn children live inside a mother's womb, and that development generally takes 9 months after sex. After all, once a woman becomes pregnant, her period stops.
That the universe (rather, the Heavens and the Earth) had an originating point is a common mythological motif, found in legends that long predate Islam.
The Yusuf Ali translation reads:
48. And We have spread out
The (spacious) earth:
How excellently
We do spread out!
Hardly a description of the modern scientific understanding of the expanding universe.
If this were supposed to be a scientific miracle, there should be absolutely no ambiguity in translation to future languages, leading to such a misunderstanding.
Besides, when modern scientists say that the "universe is expanding", the Earth is included in that expansion. Like I said above, I'm pretty sure there's supposed to be a distinction between "Heaven" and "Earth" in the Qur'an.
And the fact that the Earth is round was proved by Aristotle around 600 BCE, almost a thousand years before Mohammad; around 300 BCE, Eratosthenes accurately calculated the diameter of the Earth without ever leaving Alexandria using basic mathematics.
It was common knowledge. It also would have been obvious to anyone who did any amount of travel.
The verse is referring to the FINAL Earthquake, when "the Earth discharges its burdens". That tells me that the second verse isn't referring at all to the way Earthquakes happen, but just one of the consequences of the Final Earthquake.
Uh... no, that verse in the Qur'an is basically saying that the Earth doesn't move at all, because of the Mountains.
Furthermore, currently existing mountains haven't always been there. Mt. Everest, for example, didn't exist, along with all the Himalayas, until the Indian subcontinent started pushing against Asia.
So it's actually false.
That verse can easily be referring to canyons, which is far more likely.
That's not how Einstein's relativity works at all.
When taking the rest of the passage in context, we find nothing whatsoever to do with black holes, but talking about a time when all the stars will die, which will only happen on Judgment Day.
Besides, not all stars that die become black holes. Our Sun won't.
Pretty sure it's easy for anyone to observe that rain and wind often come together, and that rain comes from the sky. Nothing here about rainwater being the same as ocean water.
Nothing in this verse is clearly referring to the Mediterranean Sea and Atlantic Ocean. It's far more likely referring to a common mythological image from that time: the Waters Above (the Sky) and Waters Below (the Sea).
This is clearly a metaphor for people who don't accept Islam, not intended to be any kind of description of the ocean. Besides, "covered by waves" is clearly talking about surface waves, not sub-surface waves.
Humans aren't made of clay at all. Having some similar characteristics isn't enough to say that we are made of the stuff.
Proportion refers to size, and so, especially taking the previous verse in context, this is saying that Allah has total control over even the least significant part of the human body.
Nothing to do with fingerprints.
People have known about the medicinal qualities of honey for thousands of years; there's an entire alcoholic drink that's just fermented honey (Meade).
Actually, pork isn't inherently more dangerous than other forms of meat.
The problem with modern pork (and all meats) is that they're factory farmed, making them incredibly poisonous.
In fact, modern beef is FAR more dangerous than modern pork.
Humans having command over animal behavior is another common mythological motif. This is not in any way a description of the way ants actually communicate.
Sabour
Well-Known Member
Well I won't address some things of what you have said to keep my reply not too long.
The word used in Arabic, which being referred to heavens is سماء. سماء also means sky.
See this translation 51:7 Yusuf Ali
By the Sky with (its) numerous Paths,
The point is that iron didn't came from earth.
Quraan is not a book that discuss science, but it has some scientific signs. Majority of these points can't be discussed by a person living in the seventh century.
So it was a fluke ?
Not really, Arabic is is not like any other language. There will always be a translation problem because English can't express Arabic.
Nope it is not.
21:31 And We placed within the earth firmly set mountains, lest it should shift with them, and We made therein [mountain] passes [as] roads that they might be guided.
78:7 Mountains as stakes
Quraan is not a book that discusses science, but it has signs. Basically, you refer to it as another fluke.
It is a description of event, among which is the mentioned. "So when the stars are obliterated" means that they will lose their light.
So. another fluke.
When ones gives a metaphore, he gives something related to the real world. Like we say you are afraid like a chicken, we don't say you are afraid like a lion. This would make it not making sense.
Another fluke.
Well we can refer to this part as being ambiguous if you don't think that having the same characteristics is enough. Another fluke
Is there another meaning for fingertips?
Getting it off their chest: Study reveals how ants talk to each other | Mail Online
The word used in Arabic, which being referred to heavens is سماء. سماء also means sky.
