6000 years

[outhouse]

The concept of evolution was also created

False

it was discovered

 

[fallingblood]

prove it then

until then it stays where it was born


just be thankful its still outlawed from public schools

Again, it isn't outlawed from public school. It can and is taught in literature classes. It simply is not allowed in science classes.

More so, you are either being purposely obtuse, or are just not reading what I said. I don't have to prove something that is based on faith. However, again, I think if you understand what mythology is, you wouldn't say creation is mythology.

False

it was discovered

Concepts are created. Evolution wasn't created, but the concept was created. Now, if you want to say that it was discovered, then I can say that God was discovered. Same idea either way.

And the creation account simply states there was nothing before hand

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth

and that is all they knew from their stance of ignorance on the universe, the earth and space.

First, your wiki source doesn't address what I stated in regards to the dating. Also, it only states that is what people calculated, which really means nothing, and doesn't actually address what the question anyway.

Second, you are cutting the verse in half, or in other words, taking it out of context. If we look at other creation accounts from that time, none of them are saying that creation is from nothing. If you take the entire context, it suggests that there was something before creation. This is how most scholars interpret the verses. It is also what Karen Armstrong states in her book In the Beginning.

 

[oldbadger]

I clearly stated converted

all energy we will ever know was created in the big bang

which cannot be attributed to a deity by scientific standards

This is not science.This is pure fable. No part of this underlined sentence makes any scientific sense at all. And you are calling genesis story rubbish?

 

[McBell]

here ya go, youll have to love my translation for the definition of implicitly [under the umbrella of read literally]

Gotta love that you have to use the loosest possible definition?
Gotta love that even when we use the loosest possible definition it still fails?

And after this you expect to be taken seriously?

Young Earth creationism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Septuagint has traditionally been calculated to date the creation around 5500 BC, while the Samaritan Torah around 4300 BC, and the Masoretic around 4000 BC.[17] Many of the earliest Christians who followed the Septuagint calculated creation around 5500 BC, and Christians up to the Middle-Ages continued to use this rough estimate: Clement of Alexandria (5592 BC), Julius Africanus (5501 BC), Eusebius (5228 BC), Jerome (5199 BC) Hippolytus of Rome (5500 BC), Theophilus of Antioch (5529 BC), Sulpicius Severus (5469 BC), Isidore of Seville (5336 BC), Panodorus of Alexandria (5493 BC), Maximus the Confessor (5493 BC), George Syncellus (5492 BC) and Gregory of Tours (5500 BC).[18][19][20] The Byzantine calendar has traditionally dated the creation of the world to 1 September, 5509 BC, María de Ágreda and her followers to 5199 BC while the early Ethiopian Church (as revealed in the Book of Aksum) to 5493 BC.[21][22] Bede was one of the first to break away from the standard Septuagint date for the creation and in his work De Temporibus ("On Time") (completed in 703 AD) dated the creation to 18 March 3952 BC but was accused of heresy at the table of Bishop Wilfrid, because his chronology was contrary to accepted calculations of around 5500 BC.[23] After the Masoretic text however was published, dating creation around 4000 BC became common, and was received with wide support.[24] Proposed calculations of the date of creation, using the Masoretic from the 10th century – 18th century include: Marianus Scotus (4192 BC), Maimonides (4058 BC), Henri Spondanus (4051 BC), Benedict Pereira (4021 BC), Louis Cappel (4005 BC), James Ussher (4004 BC), Augustin Calmet (4002 BC), Isaac Newton (4000 BC), Johannes Kepler (27 April, 3977 BC) [based on his book Mysterium], Petavius (3984 BC), Theodore Bibliander (3980 BC), Christen Sørensen Longomontanus (3966 BC), Melanchthon (3964 BC), Martin Luther (3961 BC), John Lightfoot (3960 BC), Cornelius Cornelii a Lapide (3951 BC) Joseph Justus Scaliger (3949 BC), Christoph Helvig (3947 BC), Gerardus Mercator (3928 BC), Matthieu Brouard (3927 BC), Benito Arias Montano (3849 BC), Andreas Helwig (3836 BC), David Gans (3761 BC) and Gershom ben Judah (3754 BC).

