7 layers of heaven

[kai]

Fatihah you have reached the pinnacle of you contribution on RF, it could not get any worse than this. admitting your wrong does not make the Quran wrong. listen to Not4me she has a wise head on her shoulders.

 

[kai]

Well, that's a bit harsh. A loser and wrong huh? You're a "winner" in your eyes but you are doing a horrible job at showing the love of Islam to others. No offense or anything.

I think she is being honest about it before Fatihahs ridiculous attempts to justify things get trampled all over by the other posters and people go away with the wrong impression of Islam merely because Fatihah doesn't grasp his own argument then tries to wriggle out of it.

 

[Fatihah]

Fatihah you have reached the pinnacle of you contribution on RF, it could not get any worse than this. admitting your wrong does not make the Quran wrong. listen to Not4me she has a wise head on her shoulders.

Response: And to say I am wrong without proof that I'm wrong, is the pinnacle of your own logic, thus your likeness to Not4me is expected, as birds of a feather flock together.

 

[Fatihah]

I think she is being honest about it before Fatihahs ridiculous attempts to justify things get trampled all over by the other posters and people go away with the wrong impression of Islam merely because Fatihah doesn't grasp his own argument then tries to wriggle out of it.

Response: To the contrary, the simple fact that nothing can be refuted, nor can you show otherwise, that alone will strengthen islam, while your inability to provide proof helps to further that goal.

 

[Dezzie]

I think she is being honest about it before Fatihahs ridiculous attempts to justify things get trampled all over by the other posters and people go away with the wrong impression of Islam merely because Fatihah doesn't grasp his own argument then tries to wriggle out of it.

I see what you mean but I still don't believe it is right to say something that way. It could have been worded in a better form. I understand people try to get their point across to some people but through forums and little messages, it is not as easy as it would be in person. I think the trension just grows quite frequently when things such as this are said. Tension is not something that is needed. If no one likes what Fatihah says, ignore him and make "arguments" with more understanding people. Fatihah still has the right to speak his own mind. Just like everyone else does. I think this forum has a small popularity contest honestly. I've noticed that a close niche of people, or "friends" may I add, tend to gang up on some other people.

 

[kai]

Um, Fatihah, if the seven heavens refers to the 7 different layers of the atmosphere, how is is that "and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard". Are you suggesting that "brilliant stars" exist in the atmosphere?

Response: Yes. Are you suggesting that there are no stars in the atmosphere?

Yes, as a matter of fact I am. Do you know anything at all about something called "space"?

Given that the nearest star to Earth is a tad under 93,000,000 miles away, does put it a tiny bit outside the earth's atmosphere -- by a tad under 93,000,000 miles.

Response: It's still in the atmosphere.

totally amazed by this.

 

[Fatihah]

I see what you mean but I still don't believe it is right to say something that way. It could have been worded in a better form. I understand people try to get their point across to some people but through forums and little messages, it is not as easy as it would be in person. I think the trension just grows quite frequently when things such as this are said. Tension is not something that is needed. If no one likes what Fatihah says, ignore him and make "arguments" with more understanding people. Fatihah still has the right to speak his own mind. Just like everyone else does. I think this forum has a small popularity contest honestly. I've noticed that a close niche of people, or "friends" may I add, tend to gang up on some other people.

Response: Thank you. I couldn't agree more. Yes it is very much a popularity contest unfortunately.

 

[kai]

I see what you mean but I still don't believe it is right to say something that way. It could have been worded in a better form. I understand people try to get their point across to some people but through forums and little messages, it is not as easy as it would be in person. I think the trension just grows quite frequently when things such as this are said. Tension is not something that is needed. If no one likes what Fatihah says, ignore him and make "arguments" with more understanding people. Fatihah still has the right to speak his own mind. Just like everyone else does. I think this forum has a small popularity contest honestly. I've noticed that a close niche of people, or "friends" may I add, tend to gang up on some other people.

OK i get your point, I thought it was rather tame. here on RF i disagree with lots of people but still remain "friends" and may even agree on other subjects i disagree with Fatihah most of the time and i have had some dissagreements with not4me over the years. I think its important to say what you mean but i also think its important not to overstep the mark and i dont think not4me did overstep the mark. There! we can disagree on that.

 

[Fatihah]

totally amazed by this.

