40% of Americans belive the world was created 6000-years ago

[AxisMundi]

I must totally disagree. There is plenty of water on earth to cover a smoother surfaced planet. And it is very likely this planet had much less rugged turaine then today. Our planet presently exhibits the damage caused by both the FALL and the FLOOD. The FLOOD likely was about 1000 years after the FALL. The story of Naoh is the most scientific of all the related stories concerning the GREAT DELUGE. You need to get over the idea that this planet is billions of years old and that life is a "natural" occurence...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)

Flood Stories from Around the World

Floods - Myth Encyclopedia - Greek, god, story, legend, names, ancient, snake, world, Chinese, Roman, creation, Native American, king, people, children, evil, fire, monster

Was There Really a Noah’s Ark & Flood? - Answers in Genesis

Unfortunatly for your myth, the world has never been flat enough to allow for a WWF. There have always been sea beds, lake beds, and elevations too high to permit such a thing.

As to your links, have anything credible to offer as proof?

If you will note, your wiki entry establishes first and foremost that it is a myth unsupported by any evidence. "A deluge myth or flood myth is a mythical story of a great flood sent by a deity or deities to destroy civilization as an act of divine retribution...."

Your talkorigins link merely enumerates some of the stories, fables, and myths from around the world, and offers no proof of a WWF nor makes any attempt to.

Mythencycolopedia, again, refers to the WWF as a myth, and even gives a reasonable background of where flood MYTHS may have originated.

Anwseringenesis is a known YECer site and holds absolutely zero credibility whatsoever. They offer nothing approaching reality or science, and their "proof" lies totally and absolutely in the realm of fantasy. A perfect example of why being called an Apologetic should be considered an insult.

If you are trying to prove a WWF, you'll have to do better.

I'll address Noah's myth next.

 

[LittleNipper]

"40% of Americans belive the world was created 6000-years ago "

It just goes to show that "bandwagon" argments are so much bunk.

A perfect discription of both evolution of man and uniformitarianism among scoffers.

 

[Jose Fly]

You ever notice anything about the Genesis flood story and the Tower of Babel story?

In Genesis 10, after the flood the story tells us what happened to Noah's sons and their descendants. For example, with the Japhethites Genesis 10:5 says: "From these the maritime peoples spread out into their territories by their clans within their nations, each with its own language". And it says the same basic thing about all the other descendants of Noah's sons.

But, when we get to Genesis 11 and the story of the Tower of Babel, the very first verse says: "Now the whole world had one language and a common speech".

Er....um....what? So Genesis 10 is "They all went their separate ways and spoke different languages", but Genesis 11 starts off with "Everyone in the whole world spoke the same language"!

Gee, do you think maybe we're looking at a cobbled together collection of stories from different people?

 

[AxisMundi]

....Was There Really a Noah’s Ark & Flood? - Answers in Genesis

Apologetics is an insult for the simple reason that so much must be created (ie fabricated, invented) to bring the Apologetics views into alignment with known science and their bible.

A few examples from your site...

"The bible does not tell us that Noah and his sons built the Ark by themselves". The bible states that everyone else scoffed at Noah. He had no help. Your link then goes on to attempt a rather non sequitur in comparing ship building with house erecting. Yes, a full crew of experienced construction workers can erect a home in a few weeks. using power tool and pre-made materials, such as windows and lumber. Each portion of said vessel would've been hand hewn.

Perhaps that's why Noah "lived for 900 years", since it would've taken that long with primitive hand tools and four people.

Next. Pangaea. A single continent that is theorized to have began breaking up into the continents we know today some 200 million years ago, far outside of your biblical time line of 6,000 years ago. Since first theorized in 1912, Apologetics have latch desperately onto this single continent idea in a desperate attempt to salvage their myths. Unfortunately for them, the theory doesn't match the myth in the least. Pangaea began breaking up when Dinosaurs ruled the world, before the advent of mammals and long before Man's ancestors walked upright. Dinosaurs are not mentioned in your bible. The "behemoth" is an elephant, not a Dino.

How did they all fit? Even using the number on the site, 16,000 (which is quite laughable in itself), you're talking about holding those animals, their feed, including raw meat, their wastes, and enough seeds to reforest the planet for many decades. Not only food and fresh water for the 370 days spent aboard, but the many years before the plant species were reintroduced and thrived enough to support the prey species, and the prey species to repopulate enough to feed the predatory species. And let us not forget the fresh water as well.

Like other YECer Apologists, this site does not take into account interior support structures and decks in estimating the hold capacity of a ship too large to be built of wood, as wood is structurally incapable. Also, two, or even seven, of each animal is not enough to approach the Minimal Viability Population number of 50 mating couples. Any species taken on the ark that somehow managed to survive not only confinement then released into the utter desolation, the poisonous water, the disease ridden drowned carcasses of every other once living thing, those species would be extinct within two generations.