This is nothing more than a list of people who support the 6000 years thought.
Where is it in the bible that Implicitly states...

What I find interesting is that you have not offered up even one verse to support the claim.
yet you seem to think that the Bible implicitly states...

And the creation account simply states there was nothing before hand

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth

and that is all they knew from their stance of ignorance on the universe, the earth and space.

wow.
All that and you STILL have not supported the claim that the bible implicitly states...

There was nothing in the beginning?
One wonders what you think god is...

 

[savagewind]

You mean the scientific consensus based on raw data that's not publicly available does a good job disproving that? Or do you mean the fossils themselves?

LOL. Good morning! A thinking question. Sometimes thinking is hard work. I will try.

I think both. Many times fossils are observed by non-scientific ordinary people. Then their find gets recorded in the news. We learn in school about geography and erosion (but only if you show up for class that day). Common people can put together sightings and news reports of sightings of ancient remains and make their own reasonable conclusion about when that fossil was a live being. My conclusion (and I have to say I have not read any scientific consensus) is living things lived way longer ago than 6000 years. JC sometimes I feel 6000 years young.

 

[AdamsDream]

Excuse me hacking lumps out of your post? I underlined a few 'theys' etc, here and there. Now, either you know these people or you have just had bad dreams about them?

What I need you to do is indentify who these 'theys' are. Are 'they' a religion or group? How many of 'them' are there? Look...... you wrote this stuff, so who are these groups or religions?

I bet you don't have the first clue who 'they' might be. Now let's be clear here. You are saying that 'they' do not accept a 4.54 billion year Earth? Do not accept 3.5 billion year life? Do not accept 300 million year dinosaurs? Come on..... give us a laugh! Tell us who 'they' are!

This is a bit silly.
You quote me yourselve as beginning with 'Believers in literal bible genesis'. So I don't repeat this and use 'they'. Is this a children's game?
I am broad-minded enough not to laugh with what 99,99 % of the scientists would consider a very strange perception of reality so if you have arguments, use those. I will read them, assuming you are serious. But this is childish. It just won't do to play such a silly word-game. A bit surprised, I didn't expect that from you.

 

[oldbadger]

This is a bit silly.
You quote me yourselve as beginning with 'Believers in literal bible genesis'. So I don't repeat this and use 'they'. Is this a children's game?
I am broad-minded enough not to laugh with what 99,99 % of the scientists would consider a very strange perception of reality so if you have arguments, use those. I will read them, assuming you are serious. But this is childish. It just won't do to play such a silly word-game. A bit surprised, I didn't expect that from you.

Didn't think you would be able to name a single religion or group. Remember what I wrote?:-
I bet you don't have the first clue who 'they' might be. Now let's be clear here. You are saying that 'they' do not accept a 4.54 billion year Earth? Do not accept 3.5 billion year life? Do not accept 300 million year dinosaurs? Come on..... give us a laugh! Tell us who 'they' are!
If it was that easy you would have just named them all?
Silly? Nah!
Gotcha!
Gosh........that was easy :beach:

 

[savagewind]

Lady B does not believe it. But then there is a web site one poster offered. It is they, isn't it? Your argument is getting harder and harder to follow.

 

[oldbadger]

Lady B does not believe it. But then there is a web site one poster offered. It is they, isn't it? Your argument is getting harder and harder to follow.

Hi! Lady B? How interesting.... I will read back on her posts.

Harder and harder to follow? Well, some debaters are saying that people who do not believe in a 4.54Billion year Earth (dinosaurs, etc) are 'wrong'. OK?
So, I was challenging one of them to name a single religion that did not believe this.
That member returned without any religions and was, well, wriggling..... a bit.
So....... since neither of us can think of a single religion, he might leave those points out of the debate? There's nobody (apart from one?) to debate those issues?

That leaves us with 6000 years, which is what the debate is about! Fair?
Now, most of us theists are saying (more or less) that the creation of mankind story is the best description that was available to folks who later wrote it down. Most of us (present) believe in evolution!

