"48% of White Evangelicals Would Support Kavanaugh Even If He Assaulted Dr. Ford"

[ecco]

True. Had Gore won New Hampshire, he would have won the election. He lost by about 5000 votes. Nader picked up about about 6000 votes in that state.

Source: Google "nader votes vs gore bush"

In the 2000 presidential election in Florida, George W. Bush defeated Al Gore by 537votes. Nader received 97,421 votes in Florida (and Pat Buchanan and Harry Browne received 17,484 and 16,415 respectively)​

 

[Sunstone]

In fairness, I don't believe it's that dichotomous. There are people who will find rape abhorrent and never condone it, but don't find this incident from almost 40 years ago to be a deal breaker.

I personally am open to the argument that "dumb stuff I did as a kid shouldn't be held against me as an adult if I can demonstrate I have matured and moved on". Now, whether Kavanaugh has "matured and moved on" is highly debatable, but an incident from that long ago, that occurred between two immature and hormonal teenagers, taking into account the cultural context of the time, isn't, in and of itself, disqualifying.

In my opinion. Maybe I'm biased because of the dumb stuff I did in my youth and got away with. What's the worst thing you ever did as a teenager? Would it be fair to hold it against you at your next job interview?

I guess we have a different view of the seriousness of rape. I hold rape to be just barely below murder, based on having had numerous friends who were raped and who have suffered for it ever since being raped. People who have been raped get better, but they seldom "get over it".

I would not forgive a 16 year old raping someone any quicker than I'd forgive a 16 year old murdering someone. The effect on the victims is the same regardless of the age of the perpetrator If you rape a 16 year when you're 16, you're going to forget it soon enough -- but she's likely to still be -- to one extent or another -- dealing with fallout from it at age 60.

 

[Sunstone]

Source: Google "nader votes vs gore bush"

In the 2000 presidential election in Florida, George W. Bush defeated Al Gore by 537votes. Nader received 97,421 votes in Florida (and Pat Buchanan and Harry Browne received 17,484 and 16,415 respectively)​

Gore had multiple paths to victory, both of them blocked by Nader.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I guess we have a different view of the seriousness of rape. I hold rape to be just barely below murder, based on having had numerous friends who were raped and who have suffered for it ever since being raped. People who have been raped get better, but they seldom "get over it".

I would not forgive a 16 year old raping someone any quicker than I'd forgive a 16 year old murdering someone. The effect on the victims is the same regardless of the age of the perpetrator If you rape a 16 year when you're 16, you're going to forget it soon enough -- but she's likely to still be -- to one extent or another -- dealing with fallout from it at age 60.

But this is the crux of the issue we're discussing, i.e. culpability. The effect on the victims can be terrible, and that's why rape is considered so serious. I am not for an instant suggesting otherwise.

However, guilt and responsibility aren't determined by the effect on the victim. And yes, I'll be first to agree that's a ****ty deal for the victim in such cases, but what does it achieve punishing someone for something that they weren't responsible, or less responsible, for? Consider; manslaughter, second degree murder and first degree murder. All three have equal effects on the victims and their loved ones, however they are all treated very differently. Someone fiddling with the radio and running a red light and killing someone could be charged with vehicular homicide, but the victim is just as dead as the victim of a premeditated, cold blooded murder. Should they both recieve the same punishment?

Further, I don't know about you, but I believe in the idea of reform, and judging people based on their collected good and bad qualities, not cherry picking a single event from 40 years ago, at least, not if it isn't part of an ongoing pattern of behaviour.

I ask again, what's the worst thing you ever did as a kid, and would it be fair if it were brought up at your next job interview?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You and others like you got Trump elected. Apparently you folks never heard the name "Ralph Nader".

You did not pay attention to my post. In my state of was not even close. Hillary won by a landslide. If it was going to be close at all I would have voted for her. I could not stand either of the top two, but if needed I was ready to vote for her. Since she was going to win easily in my state I had the luxury of wasting my vote as a protest. If I had lived in Pennsylvania or a similar state I would have voted for her.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Gore had multiple paths to victory, both of them blocked by Nader.

Turnabout is fair play. Clinton (Bill) did not get close to a majority in either of his elections. The first one especially was handed to him by Perot.

 

[Sunstone]

But this is the crux of the issue we're discussing, i.e. culpability. The effect on the victims can be terrible, and that's why rape is considered so serious. I am not for an instant suggesting otherwise.

However, guilt and responsibility aren't determined by the effect on the victim. And yes, I'll be first to agree that's a ****ty deal for the victim in such cases, but what does it achieve punishing someone for something that they weren't responsible, or less responsible, for? Consider; manslaughter, second degree murder and first degree murder. All three have equal effects on the victims and their loved ones, however they are all treated very differently. Someone fiddling with the radio and running a red light and killing someone could be charged with vehicular homicide, but the victim is just as dead as the victim of a premeditated, cold blooded murder. Should they both recieve the same punishment?

Further, I don't know about you, but I believe in the idea of reform, and judging people based on their collected good and bad qualities, not cherry picking a single event from 40 years ago, at least, not if it isn't part of an ongoing pattern of behaviour.

I ask again, what's the worst thing you ever did as a kid, and would it be fair if it were brought up at your next job interview?

