7 layers of heaven

[kai]

So tell me what is between the Earth and troposphere????




The vortexosphere

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
After 15 pages,

How many layers could we reach, to heaven?
R we still on earth or hell?
Its hellish here, only dust from the storm.
yes once it settles, there will be peace on earth!

Love & rgds

 

[Fatihah]

Heavens= atmospheric layers does it?and should look that up in a dictionary, ok I did
1. the abode of God, the angels, and the spirits of the righteous after death; the place or state of existence of the blessed after the mortal life.
2. (initial capital letter) Often, Heavens. the celestial powers; God.
3. a metonym for God (used in expressions of emphasis, surprise, etc.): For heaven's sake!
4. heavens,
a. (used interjectionally to express emphasis, surprise, etc.): Heavens, what a cold room!
b. (used with a singular verb) a wooden roof or canopy over the outer stage of an Elizabethan theater.
5. Usually, heavens. the sky, firmament, or expanse of space surrounding the earth.
6. a place or state of supreme happiness: She made his life a heaven on earth.

Nowhere here says atmospheric layer? Now I know you are going to claim definition 5 fits the bills, but there are not seven sky's are there? Of course you will claim that there are 7 layers of the atmosphere. Let me put you straight yet again. The ionosphere and the the ozone layer are not atmospheric layers, that you claim they are shows you no nothing about atmospheric science.
If you read anything about atmospheric science you will see the definition of atmospheric layer is that it refers to how temperature correlate with altitude . The first layer of the atmosphere, the Troposphere has temperature declining as altitude increases, the next layer the Stratosphere has temperatures increasing with altitude and this flips a total of FIVE times making five layers of the atmosphere.
They are:
1The Troposphere
2 The Stratosphere
3 The Mesosphere
4 The Thermosphere
5 The Exosphere


I've given you the references for this five, please reread post 43 for 5 independent references to back up what I am saying.
Now if you are claiming that the ionosphere and the ozone layer are atmospheric layers, then can you also tell us why you ignore the heterosphere or the magnetosphere or the planetary boundary layer?

And can you tell us how you are defining atmospheric layer?
Ill ask that again because you keep ignoring the crucial point
How are you defining atmospheric layers?
and why don't I ask it yet it again?
HOW ARE YOU DEFINING LAYERS OF THE ATMOSPHERE?

Now you say that the verse refers only to the levels that Allah created, so who created the others? Would you still claim the Qur'an was accurate if it said he created the four continents or the 3 seas or the 10 moons? I think you would say it was accurate no matter what it said.

Maybe you haven't read my posts. There is not a single verse in the Qur'an that says there are stars in the lower atmosphere?Really?
I've already showed it to you, since you simply ignore it .Il make it clear for you, lets write it out five times shall we, one for each layer of the atmosphere


41.12] So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

41.12] So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.



41.12 So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

41.12] So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

41.12] So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.



Lastly perhaps you could answer my point about the Qur'an talking about what is between the Earth and the heavens. If the heavens refer to layers of the atmosphere then this makes no since you've told me one of the layers of the atmosphere is the troposphere and this begins at ground level!!!!! So tell me what is between the Earth and troposphere????

Response: Again, the error of your ways are getting amusing. How you've managed to completely dodge the questions asked to you as if I wouldn't notice is very telling. So for starters, since you have the habit of asking dozens of questions in a single post, let's address them one at a time. The first question which you've dodged in post 115 is the request of you to point out which layer is not an atmospheric layer. You've completely ignored it again. So let's try again. Of the list below, which is not an atmospheric layer?

1.Troposphere
2.Stratosphere
3.Ozone layer
4.Mesosphere
5. Thermosphere
6. Ionosphere
7. Exosphere.

 

[skydivephil]

I haven't dodged, Ive been exceptionally clear.
The ozone layer is not an atmospheric layer, nor is the ionsphere. They are in the atmosphere but they are not atmospheric layers themselves. Don't believe me:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/science-vs-religion/88380-7-layers-heaven-5.html
here on post 50 I've given 5 independent web sites all agreeing with what I say.
I've answered your question , now you answer mine.
What is your definition of layer of the atmosphere that allows you to conclude there are seven?

 

[skydivephil]

let me give you a link that might help you:
The Ionosphere

Their quote:

"Scientists call the ionosphere an extension of the thermosphere. So technically, the ionosphere is not another atmospheric layer."

Thats from the origanisation that represents teachers of Earth and Space Sciences

 

[skydivephil]

or you might find this image helps:
Windows to the Universe

Again this is from the National Centre for Atmospheric Research and they say five layers, sorry mate.

 

[YmirGF]

or you might find this image helps:
Windows to the Universe

Again this is from the National Centre for Atmospheric Research and they say five layers, sorry mate.

Oh, be serious. What would this group of amateurs know?
Fatihah is talking about revelation, baby and we all know that revelation cannot be wrong because it cannot be wrong because it is always right. If your answers don't fit with revelation, your answers are wrong. Deal with it. (I don't believe I have to explain something so breathtakingly obvious.)

