7 layers of heaven

[YmirGF]

The proper answer to that question about the 7 heavens, what are they?..etc. is we don't know yet, or it's possible that we won't know forever.

Thank you, not4me. This is an answer I have no issues with at all. It is a reasonable answer.

Fatihah, I think good questions were raised challenging the assumption that the 7 heavens refer to the layers of the Earth atmosphere, yet you chose to play your useless games which honestly harms the message that you are working to deliver.

*Wipes a tear from his frosty old eyes*
:clap :clap:clap:clap:clap

I wish if I could find any good English link, I'll keep searching.

Do keep us posted if you find something worth sharing.

 

[Gharib]

In the qur'an it says there are seven heavens:
67.3] Who created the seven heavens one above another; you see no incongruity in the creation of the Beneficent God; then look again, can you see any disorder?
[67.4] Then turn back the eye again and again; your look shall '~ come back to you confused while it is fatigued.
[67.5] And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps

41.12] So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

surely this is enough to show the qur'an is flawed ?
Please pick up an astronomy book and show me some evidence of seven heavens. I think you wont find any.

why would the quran be flawed due to this?

just because science has no answers that doesn't mean the quran is wrong. the quran states that there are 7 heavens (universes) but us humans will never be able to get past the borders of this lower universe. science will never discover these 6 other universes if it goes by the rule "if i don't see it or touch it, i won't believe it".

Allah states in the quran:
2:1. A.L.M.
2:2. This is the Book; In it is guidance sure, without doubt, To those who fear God;
2:3. Who believe in the Unseen, Are steadfast in prayer, And spend out of what WeHave provided for them;

the quran also mentiones the sun burning like fire but not actually being on fire. so just because science hadn't discovered this, the quran must have been wrong up until now. nice way of thinking.

and for the last heaven Allah says that he is expanding it, doesn't science say that our universe is expanding?

 

[skydivephil]

why would the quran be flawed due to this?

just because science has no answers that doesn't mean the quran is wrong. the quran states that there are 7 heavens (universes) but us humans will never be able to get past the borders of this lower universe. science will never discover these 6 other universes if it goes by the rule "if i don't see it or touch it, i won't believe it".

Allah states in the quran:
2:1. A.L.M.
2:2. This is the Book; In it is guidance sure, without doubt, To those who fear God;
2:3. Who believe in the Unseen, Are steadfast in prayer, And spend out of what WeHave provided for them;

the quran also mentiones the sun burning like fire but not actually being on fire. so just because science hadn't discovered this, the quran must have been wrong up until now. nice way of thinking.

and for the last heaven Allah says that he is expanding it, doesn't science say that our universe is expanding?

You are trying to have it both ways in yet another desperate attempt to make the Quran fit science. Notice how you believe the seven heavens are different universes and a different Islamic apologosts thiks its different layers of the atmosphere. Why isn' the Qur'am clear? why cant you guys agree? either god or Muhammad or the Angel Gabriel werent very good at communicating what they meant or it doesnt have anything to do with either concept.
Now the problem you have is that if these 7 heavens are 7 different universe, our univserse is exapnding , yet youve sad the Qur'an claims its the highest level thats expanding , dont forget the stars are in the lower level.
Next off does the Qur'an really say the universe is expanding? Ive heard the claim on Harun Yaha web site, but here are thrre different translation of the same verse:
51:47

YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

Lastly if the Qur'an was telling us sceintifically miraculous, you might it expect it to have some specific info like the age of the universe 13.7 billion years, or maybe the value of the Hubble constant 70.8 kn/sec . Of course the Qur'an has nothing like real scientific data becuase whats really going on is that Muslims are simply trying to retrofit sceintific data onto the Qur'an by changing the meaning of passages to give a completley false impression of scientific accuracy

 

[skydivephil]

Response: No, I can not change the meaning of the qur'an. Neither can you.

Well you've redfined the word "heaven" into layers of atmosphere, it doesnt say layers of atmosphere, so yes you have changed the meaning.
Even when you change the word heaven it stil doesnt fit science , so you also redefine science, in this case the defintion of atmospheric layer. There are five atmospheric layers, youve redefine them to include the ozone layer and the ionsosphere,. Again whats really funny is others have redefined it to inclue the magnetosphere. I guess you just mention any word with spehere at the end and try and make it fit.