I'm in favor of trying most juvenile rape and murder cases as adults. And yes, if I had raped and/or murdered as a juvenile, it would be fair for that to be on my job application 40 years later. After all, my "sentence" should not be lighter than the crime itself and by raping someone, I sentence them to a lifetime of troubles.

 

[Flame]

You and others like you got Trump elected. Apparently you folks never heard the name "Ralph Nader".

Remember everyone. An independent vote is a vote for the enemy.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Remember everyone. An independent vote is a vote for the enemy.

Nope, that is bad math. At worst it is half a vote to both lead candidates.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I'm in favor of trying most juvenile rape and murder cases as adults. And yes, if I had raped and/or murdered as a juvenile, it would be fair for that to be on my job application 40 years later. After all, my "sentence" should not be lighter than the crime itself and by raping someone, I sentence them to a lifetime of troubles.

I'm sorry, I don't agree. Are you at all familiar with the science of neurological development, particularly of impulse control? It's a simple fact that young people do not have the same control of, or appreciation of the consequences of, their actions as adults. I can't agree with the idea of punishing someone to the same degree as someone else if one was less responsible for their crime than the other.

 

[Sunstone]

I'm sorry, I don't agree. Are you at all familiar with the science of neurological development, particularly of impulse control? It's a simple fact that young people do not have the same control of, or appreciation of the consequences of, their actions as adults. I can't agree with the idea of punishing someone to the same degree as someone else if one was less responsible for their crime than the other.

You're probably right. But I have had so many friends who've been raped or molested -- and I have seen up close and personal what it has done to them. I'd still personally castrate the swine, if I could -- even if they were minors at the time. But you're probably right.

Someone once asked an advocate for abolishing the death penalty what he would do if his daughter was raped and murdered. "I'd want to kill the *******", he replied, "But I would expect my friends to prevent me from doing that." I can't change the fact I'd destroy any rapist I got my hands on, but -- yes, objectively speaking, an underage rapist isn't fully in control of themselves, that is a mitigating factor.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

The UK Supreme Court is appointed by an independent Appointments Commission, half of whose members are judges and who are required to select persons of good character and demonstrated merit. The idea of politicians appointing judges on the basis of their politics horrifies me and I suspect it would horrify the men who created the US court in the first place.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

You're probably right. But I have had so many friends who've been raped or molested -- and I have seen up close and personal what it has done to them. I'd still personally castrate the swine, if I could -- even if they were minors at the time. But you're probably right.

Someone once asked an advocate for abolishing the death penalty what he would do if his daughter was raped and murdered. "I'd want to kill the *******", he replied, "But I would expect my friends to prevent me from doing that." I can't change the fact I'd destroy any rapist I got my hands on, but -- yes, objectively speaking, an underage rapist isn't fully in control of themselves that is a mitigating factor.

The gods prevent you from ever experiencing someone closer to you than anyone else on earth being raped and murdered.

I understand the emotional sensitivity of the issue, and if it were MY daughter, I'm sure I'd want to kill and maim as many years later as it took... however... you and I both know about logical fallacies, even the really powerfully convincing ones like appeal to emotion. Part of practicing rational thought is to beware of our own vulnerabilities to them.

Even when it's hard. And effects us personally.

 

[Audie]

Regardless of Kennedy's antics (who quested Clarence Thomas on similar despite his own more serious issues) we are talking about unproven claims while a minor
and if the behavior was seen to continue as an adult that seems to the the decisive issue

JUST saying lets not stoop to playing whatabout.

Double standards R human. It is nobody's monopoly.
And never a excuse for ill behaviour.

 

[Sunstone]

I understand the emotional sensitivity of the issue, and if it were MY daughter, I'm sure I'd want to kill and maim as many years later as it took... however... you and I both know about logical fallacies, even the really powerfully convincing ones like appeal to emotion. Part of practicing rational thought is to beware of our own vulnerabilities to them.

Even when it's hard. And effects us personally.

You are correct. Moreover, those least in touch with their own feelings are the most susceptible to acting on them in one way or another, in my experience. I would trust someone who knows he or she wants to murder someone but that it would be wrong, sooner than I would trust someone who piously denies they want to want to murder someone when they actually do -- even if they admit it would be wrong.

 

[Audie]

Turnabout is fair play. Clinton (Bill) did not get close to a majority in either of his elections. The first one especially was handed to him by Perot.

"Turnabout is fair play"

Yet another truism that is not true.

 

[Subduction Zone]

"Turnabout is fair play"

Yet another truism that is not true.

The point is that complaining about Nader costing Gore the election is rather hypocritical since he never would have been Vice President and therefore would never have been in the running for President if not for a third party candidate.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

"Turnabout is fair play"

Yet another truism that is not true.

Really? When is turnabout ever not fair?

 

[Revoltingest]

Really? When is turnabout ever not fair?

When one who didn't commit the original
sin endures it being imposed upon one, ie,
to be hoisted by someone else's petard.

Of course, this is an individualist perspective.
Those who favor group politics would disagree.

 

[Audie]

Really? When is turnabout ever not fair?

Criminal or unethical situations?

Howabout you raped my daughter, I will rape yours.