See this translation 51:7 Yusuf Ali
By the Sky with (its) numerous Paths,
The point is that iron didn't came from earth.
Quraan is not a book that discuss science, but it has some scientific signs. Majority of these points can't be discussed by a person living in the seventh century.
So it was a fluke ?
Not really, Arabic is is not like any other language. There will always be a translation problem because English can't express Arabic.
That is right. But, this is the way earthquakes happen, why would the final be any different? Should it happen in another way?
Nope it is not.
21:31 And We placed within the earth firmly set mountains, lest it should shift with them, and We made therein [mountain] passes [as] roads that they might be guided.
78:7 Mountains as stakes
Quraan is not a book that discusses science, but it has signs. Basically, you refer to it as another fluke.
It is a description of event, among which is the mentioned. "So when the stars are obliterated" means that they will lose their light.
So. another fluke.
When ones gives a metaphore, he gives something related to the real world. Like we say you are afraid like a chicken, we don't say you are afraid like a lion. This would make it not making sense.
Another fluke.
Well we can refer to this part as being ambiguous if you don't think that having the same characteristics is enough. Another fluke
Is there another meaning for fingertips?
Getting it off their chest: Study reveals how ants talk to each other | Mail Online
Doesn't really negate my point.
Technically, neither did anything else. All Things are ultimately Stardust.
But iron can still form on Earth.
...and that also doesn't address my point at all.
Likely Mohammad was simply drawing upon that commonly used motif.
IOW, basically, yes. No scientific miracle here.
Why'd Allah allow that to happen? Why not reveal in a language that's actually more easily translated to other languages? Heck, knowing that English would become so commonplace during the time when the world can rapidly communicate over long distances, why not reveal it in, say, Latin, which translates easily to English and hundreds of other languages, and still widely spoken at the time?
Point is, that verse has nothing to do with how Earthquakes happen.That is right. But, this is the way earthquakes happen, why would the final be any different? Should it happen in another way?
Yes, "lest it should shift with them"; in other words, "so it[Earth] doesn't shift with them[Mountains]." In English, that sentence is literally saying that the mountains are there so the Earth won't move.
Because it is. I've still not seen any of these "signs", and all the ones people point at are, in fact, not.
Which later verses say will ONLY happen on Judgment Day. But stars die all the time. So, it's wrong.
Yuppers. No scientific miracle here.
Oftentimes, metaphorical images also use abstract images of things that don't exist in the real world.
It's an artistic image, not a description of anything.
There's no reason it should be enough. After all, if it were enough, it wouldn't be special because technically, everything would be made of clay.
Not that I'm aware of.
Cool. Still nothing about ant communication in that verse.
Personally, I don't even see the need for "scientific miracles". I'm able to confidently believe in the Gods, the Otherworld, Elves, and others without any such thing.
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Draupadi
Active Member
You might like to explain in detail what connection has God with the explosion of the universe? And what are the harms of eating pork? Please clarify. Pork meat contains excessive fat? So does domestic cows. The bacteria lodged in their bodies? So does chickens. The thing is you have to cook them well. Details will help you to achieve your target better
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FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
You might like to explain in detail what connection has God with the explosion of the universe? And what are the harms of eating pork? Please clarify. Pork meat contains excessive fat? So does domestic cows. The bacteria lodged in their bodies? So does chickens. The thing is you have to cook them well. Details will help you to achieve your target better
It seems to me from your questions that you don't believe in Islam but why your title is a Muslim.
It is like an atheist defending Islam and prophet Muhammad,how silly you make out of yourself.
Why not choosing your religion title as "none" and then investigate which religion you are interested in.
Draupadi
Active Member
For my first point I have just asked him to give details, because many won't bother to look up other sources for the details of just one point. Secondly, I have said before I have no shame in accepting logic, be it Islamic or anti-Islamic. Maybe you didn't get me. I do cherry pick my religion because Islam and all religion I know of have their flaws. But I believe there is a God and He/She/It can be approached via any belief. Sorry I may seem hypocritical to you but this is me. Accepting the mistakes of Quran as the truth is more illogical than partially believing in a faith. It is more important for me. And please note I haven't a single word to say against OP's other points because I have accepted them as they seemed logical to me. Please, to your faith and to me mine.
Triumphant_Loser
Libertarian Egalitarian
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
There is finally an Islamic voice of reason in this thread!
Yes indeed, first muslim thinking and asking questions similar to an atheist, such as why not eating pork, and then the title is muslim.