 

[Gharib]

You are trying to have it both ways in yet another desperate attempt to make the Quran fit science.

i'm doing no such thing, it is you unfortunately who are trying to make the quran look like it doesn't fit science. if you seriously think that i'm "desperately" trying to make the quran "fit" into science then please let me know and i will stop posting, as it would be a waste of time to actually have a conversation with you.

Notice how you believe the seven heavens are different universes and a different Islamic apologosts thiks its different layers of the atmosphere. Why isn' the Qur'am clear? why cant you guys agree? either god or Muhammad or the Angel Gabriel werent very good at communicating what they meant or it doesnt have anything to do with either concept.

the quran is clear, but humans just incase you didn't know are subject to errors and now that i have explained to you what the verses referr to, i assume you are going to stop posting unrelated questions such as the ones above.

Now the problem you have is that if these 7 heavens are 7 different universe, our univserse is exapnding , yet youve sad the Qur'an claims its the highest level thats expanding , dont forget the stars are in the lower level.

where did i say the quran says "the highest level is expanding" can you show me that please?

Next off does the Qur'an really say the universe is expanding? Ive heard the claim on Harun Yaha web site, but here are thrre different translation of the same verse:51:47

the following verse says that it is expanding:

51:47 AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.

Lastly if the Qur'an was telling us sceintifically miraculous, you might it expect it to have some specific info like the age of the universe 13.7 billion years, or maybe the value of the Hubble constant 70.8 kn/sec . Of course the Qur'an has nothing like real scientific data becuase whats really going on is that Muslims are simply trying to retrofit sceintific data onto the Qur'an by changing the meaning of passages to give a completley false impression of scientific accuracy

the quran isn't a science book, one would be ignorant if they expected to see such numbers in the quran. it's the same as saying how can a math book be a math book when it's got words in it? :areyoucra

 

[Fatihah]

The proper answer to that question about the 7 heavens, what are they?..etc. is we don't know yet, or it's possible that we won't know forever.
Fatihah, I think good questions were raised challenging the assumption that the 7 heavens refer to the layers of the Earth atmosphere, yet you chose to play your useless games which honestly harms the message that you are working to deliver.
Many assumptions were raised regarding the 7 heavens and the 7 earths mentioned in the Qur'an and it's all a matter of guessing let me say. One of these is our only way to know about the 7 heavens is through the Qur'an i.e. we believe in them as a part of the unseen that the Qur'an tells about and which we can't have knowledge about except by the way of revelation.
Many Islamic thinkers say that the universe is the lowest heaven, so...I wonder why you insist that it refers to the atmospheric layers?
I also found there is a linguistic aspect of the ayaat here and it's taken into the consideration of the scholars.

I wish if I could find any good English link, I'll keep searching.

Response: It is not condoned in islam to dispute with another muslim concerning islam. It is not condoned in islam to speak or slander another muslim. It is not condoned in islam to make accusations about another muslim without proof. From your posts above, you've committed all 3. This is very disappointing and hurts extremely that you would behave in such a way and attack me. I do not appreciate that.

So because of this, unfortunately for you now, that gives me right to question your motives and attack you!! So , now you must face the question,
"There's the statement. Where's the proof?" Prove to me in fact that what I've said concerning the heavens is wrong , instead of riding the coat tails of kaffiruns. Produce your own proof. And this time, don't run. The ball is in your court now. And we can see exactly who is . Because if there's one thing I don't tolerate, it's the display of ignorance by someone calling themself a muslim, preaching as if they have knowledge, when in actuality, their clueless. That means that such a person is putting their ego over the message of islam and distorting the message in the name of islam. And since you've opted to choose that road, then I will make it my business to expose you and make it clear just are. So like I said, "Produce your proof".

 

[Mr Cheese]

the 7 of course refers to the mystical ideas of the body

7 days
7 directions
7 heavens
7 planets
7 chakras
7 stages of alchemy

that which must be perfected

then once perfected, must be LEFT BEHIND

"When we gain great power, we must give it away
A cup cannot be filled unless it is emptied"

or to put it simply:

Visita Interiora Terrae REctificando Invenies Occultum lapidem (VITRIOL)

visit the interior of the earth through purification you will find the hidden stone



...


search within yourself, through purification you will find yourself.

