7 layers of heaven

[Fatihah]

So the qur'an could say 2 layers, 3 layers, 9 layers, etc. and it would be equally miraculous. I guess miracles are easy to come by when one is flexible enough with their criteria.

Response: If the flexibility doesn't contridict the fact, then the miracle is still a miracle.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Response: If the flexibility doesn't contridict the fact, then the miracle is still a miracle.

When flexibility is required to define the miracle, it becomes less than miraculous. If you're flexible enough, anything can be twisted to fit the facts. The 7 layers of heaven being a prime example.

 

[YmirGF]

I'm still waiting for your proof, Fatihah. It's your claim that stars are in the atmosphere, so prove it.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm still waiting for your proof, Fatihah. It's your claim that stars are in the atmosphere, so prove it.

The stars have their own atmospheres, but apparently their atmospheres aren't part of the 7 layers of heaven, so the argument is rather irrelevant.

 

[skydivephil]

So if the qur'an said the moon was made of cheese, you could stay that what it really meant was the surface is made of oxygen, silicon, magnesium, iron, calcium, and aluminum with traces elements like titanium, uranium, thorium, potassium and hydrogen and wow amazing the qur'an has predicted exactly th composition of the lunar surface.
Change the definition of words and sure the Qur'an will become miraculous, so will any book. I await your definition of an atmospheric layer

 

[Kilgore Trout]

So if the qur'an said the moon was made of cheese, you could stay that what it really meant was the surface is made of oxygen, silicon, magnesium, iron, calcium, and aluminum with trace are also trace elements like titanium, uranium, thorium, potassium and hydrogen and wow amazing the qur'an has predicted exactly th composition of the lunar surface.
Change the definition of words and sure the Qur'an will become miraculous, so will any book. I await your definition of an atmospheric layer

Oh my god - cheese has oxygen in it too. Miracle!

 

[skydivephil]

Im off to bed speak to u soon I hope.

 

[Fatihah]

When flexibility is required to define the miracle, it becomes less than miraculous. If you're flexible enough, anything can be twisted to fit the facts. The 7 layers of heaven being a prime example.

Response: But the miracle is not responsible for the flexibility, so it's miraculous is still the same. For there are in fact 7 layers. If you decide to divide it differently, that does not change the miracle.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Response: But the miracle is not responsible for the flexibility, so it's miraculous is still the same.

But the flexibility is responsible for the miracle.

 

[YmirGF]

The stars have their own atmospheres, but apparently their atmospheres aren't part of the 7 layers of heaven, so the argument is rather irrelevant.

Unfortunately that is not what the passage says. I don't know about you but one really cannot have their cake and eat it too.

Still waiting for your proof, Fatihah.
Shall I get you a shovel?

 

[Fatihah]

I'm still waiting for your proof, Fatihah. It's your claim that stars are in the atmosphere, so prove it.

Response: You would first have to acknowledge that there is no proof that there is no stars in the atmosphere. Otherwise, I would be just here to entertain you. And I'm not an entertainer.

 

[Fatihah]

So if the qur'an said the moon was made of cheese, you could stay that what it really meant was the surface is made of oxygen, silicon, magnesium, iron, calcium, and aluminum with traces elements like titanium, uranium, thorium, potassium and hydrogen and wow amazing the qur'an has predicted exactly th composition of the lunar surface.
Change the definition of words and sure the Qur'an will become miraculous, so will any book. I await your definition of an atmospheric layer

Response: No, I can not change the meaning of the qur'an. Neither can you.

 

[YmirGF]

Response: You would first have to acknowledge that there is no proof that there is no stars in the atmosphere.

Now why would I do that? That is just plain silly.

Otherwise, I would be just here to entertain you. And I'm not an entertainer.

Don't sell yourself short, my friend, I think you are tremendously entertaining. I think I may nominate you for the RF Humor Award.

 

[Fatihah]

But the flexibility is responsible for the miracle.

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof?

 

[Cobblestones]

When flexibility is required to define the miracle, it becomes less than miraculous. If you're flexible enough, anything can be twisted to fit the facts. The 7 layers of heaven being a prime example.

"When someone is saved from certain death by a strange concatenation of circumstances, they say that's a miracle. But of course if someone is killed by a freak chain of events -- the oil spilled just there, the safety fence broken just there --that must also be a miracle. Just because it's not nice doesn't mean it's not miraculous."

From Interesting Times
-Terry Pratchett

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
Excuse me for a personal observation here, just could not help it.
Found it quite an interesting read the last 3/4 pages which brought about buddhu to buddhi but buddha missed.
Buddhu - fool
buddhi - intelligence
buddha - awakened.
Love & rgds

 

[Sahar]

The proper answer to that question about the 7 heavens, what are they?..etc. is we don't know yet, or it's possible that we won't know forever.
Fatihah, I think good questions were raised challenging the assumption that the 7 heavens refer to the layers of the Earth atmosphere, yet you chose to play your useless games which honestly harms the message that you are working to deliver.
Many assumptions were raised regarding the 7 heavens and the 7 earths mentioned in the Qur'an and it's all a matter of guessing let me say. One of these is our only way to know about the 7 heavens is through the Qur'an i.e. we believe in them as a part of the unseen that the Qur'an tells about and which we can't have knowledge about except by the way of revelation.
Many Islamic thinkers say that the universe is the lowest heaven, so...I wonder why you insist that it refers to the atmospheric layers?
I also found there is a linguistic aspect of the ayaat here and it's taken into the consideration of the scholars.

I wish if I could find any good English link, I'll keep searching.

 

[Dezzie]

41.12] So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

I don't think this section is talking about seven "Heavens"... I believe it is a symbol for Allah creating the Earth in SEVEN days. The lowest "Heaven" was where Allah created light, and so forth and so on.

 

[Sahar]

Ah, btw; our lack of knowledge about something like this doesn't prove that the Qur'an is flawed at all.

 

[Dezzie]

Religion in general is flawed in many ways... people have various interpretations of these things... there can never be just ONE answer to anything can there? The most people can do is spread their understandings and try to learn from others as well. Why do you think questions like this arise so often?