As this post is getting long, and the entirety of this site is simply baffling in it's intellectual dishonest and lack of simple logic, not to mention it's complete disregard of simple sciences, I will end the review here.

 

[Agnostic75]

Does anyone except for inerranists believe that the earth is young? I don't think so.

 

[Agnostic75]

Global flood? Nope.

 

[Gunfingers]

So a while back i brought up a population growth model which supported msizer's postulation that population growth rates post-flood did not jive with the world's population as we know it. I was not taken seriously due to the home-brewed nature of the algorithm i used.

Well in calculus i learned about a more advanced population growth model, that i would like to apply here. The algorithm goes

P(t) = P(0) * e^kt

Where P(0) is the population at the time you begin measuring growth, t equals the time from the year you begin measuring growth, and k is the growth constant. If you don't know a lot about math, e is euler's constant, and important number in calculus, and the carat ("^") indicates an exponent. You would read this as "P of zero times e to the kt".

k is normally calculated by dividing the rate of change at P(0) (called P'(0)) by P(0). We know that Noah and his three sons, along with their wives, were the only survivors. This means that P(0) equals 8.
Noah's sons had 11 children between them, but it is unlikely that they were all born the first year, so a growth constant of 11/8 is improbable. The highest i would estimate the growth constant is 3/8, that is that each of Noah's sons had a child the first year. However, plug that in with t=5000 (a common estimate of the time since the flood) and we get a larger number than my calculator is able to hold. A great deal of experimentation puts k at .0329/8 to get 6.8 billion at t=5000.
This poses a problem, however. Remember that the numerator in k is the population change in the first year. At almost a thirtieth of a person it means that a whole generation would have to pass before a child could be born.

But hey, no problem, the model simply doesn't work at small populations, right?
Well at t=441, around the time the giza pyramids were built, the model shows 50 people in the world. It doesn't fit reality at all. Plug in any time. (pick a date and add 3000 to it to get t for approximately that date).

 

[Agnostic75]

If a global flood occured, hydrodynamic sorting, also known as hydrologic sorting, would show it, but it doesn't.

One can speculate that science is wrong, but one can also speculate that the Bible is not inerrant.

 

[AxisMundi]

The Atlantic & Pacific Oceans, the Grand Canyon ---- see
Scientific Geological Evidence for Deluge Noah’s Flood Ark not Mythology Legends Mount Ararat Flood Basalts Catastrophism Igneous Extrusions Mountain Building Runaway Plate Tectonics Young Earth Creationism John Baumgardner Magmatic Plutons Sub

Baumgardner has become a laughingstock and an embarassment to the legitimate scientists of the world, as Baumgardner's "hydroplaning continents" theory not only doesn't stand up to peer review, it is devoid of any actual knowledge concerning plate tectonics.

This "theory" must also completely ignores simple physics as well, such as what occurs when water is superheated. There is no water below the crust, it is too hot. "Compressed magma" doesn't contain any water at all, let alone "80%". And what about the huge, and very deep Pacific Ocean basin? If, for the sake of argument, we allow Mr. Baumgardner his fantasy, this could explain the Atlantic Basin, but it does not explain the Pacific.

 

[LittleNipper]

Baumgardner has become a laughingstock and an embarassment to the legitimate scientists of the world, as Baumgardner's "hydroplaning continents" theory not only doesn't stand up to peer review, it is devoid of any actual knowledge concerning plate tectonics.

This "theory" must also completely ignores simple physics as well, such as what occurs when water is superheated. There is no water below the crust, it is too hot. "Compressed magma" doesn't contain any water at all, let alone "80%". And what about the huge, and very deep Pacific Ocean basin? If, for the sake of argument, we allow Mr. Baumgardner his fantasy, this could explain the Atlantic Basin, but it does not explain the Pacific.

How would anyone know? The world as we know it is presently broken. All supposed "anti Creation" scientific "evidence" is formulated using present day standards.

 

[johnhanks]

So a while back i brought up a population growth model which supported msizer's postulation that population growth rates post-flood did not jive with the world's population as we know it. I was not taken seriously due to the home-brewed nature of the algorithm i used.