Response: So am I.

 

[Dezzie]

OK i get your point, I thought it was rather tame. here on RF i disagree with lots of people but still remain "friends" and may even agree on other subjects i disagree with Fatihah most of the time and i have had some dissagreements with not4me over the years. I think its important to say what you mean but i also think its important not to overstep the mark and i dont think not4me did overstep the mark. There! we can disagree on that.

haha woot!

 

[kai]

Response: So am I.

birds of a feather

 

[Dezzie]

Response: Thank you. I couldn't agree more. Yes it is very much a popularity contest unfortunately.

I'm not really here to pick sides but... you are welcome.

 

[Dezzie]

“You should respect each other and refrain from disputes; you should not, like water and oil, repel each other, but should, like milk and water, mingle together.”
-Buddha-

 

[YmirGF]

Well, that's a bit harsh. A loser and wrong huh? You're a "winner" in your eyes but you are doing a horrible job at showing the love of Islam to others. No offense or anything.

I think you have completely misunderstood what Not4me is really saying. What she is really saying is that she isn't interested in squabbles about who is right or who is wrong. If you look over her body of post, you will discover what I am saying is true. She isn't interested in discussions of this type. If you look at her statement AS it was intended, you will find she reflects the heart of Islam very well.

Personally, I think you owe this young lady an apology.

“You should respect each other and refrain from disputes; you should not, like water and oil, repel each other, but should, like milk and water, mingle together.”
-Buddha-

Don't you find it odd that a man who dealt with reality as it is would think to suggest how things should be?

 

[Dezzie]

I think you have completely misunderstood what Not4me is really saying. What she is really saying is that she isn't interested in squabbles about who is right or who is wrong. If you look over her body of post, you will discover what I am saying is true. She isn't interested in discussions of this type. If you look at her statement AS it was intended, you will find she reflects the heart of Islam very well.

Personally, I think you owe this young lady an apology.

Well... that is your opinion... that of which you, just like myself am willing to have. If you read what I said to Kai, you would notice that I mentioned, writing things over small messages can be misinterrpreted. All I merely stated was messages can be read the wrong way... I stated that she could have said it a different way. I do not feel that what I said was wrong... but... since it was through a message I can understand why it would sound that way. I will only apologize because it sounded as such. I will not apologize for having my own opinion though... Since everyone else on this forum is open so much to having their own.

 

[YmirGF]

Well... that is your opinion... that of which you, just like myself am willing to have. If you read what I said to Kai, you would notice that I mentioned, writing things over small messages can be misinterrpreted. All I merely stated was messages can be read the wrong way... I stated that she could have said it a different way. I do not feel that what I said was wrong... but... since it was through a message I can understand why it would sound that way. I will only apologize because it sounded as such. I will not apologize for having my own opinion though... Since everyone else on this forum is open so much to having their own.

Fair enough, but you must also keep in mind that English is not the first language of many posters on RF.

 

[Dezzie]

Fair enough, but you must also keep in mind that English is not the first language of many posters on RF.

I understand... that is why I apologized.

 

[Dezzie]

Don't you find it odd that a man who dealt with reality as it is would think to suggest how things should be?

I know I focus too much on what should be... hmph... it's not like I can change anyone by myself either. People can dream right? I deal with how reality is now but I still notice how things should be...

 

[Sahar]

Well, that's a bit harsh. A loser and wrong huh? You're a "winner" in your eyes but you are doing a horrible job at showing the love of Islam to others. No offense or anything.

My point was it's not about me or anyone else (including fatihah) being loser or winner. Fatihah's concern was to prove who is right and who is wrong and I disagreed with this way of thinking.
I simply expressed what is on my mind just like anyone else.

God, I don't like the way this thread turned into.
Fatihah is my brother in Islam, this is one. I am not waiting for non Muslims' clapping or something, this is something between me and Allah. And on the contrary I don't reply to posts of certain non Muslim members who insist on insulting my religion and its followers.

My first reply was basically showing that not all Muslims agree on the interpretation that Fatihah defended but there are other opinions on this issue. Secondly, I didn't like fatihah's replies as I wish if they were more constructive so that I myself could find his explanation convincing and I didn't like his replying methods.
He took it personally and very emotionally but the fact is him being Muslim doesn't mean that I automatically have to agree with him or his debating ways or I have to be silent about anything he said and on which I disagreed.
This is the entire issue from my side.