There are one or two groups that believe 'creation' as reported. Eric von Daniken's supporters and others. So.... all that's needed now is for some of them to debate their beliefs, 'cos the rest of us theists are all in 'violent agreement' with science!

Interestingly, many of the best (big bang) scientists are in contention over why the big bang happened, and how the big bang happened, so it's kind of hard for less brilliant scIentists to wave the 'we know it all' banner just now. I can understand that this is less than satisfying for some, because they do like blood on the debating floor, but alas, they ain't going to get it.

 

[savagewind]

idays post number five on this thread links a web site that publishes a 6000 year old Earth. It is my opinion they can not argue it. How can they? They say it is what the Bible says. I am a Bible student. I do not read it the same way they do. There was a time that I did not dispute 6000 year old homo sapiens. Now I am with the team that says Man became in God's image about that time. That I can believe. The Bible says humans can be occupied with wicked spirits. It was 6000 years ago, I believe, that man became occupied with the holy spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit exists for the working out of The Holy God's purpose. Which is..?

 

[AdamsDream]

Didn't think you would be able to name a single religion or group. Remember what I wrote?:-
I bet you don't have the first clue who 'they' might be. Now let's be clear here. You are saying that 'they' do not accept a 4.54 billion year Earth? Do not accept 3.5 billion year life? Do not accept 300 million year dinosaurs? Come on..... give us a laugh! Tell us who 'they' are!
If it was that easy you would have just named them all?
Silly? Nah!
Gotcha!
Gosh........that was easy :beach:

Didn't think you would pursue this game. 'remember what I wrote?' I remember the reaction of a child who puts his finger in his nose. Especially as I'm quite sure the very reason of the childish reaction is that you know I'm not just someone parrotting generalities.
If ever you recover you can rejoin the discussion as an adult. Would be especially interesting if by then you too could do more than 'name' theories and myths.
Hmm, in another discussion I took you seriously and even gave you my support. Was that allso a 'Gotcha!' moment for you? Well, glad you have your fun here but this kind of thing is not my cup of tea.

 

[oldbadger]

idays post number five on this thread links a web site that publishes a 6000 year old Earth. It is my opinion they can not argue it. How can they? They say it is what the Bible says. I am a Bible student. I do not read it the same way they do. There was a time that I did not dispute 6000 year old homo sapiens. Now I am with the team that says Man became in God's image about that time. That I can believe. The Bible says humans can be occupied with wicked spirits. It was 6000 years ago, I believe, that man became occupied with the holy spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit exists for the working out of The Holy God's purpose. Which is..?

OK.... I couldn't open it! My laptop locked up (twice) and I gave up, 'cos I had to reboot each time. I will just accept your report on the web site. We need a couple of that group here, because they need to debate their corner. Your point about 'becoming in God's image' is interesting, and it could be that that point was the transition from 'Just another animal' to 'a moral or immoral human'.? Something like that? That sounds really interesting, because animals (creatures) cannot be evil. Yes! I like that a lot. I must pay more attention to it.

Thanks for that.

 

[oldbadger]

Didn't think you would pursue this game. 'remember what I wrote?' I remember the reaction of a child who puts his finger in his nose. Especially as I'm quite sure the very reason of the childish reaction is that you know I'm not just someone parrotting generalities.
If ever you recover you can rejoin the discussion as an adult. Would be especially interesting if by then you too could do more than 'name' theories and myths.
Hmm, in another discussion I took you seriously and even gave you my support. Was that allso a 'Gotcha!' moment for you? Well, glad you have your fun here but this kind of thing is not my cup of tea.

At no point did I insult you, but you have.... to me.
You have nothing to debate on the 4.54b, 3.5b and 300m, year issues with me, because I accept them all, as do most others here, and you were 'out of thread' there. It's a 6000 year debate.
I have not named any myths.
If you debate for science, you need to bring science with you.