You will awaken the 7 chakras, you will find yourself, you will be one with every direction (up down left right forward backward inwards....)

and only then,,,,'

will you reach 8

I of course understand this is way beyond most people here
but, if it ignites a thought or a eureka moment in someone....
then it was worth it

 

[YmirGF]

I of course understand this is way beyond most people here
but, if it ignites a thought or a eureka moment in someone....
then it was worth it

 

[Mr Cheese]

why the face? lol

 

[skydivephil]

the quran is clear, but humans just incase you didn't know are subject to errors and now that i have explained to you what the verses referr to, i assume you are going to stop posting unrelated questions such as the ones above.



where did i say the quran says "the highest level is expanding" can you show me that please?



the following verse says that it is expanding:

51:47 AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.




the quran isn't a science book, one would be ignorant if they expected to see such numbers in the quran. it's the same as saying how can a math book be a math book when it's got words in it? :areyoucra

You havent explained the verse, youve merely made an unsubstantiated claim about it. That is that the 7 heavens are seven different universes. What reason have you got to interpret it as universes? This is of course inconsistent with what many other Muslims have been saying. Your next problem is that theories that postulate other universes imply they will be near infintie in number, not seven, if they exist at all. You might want to read up on this:
Multiverse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The next problem is the Qur'an says the "heavens" are above one another:
"67.3Who created the seven heavens one above another; you see no incongruity in the creation of the Beneficent God; then look again, can you see any disorder?"

if there are other universes they would have to be in a hgiher dimension, but up is contained within our familair spatial dimensions. Also "up " has no meaning in sapce.Again a bit of reading on the science of this subject might help.

As to your question where did u say it was the highest level that was expanding, you said on post 82
"and for the last heaven Allah says that he is expanding it"
I took last heaven to mean highest one, but even if you did not mean that, the problem is the stars are in the lowest heaven.

You say the verse 51:47 says expanding, but I have given you several translations and none of them say that. But here are a few more:
Online Quran Project (OQP)
47) And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
وَٱلسَّمَآءَ بَنَيْنَٰهَا بِأَيْي۟دٍۢ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ ﴿٧٤﴾ (48) And the earth, We have made it a wide extent; how well have We then spread (it) out.
وَٱلْأَرْضَ فَرَشْنَٰهَا فَنِعْمَ ٱلْمَٰهِدُونَ ﴿٨٤

Here'sa good web site, because it gives three different translators of the Qur'an , I believe I already posted it, but you igored it, so here it is again:

Multilingual Quran
[Shakir 51:47] And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 51:47] With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 51:47] We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).[/SIZE]

So we have four different transslations none of which say anyhting about an expanding universe. Note something interesting , Shakir is believed to be a plagarised translation from Maulana Muhammad Ali’s 1917 translation:
Shakir’s Quran translation - blatant plagiarism of the first edition of Maulana Muhammad Ali’s translation

Yusufali translation was in 1934 and Pickthal also in the 1930's. Nonce of them mention anyhting about the universe expanding because it was not confirmed until the dsicovery of the CMB in 1964:
Big Bang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/movement/shakir.htm

of course after that Islamic scholars decided to retranslate the Qur'an saying space is exapnding. This is known as retro fitting.
Note also; when there was a fierce debate over the reality fo the BIg Bang during the post war period,Where were the Islamic scholars, saying we know the big bang is real becuase the Qur'an says so? You can read about it here:
http://www.aip.org/history/cosmology/ideas/bigbang.htm
They said no such thing, instaed they retrofitted the meaning of the passage after the discovery was made. That's cheating.

You are right the Qur'an isnt a science book. But those that claim it has scientific statements in it , should be put to the same scrutiny as any scientific statement. You claimed the Qur'an talks of the expansion of the universe and thats why I point out the complete lack of any specific about it. Thast why its relevant that theres no mention of anything thats actually objective in it. Just a vague passage that later apologists have retranslated to make it fit what they like.

 

[kai]

Danger! Will Robinson, Danger! Vortex alert ! Vortex Alert!

 

[Fatihah]

Well you've redfined the word "heaven" into layers of atmosphere, it doesnt say layers of atmosphere, so yes you have changed the meaning.
Even when you change the word heaven it stil doesnt fit science , so you also redefine science, in this case the defintion of atmospheric layer. There are five atmospheric layers, youve redefine them to include the ozone layer and the ionsosphere,. Again whats really funny is others have redefined it to inclue the magnetosphere. I guess you just mention any word with spehere at the end and try and make it fit.