Well in calculus i learned about a more advanced population growth model, that i would like to apply here. The algorithm goes

P(t) = P(0) * e^kt

Where P(0) is the population at the time you begin measuring growth, t equals the time from the year you begin measuring growth, and k is the growth constant. If you don't know a lot about math, e is euler's constant, and important number in calculus, and the carat ("^") indicates an exponent. You would read this as "P of zero times e to the kt".

k is normally calculated by dividing the rate of change at P(0) (called P'(0)) by P(0). We know that Noah and his three sons, along with their wives, were the only survivors. This means that P(0) equals 8.
Noah's sons had 11 children between them, but it is unlikely that they were all born the first year, so a growth constant of 11/8 is improbable. The highest i would estimate the growth constant is 3/8, that is that each of Noah's sons had a child the first year. However, plug that in with t=5000 (a common estimate of the time since the flood) and we get a larger number than my calculator is able to hold. A great deal of experimentation puts k at .0329/8 to get 6.8 billion at t=5000.
This poses a problem, however. Remember that the numerator in k is the population change in the first year. At almost a thirtieth of a person it means that a whole generation would have to pass before a child could be born.

But hey, no problem, the model simply doesn't work at small populations, right?
Well at t=441, around the time the giza pyramids were built, the model shows 50 people in the world. It doesn't fit reality at all. Plug in any time. (pick a date and add 3000 to it to get t for approximately that date).

I posted the results of some calculations using then same equation a few weeks back, but without attracting much notice. I found that to get from 8 people at 2400 BCE to the estimated world population at AD 1, the value of r (your k) would have to be roughly the same as we observe in aphids. This thread was a slightly cruder attempt at essentially the same exercise.

Whichever way you slice it, neither mathematics nor biology offer any comfort to the veracity of the flood myth.

 

[AxisMundi]

How would anyone know? The world as we know it is presently broken. All supposed "anti Creation" scientific "evidence" is formulated using present day standards.

Um, yes, by using present day standards...

Present day scientific standards.

There is no evidence to support Baumgardner's hypothesis nor is there even any logic to Baumgardner's hypothesis. His "works" are mere Apologetics at their finest, pure fantasy created to fill the huge cracks in biblical myths that simply bypass the scientific method and do not stand up to simple peer review.

No legitimate scientists, devout Christian or otherwise, will back up Baumgardner's hydroplaning continent theory in peer review. It is simply too silly.

 

[AxisMundi]

I posted the results of some calculations using then same equation a few weeks back, but without attracting much notice. I found that to get from 8 people at 2400 BCE to the estimated world population at AD 1, the value of r (your k) would have to be roughly the same as we observe in aphids. This thread was a slightly cruder attempt at essentially the same exercise.

Whichever way you slice it, neither mathematics nor biology offer any comfort to the veracity of the flood myth.

Minimal Population Viability sort of cancels out the need for any math.

Which is good, for math is Ebil.

 

[Gunfingers]

Which is good, for math is Ebil.

Computer Science Major RAGE!

 

[LittleNipper]

Minimal Population Viability sort of cancels out the need for any math.

Which is good, for math is Ebil.

No TV, no radio, no movies, no amusement parks, no malls ----- how many children did Job have? How many did Jacob have?

 

[Gunfingers]

No TV, no radio, no movies, no amusement parks, no malls ----- how many children did Job have? How many did Jacob have?

It's hard to say, the bible only mentions the boys...

 

[Jose Fly]

How would anyone know? The world as we know it is presently broken. All supposed "anti Creation" scientific "evidence" is formulated using present day standards.

It helps too if you just ignore everything that runs counter to, or questions your beliefs. A good example would be your behavior in this thread.

 

[Agnostic75]

How would anyone know? The world as we know it is presently broken. All supposed "anti Creation" scientific "evidence" is formulated using present day standards.

But all of science is not "anti Creation." Many Christians, including many Christian experts, believe that the earth is old, that the flood was localized, and that theistic evolution is true.

Do you have any evidence that the law of gravity is different than it used to be? Unless the law of gravity is different than it used to be, there is no way that a global flood could have occured. According to the law of gravity, when fossils and sediments are mixed with water, they have to settle in certain ways. The ways that fossils and sediments are sorted indicate that a global flood did not occur. Hydrodynamic sorting, also called hydrologic sorting, is a scientific field that is largely based upon the law of gravity.

Are you proposing that God inspired and preserved the originals free of errors except for obvious scribal and copyist errors?

 

[AxisMundi]

No TV, no radio, no movies, no amusement parks, no malls -----

And this has to do with my comment how?

how many children did Job have? How many did Jacob have?

Doesn't matter if they had a million. Minimal Viability Population isn't a hypothetical, it is a proven concept as seen in not only species that have gone extinct within the past centuries, but small groups of human beings as well.

Without a large enough gene pool, sterility will quickly set in due to inbreeding, and said species, human or otherwise, becomes extinct within a matter of generations.

 

[LittleNipper]

It's hard to say, the bible only mentions the boys...

Actually, Job is said to have had 3 daughters and seven sons... And yes, I believe GOD can do anything HE wishes for obvious reasons.