 

[roger_pearse]

outhouse[/B]]
Young Earth creationism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Septuagint has traditionally been calculated to date the creation around 5500 BC, while the Samaritan Torah around 4300 BC, and the Masoretic around 4000 BC.[17] Many of the earliest Christians who followed the Septuagint calculated creation around 5500 BC, and Christians up to the Middle-Ages continued to use this rough estimate: Clement of Alexandria (5592 BC), Julius Africanus (5501 BC), Eusebius (5228 BC), Jerome (5199 BC) Hippolytus of Rome (5500 BC), Theophilus of Antioch (5529 BC), Sulpicius Severus (5469 BC), Isidore of Seville (5336 BC), Panodorus of Alexandria (5493 BC), Maximus the Confessor (5493 BC), George Syncellus (5492 BC) and Gregory of Tours (5500 BC).[18][19][20] The Byzantine calendar has traditionally dated the creation of the world to 1 September, 5509 BC, María de Ágreda and her followers to 5199 BC while the early Ethiopian Church (as revealed in the Book of Aksum) to 5493 BC.[21][22] Bede was one of the first to break away from the standard Septuagint date for the creation and in his work De Temporibus ("On Time") (completed in 703 AD) dated the creation to 18 March 3952 BC but was accused of heresy at the table of Bishop Wilfrid, because his chronology was contrary to accepted calculations of around 5500 BC.[23] After the Masoretic text however was published, dating creation around 4000 BC became common, and was received with wide support.[24] Proposed calculations of the date of creation, using the Masoretic from the 10th century – 18th century include: Marianus Scotus (4192 BC), Maimonides (4058 BC), Henri Spondanus (4051 BC), Benedict Pereira (4021 BC), Louis Cappel (4005 BC), James Ussher (4004 BC), Augustin Calmet (4002 BC), Isaac Newton (4000 BC), Johannes Kepler (27 April, 3977 BC) [based on his book Mysterium], Petavius (3984 BC), Theodore Bibliander (3980 BC), Christen Sørensen Longomontanus (3966 BC), Melanchthon (3964 BC), Martin Luther (3961 BC), John Lightfoot (3960 BC), Cornelius Cornelii a Lapide (3951 BC) Joseph Justus Scaliger (3949 BC), Christoph Helvig (3947 BC), Gerardus Mercator (3928 BC), Matthieu Brouard (3927 BC), Benito Arias Montano (3849 BC), Andreas Helwig (3836 BC), David Gans (3761 BC) and Gershom ben Judah (3754 BC).

This is nothing more than a list of people who support the 6000 years thought.

There is something smelly about this list. For one thing, I translated the Chronicle of Eusebius, and I know, therefore, that it starts in the 15th year of Abraham. Why? because Eusebius doesn't believe the creation can be calculated accurately. In fact later on he states that all dates before a certain point in Greek history are suspect.

So where does this claim about "5228 BC" come from?

Oh. It's Wikipedia. Enough said. It's almost certainly complete and utter rubbish.

In fact if you look at the notes, and follow footnote 19, it links to

Creationism and the Early Church - Chapter 3

which includes the statement: "Hugh Ross notes that Eusebius makes no reference to a date for creation or to the age of the earth anywhere in his works.(15)".

Now I don't know about the other claims. But when I see that there are no specific sources given, and I know that one of them is complete bunk, then I get pretty suspicious of the rest.

Dating the creation belongs to late antiquity, the 5th century onwards. And amusingly the text describes George Syncellus (9th century) as one of the "earliest Christians".

I'm not sure what the context of all this is -- I only saw this post -- but I think any argument that relies on Wikipedia must be very shaky.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

 

[outhouse]

There is something smelly about this list. For one thing, I translated the Chronicle of Eusebius, and I know, therefore, that it starts in the 15th year of Abraham. Why? because Eusebius doesn't believe the creation can be calculated accurately. In fact later on he states that all dates before a certain point in Greek history are suspect.

So where does this claim about "5228 BC" come from?

Oh. It's Wikipedia. Enough said. It's almost certainly complete and utter rubbish.

In fact if you look at the notes, and follow footnote 19, it links to

Creationism and the Early Church - Chapter 3

which includes the statement: "Hugh Ross notes that Eusebius makes no reference to a date for creation or to the age of the earth anywhere in his works.(15)".