Response: I didn't redefine the word heaven. So this is just an example of your warped reading. Heaven is synonymous to the word "atmosphere", not a redifinition. Secondly, you yourself have admitted that the layers mentioned do exists, so you yourself are agreeing that science agrees with the qur'an from your own words. The qur'an clearly states that each layer performs specific duties, thereby you're mentioning of other layers is confirming that fact, for it is from those layers which other layers are formed. You're play of words won't work here.

According to your logic, if I divide a pizza into 8 slices and you come along and divide the 8 into 12, then that somehow means that I never divided it into 8. That's absurd. Your actions have nothing to do with what I did. Similarly, the earth's atmosphere was divided into 7 and perform specific duties. If from those 7 layers other layers are formed, that still does not contradict the fact that originally there were 7, thereby the verse is in complete agreement with science. So the fact that there are other layers does not contradict the qur'an, making your point severely pointless.

 

[Mr Cheese]

just look at the posts....

its all about literalism...

so once again I stand by my assertion, its really beyond most people here

 

[YmirGF]

According to your logic...

Still waiting for you to prove your original point, that stars exist in the atmosphere, Fatihah.


Take your time, I'm sure that proving this won't be an easy task.

 

[YmirGF]

just look at the posts....

its all about literalism...

so once again I stand by my assertion, its really beyond most people here

 

[Fatihah]

Still waiting for you to prove your original point, that stars exist in the atmosphere, Fatihah.


Take your time, I'm sure that proving this won't be an easy task.

Response: Still waiting for your admission that you have no proof that they are not. Once that is done, then and only then can the proof be presented.

 

[Mr Cheese]

heh its ok to think the idea of 7 heavens is astronomy

but frankly, considering it is found again and again and again in different traditions

points to something a bit different...

but thats ok, you guys can argue about metaphysical concepts...
as though they are science if you like....

 

[YmirGF]

heh its ok to think the idea of 7 heavens is astronomy

but frankly, considering it is found again and again and again in different traditions

points to something a bit different...

Yes, it points to the fact that they are all likely quite wrong, amusing yes, but wrong nonetheless. It is an inconvenient truth, n'est pas?

but thats ok, you guys can argue about metaphysical concepts...
as though they are science if you like....

Well if you are happy supporting weak thinking, then be my guest. Personally I have difficulty with baseless claims, but perhaps that's me.

 

[Sahar]

Response: It is not condoned in islam to dispute with another muslim concerning islam. It is not condoned in islam to speak or slander another muslim. It is not condoned in islam to make accusations about another muslim without proof. From your posts above, you've committed all 3. This is very disappointing and hurts extremely that you would behave in such a way and attack me. I do not appreciate that.

Slander another Muslim? God!!
Can't we disagree with each other just for the fact you are my Muslim brother? When I reject what you say and when it seems unreasonable and dishonest to me, I will express myself.
When I see an approach that I think it harms the da'wa of Islam, I won't hesitate to point it out. I sometimes disagree strongly with some Muslims here, it's not something new. And some Muslims disagree with me.

So because of this, unfortunately for you now, that gives me right to question your motives and attack you!! So Ms. Know it all, now you must face the question,
"There's the statement. Where's the proof?" Prove to me in fact that what I've said concerning the heavens is wrong Ms. Know it all, instead of riding the coat tails of kaffiruns. Produce your own proof. And this time, don't run. The ball is in your court now. And we can see exactly who is "useless". Because if there's one thing I don't tolerate, it's the display of ignorance by someone calling themself a muslim, preaching as if they have knowledge, when in actuality, their clueless. That means that such a person is putting their ego over the message of islam and distorting the message in the name of islam. And since you've opted to choose that road, then I will make it my business to expose you and make it clear just how absurd you are. So like I said, "Produce your proof".

What a shame.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Yes, it points to the fact that they are all likely quite wrong, amusing yes, but wrong nonetheless. It is an inconvenient truth, n'est pas?

Well if you are happy supporting weak thinking, then be my guest. Personally I have difficulty with baseless claims, but perhaps that's me.

heh....

baseless claims....

ok fair enough...

pearls and swine...