 

[skydivephil]

Response: First off, as for whether the atmosphere and heavens are synonymous, try looking at a dictionary. The fact that you had to ask that question is very telling. Secondly, there is not a single verse, I repeat, not a single verse in the qur'an, which states that there are stars in the lower heaven. You disagree? Prove otherwise. When you fail, because you will, your own words will prove the truth of the qur'an. Third, you simply saying that there is not 7 layers is not proof. "Saying" so is not proof that it "is" so. If that's the case, then the heavens do in fact have 7 layers. How do I know? Because it "says" so. Fourth, the qur'an says that Allah created 7 heavens. Each layer below:

The troposphere,stratosphere,ozone layer, mesosphere, thermosphere, ionosphere, and exosphere, adds up to 7. If you are saying that there are not 7, then tell us of the list above, which is not actually a layer. When you fail, that alone proves that there are 7 layers. If your answer is that there are more than 7 layers, than your point is pointless. For the verse is referring to the layers in which Allah has created. Any other layer is a creation from the 7 layers originally created by Allah, which is in fact in agreeance with science. So even the fact that there are more than 7 does not contradict anything, because no where in the qur'an does it say that there are only 7 heavens, but says that the heavens in which were directly created by Allah is 7. You disagree? Prove otherwise. When you fail, because you will, then your own words will stand as witness to the truth of the qur'an.

Heavens= atmospheric layers does it?and should look that up in a dictionary, ok I did
1. the abode of God, the angels, and the spirits of the righteous after death; the place or state of existence of the blessed after the mortal life.
2. (initial capital letter) Often, Heavens. the celestial powers; God.
3. a metonym for God (used in expressions of emphasis, surprise, etc.): For heaven's sake!
4. heavens,
a. (used interjectionally to express emphasis, surprise, etc.): Heavens, what a cold room!
b. (used with a singular verb) a wooden roof or canopy over the outer stage of an Elizabethan theater.
5. Usually, heavens. the sky, firmament, or expanse of space surrounding the earth.
6. a place or state of supreme happiness: She made his life a heaven on earth.

Nowhere here says atmospheric layer? Now I know you are going to claim definition 5 fits the bills, but there are not seven sky's are there? Of course you will claim that there are 7 layers of the atmosphere. Let me put you straight yet again. The ionosphere and the the ozone layer are not atmospheric layers, that you claim they are shows you no nothing about atmospheric science.
If you read anything about atmospheric science you will see the definition of atmospheric layer is that it refers to how temperature correlate with altitude . The first layer of the atmosphere, the Troposphere has temperature declining as altitude increases, the next layer the Stratosphere has temperatures increasing with altitude and this flips a total of FIVE times making five layers of the atmosphere.
They are:
1The Troposphere
2 The Stratosphere
3 The Mesosphere
4 The Thermosphere
5 The Exosphere


I've given you the references for this five, please reread post 43 for 5 independent references to back up what I am saying.
Now if you are claiming that the ionosphere and the ozone layer are atmospheric layers, then can you also tell us why you ignore the heterosphere or the magnetosphere or the planetary boundary layer?

And can you tell us how you are defining atmospheric layer?
Ill ask that again because you keep ignoring the crucial point
How are you defining atmospheric layers?
and why don't I ask it yet it again?
HOW ARE YOU DEFINING LAYERS OF THE ATMOSPHERE?

Now you say that the verse refers only to the levels that Allah created, so who created the others? Would you still claim the Qur'an was accurate if it said he created the four continents or the 3 seas or the 10 moons? I think you would say it was accurate no matter what it said.

Maybe you haven't read my posts. There is not a single verse in the Qur'an that says there are stars in the lower atmosphere?Really?
I've already showed it to you, since you simply ignore it .Il make it clear for you, lets write it out five times shall we, one for each layer of the atmosphere


41.12] So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

41.12] So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.



41.12 So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

41.12] So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

41.12] So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.



Lastly perhaps you could answer my point about the Qur'an talking about what is between the Earth and the heavens. If the heavens refer to layers of the atmosphere then this makes no since you've told me one of the layers of the atmosphere is the troposphere and this begins at ground level!!!!! So tell me what is between the Earth and troposphere????