Now I don't know about the other claims. But when I see that there are no specific sources given, and I know that one of them is complete bunk, then I get pretty suspicious of the rest.

Dating the creation belongs to late antiquity, the 5th century onwards. And amusingly the text describes George Syncellus (9th century) as one of the "earliest Christians".

I'm not sure what the context of all this is -- I only saw this post -- but I think any argument that relies on Wikipedia must be very shaky.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

seek and you shall find


Anno Mundi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Chronicon of Eusebius (early 4th century) and Jerome (c. 380, Constantinople) dated Creation to 5199 BC



and you will see Jerome does a little recording of this from Eusebius

 

[roger_pearse]

seek and you shall find

Anno Mundi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Chronicon of Eusebius (early 4th century) and Jerome (c. 380, Constantinople) dated Creation to 5199 BC

and you will see Jerome does a little recording of this from Eusebius

The trouble with Wikipedia is that it is a collection of hearsay, edited by people with little education. See if you can find any specific reference in this to the actual text, and to where precisely Eusebius says this. (Both the Chronicon of Eusebius, and Jerome's expansion of it, are actually online, in English, you know.) Then ask yourself why you can't.

Seriously: try to find an actual reference to the passage in either text.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

 

[outhouse]

Seriously: try to find an actual reference to the passage in either text.

its done by geneology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicon_(Jerome)

From Adam until the 14th year of Valens, 5,579 years
From Abraham to the Fall of Troy (26 kings of the Assyrians), 835 years

• Ninus, son of Belus reigned 52 years, Abraham, Zoroaster
• Semiramis, 42 years
• Zameis, 38 years; covenant of Abraham with God (1942 BC)
• Arius reigned for 30 years; birth of Isaac (1912 BC)
• Aralius, 40 years
• Xerxes Balaneus , 30 years; Inachus reigned for 50 years (1856 BC)
• Armamitres, 38 years
• Belocus, 35 years; birth of Joseph (1765 BC); Ogygian Flood (1757 BC)
• Balaeus, 52 years; famine in Egypt (1727 BC)
• Altadas, 32 years; Prometheus
• Mamynthus, 30 years
• Magchaleus, 30 years
• Sphaerus, 20 years; birth of Moses (1592 BC)
• Mamylus, 30 years
• Sparetus, 40 years; Deucalian flood (1526 BC)
• Ascatades, 40 years; Moses on Mount Sinai (1515 BC)
• Amynthes, 45 years; birth of Minos, Rhadamanthus, and Sarpedon (1445 BC)
• Belochus, 25 years
• Bellepares, 30 years; Perseus
• Lamprides, 32 years; Tros (1365 BC)
• Sosares, 20 years; Pegasus
• Lampares, 30 years; Europa, temple at Eleusis
• Pannias, 45 years; Miletus; Argonauts; Oedipus; Gideon
• Sosarmus, 19 years; Hercules, Priam, Theseus, Seven against Thebes (1234 BC)
• Mithraeus, 27 years; Olympic games (1212 BC)
• Tautanes, 32 years; Trojan War (1191-1182 BC)

From the Fall of Troy, until the first Olympiad, 405 years.

• from Ninus to Sardanapalus: 36 Assyrian kings (1240 years)

from the first Olympiad, to the 14th year of Valens, 1,155 years

• 1st Olympiad (776 BC)
• 65th Olympiad; Darius the Great (520 BC)
• 181st Olympiad; Julius Caesar (44 BC)
• 202nd Olympiad; preaching of Jesus Christ
• 289th Olympiad; Goths defeated by Huns (AD 377)

 

[fallingblood]

its done by geneology

But it's not actually citing the actual work of Jerome or Eusebius. An actual reference is not made. Incidentally, it does not even appear if your Wiki source even cites the actual work they are dealing with, which is highly problematic.

 

[Looncall]

But it's not actually citing the actual work of Jerome or Eusebius. An actual reference is not made. Incidentally, it does not even appear if your Wiki source even cites the actual work they are dealing with, which is highly problematic.

Why would anyone consider using an old collection of folk tales to determine the age of the universe or of the earth, especially when we have good physical evidence for those dates?

 

[roger_pearse]

its done by geneology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicon_(Jerome)

From Adam until the 14th year of Valens, 5,579 years

(etc)

Let's look at this claim. The name of Adam is probably what we need to look for. I don't think any of this is direct quotation, you know.


Here is Jerome's Chronicon. Complete. In English:

• St. Jerome, Chronicle (2004-5).* Preface of Jerome; Preface of Eusebius
• Jerome, Chronicle (2005) pp.16-187
• Jerome, Chronicle (2005) pp.188-332

Now see where, if anywhere, you can find the stuff given in the Wikipedia page. It looks like quotations: but clearly, it is not.

I've done a search on "Adam".

In Eusebius' preface, translated (and possibly modified) by Jerome, I find this:

Indeed, if you do not falter in carefulness and when you have diligently pored over the Divine Scripture, from the birth of Abraham back to the Flood of the whole earth, you will find 942 years, and from the flood back to Adam, 2242, in which no completely Greek, or barbarian or, to speak in general terms, gentile history is found.

But Eusebius starts his own chronicle from Abraham, so it is a little odd to find this stuff about Adam in it.

On p.20 (AA 44-45) I find this:

a The beginning of the 41st Jubilee, according to the Hebrews. Now, among them, the fiftieth year is called a 'jubilee'. Accordingly, after their calculation, there have been 2000 years from the time of Adam until the present.

On p.116 (985 AA) I find this:

a According to the third book of Kings, from Moses and the departure of Israel from Egypt down to Solomon and the building of the Temple, there are counted 480 years.
From the flood until Moses, 1,447 years.
From Adam until the flood, 2,242 years.
Altogether 4,169 years.

On p.257 (2044 A.A., 28 A.D.)

f There are computed to the present year, that is the 15th of Tiberius Caesar, from the year following the restoration of the temple, which was completed under the second year of Darius, king of the Persians, 548 years
from Solomon however, and the building of the first temple, 1060 years
from Moses, and the Exodus of Israel out of Egypt, 1539 years
from Abraham and the reign of Ninus and Semiramis, 2044 years
from the flood until Abraham, 942 years
from Adam until the flood, 2242 years

And right at the end of the chronicle, on the last page, there IS a total reckoning:

There are altogether from Adam until the 14th year of Valens, that is, until his 6th consulate and the second of Valentinian

5,579 years

The 14th year of Valens is 378 AD, so that gives a date for Adam of 5201 B.C. But is this the date of creation?


Book 1 of Eusebius Chronicle, as translated from the ancient Armenian translation, is here:

• Eusebius, Chronicle, Book 1 (2008).* Translated by Robert Bedrosian

It has the following interesting comment:

Our chronicle will not provide accounts about that existence [in Paradise] nor about how the Almighty established heaven and earth. This is how some [chroniclers] have thought [to begin]. Rather, we shall begin from the time that our human race experienced mortality and from [the time of] our first ancestor who set out on that path. [That ancestor] was the man named Adam, whose dying, mortal span of years was calculated in Hebrew literature, for it was from this point that Hebrew chronology began. Indeed, the Book of Moses [Genesis 3.23] describes it as follows:
"The Lord God sent him (that is, the first man) forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. And he drove Adam out and made him live outside the comforts of Paradise." Further on it says [Genesis 4.1]: "Now Adam knew Eve [g112] his wife and she conceived and bore Cain."

Our present chronology will begin at this point. The history of earlier, unknowable times will be set aside here, because it should be kept distinct from subsequent [verifiable] history.

There is a difficulty, in that we know that Eusebius' Chronicon was tampered with before it was translated into Armenian.

[According to this version] [the LXX - RP], 942 years transpired from the flood to the first year of Abraham, 2,242 years transpired from Adam to the flood, for a total of 3,184 years.

and then from Hebrew:

From Adam, a total of 1,948 years transpired. This [figure] differs from the [total for the] Septuagint translation by 1,235 years [g143].

And so on: there are endless calculations in the text about the date from Adam.

Anyone care to sift some more of these?

All the best,

Roger Pearse