 

[Fatihah]

I haven't dodged, Ive been exceptionally clear.
The ozone layer is not an atmospheric layer, nor is the ionsphere. They are in the atmosphere but they are not atmospheric layers themselves. Don't believe me:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/science-vs-religion/88380-7-layers-heaven-5.html
here on post 50 I've given 5 independent web sites all agreeing with what I say.
I've answered your question , now you answer mine.
What is your definition of layer of the atmosphere that allows you to conclude there are seven?

Response: The ozone layer is not an atmospheric layers? Then what is it then? This, we all have to hear.

 

[skydivephil]

I answered your question. I believe its only fair that you answer my question
How do you define layers of the atmosphere that leads you to the conclusion that there are seven, not five or ten?

But just to be charitable. Ozone is a pale blue gas made of three oxygen atoms. In the atmospheric layer known as the stratosphere there are ozone levels sufficient to block out at Uv radiation. this is known as the ozone layer. But its not a level of the atmosphere for two reasons.
1 Its inside the stratosphere. You agreed the stratosphere is one of the layers, so how can the ozone layer which is inside the stratosphere also be a layer?
2 Atmospheric layers are defined by the way temperature relates to altitude. I've shown you this so many times its not funny. Its not just me saying it either. The NAtional Centre for Atmospheric Research say the same thing. The fact the ozone layer is in the stratosphere does not mean its defined as an atmospheric layer. After all clouds are in the troposphere, should we count them as well?
So now are you going to answer my question?
Or is that beyond you?

 

[Fatihah]

But just to be charitable. Ozone is a pale blue gas made of three oxygen atoms.?

Response: Exactly. And the definition of atmosphere is a gaseous mass surrounding a celestial body. Based on your own definition, is the ozone layer a gas? Yes. Does it surround a celestial body? Yes. Is it a layer. Yes. It's name gives that answer away. (Ozone "LAYER"). Thus by your own words, the ozone layer is an atmospheric layer. Thank you for confirming the truth of the qur'an. Good bye.

 

[skydivephil]

You are confusing the definition of the atmosphere with the definition of atmospheric layers. I defined (and so do all professional atmospheric scientists) atmospheric layers by their changing thermal properties in relation to altitude. This leads to the conclusion of 5, not 7 layers.

If you use your definition of atmosphere to define atmospheric layers then clouds must be layers of the atmosphere too because clouds are made of water vapor and vapor is the gaseous state of water. The qur'an is clear that Allah creates the clouds:
2.57 And We made the clouds to give shade over you
You said that the atmospheric layers were defined by what god made, according to the Qur'an god made the clouds, they are a gas
WikiAnswers - Are clouds a solid liquid or a gas
So by your definition there are not seven layers of heaven.
Thats why I asked you for your definition of atmospheric layer, yet you refuse to answer this question directly. Yet you accuse me of dodging, that is hilarious.
So lets ask the question yet again, what is your definition of atmospheric layer that enables you to conclude there are seven? Will you every answer this question? I doubt it because you haven't really got even a basic grasp of atmospheric physics have you?

 

[Fatihah]

You are confusing the definition of the atmosphere with the definition of atmospheric layers. I defined (and so do all professional atmospheric scientists) atmospheric layers by their changing thermal properties in relation to altitude.

Response: You said it best. "You defined". Thus from your own mouth, it is not "the" definition, but "your" definition. So once again, your own words are demonstrating the errors of your logic.

 

[skydivephil]

It is "the definition", I gave 5 different and independent web sites that all agree including the National Centre for Atmospheric Research.
So yet again I will repeat my question, what definition of atmospheric layer are you using that lets you conclude there are seven? How many times do I have to ask this question before you answer it?

 

[Fatihah]

It is "the definition", I gave 5 different and independent web sites that all agree including the National Centre for Atmospheric Research.
So yet again I will repeat my question, what definition of atmospheric layer are you using that lets you conclude there are seven? How many times do I have to ask this question before you answer it?

Response: And all of your websites ageed with the wrong definition. Websites don't define the english language. As for your question, it's been answered twice already. You can refer to post 150.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof?

Just read through the thread Fatihah.

 

[skydivephil]

Response: And all of your websites ageed with the wrong definition. Websites don't define the english language. As for your question, it's been answered twice already. You can refer to post 150.

Of course everyone in the field of atmospheric science has the wrong definition. You of course with the your great expertise in atmospheric physics have the right definition. Except you cant even understand the difference between 'the atmosphere" and "atmospheric layers". If you define atmospheric layers as a gaseous mixture, how would there be seven of them? Of course there can't, thats why I didn't ask you to define the atmopshere. ( Alittle clue that would by necessity imply only one). I asked you to define atmospheric layers, you still haven't done this , why not?

 

[Fatihah]

Of course everyone in the field of atmospheric science has the wrong definition. You of course with the your great expertise in atmospheric physics have the right definition. Except you cant even understand the difference between 'the atmosphere" and "atmospheric layers". If you define atmospheric layers as a gaseous mixture, how would there be seven of them? Of course there can't, thats why I didn't ask you to define the atmopshere. ( Alittle clue that would by necessity imply only one). I asked you to define atmospheric layers, you still haven't done this , why not?

Response: It is not my job to explain to you basic english. If you don't know what a compound word is and how it works, that is not my problem. Do you know what "red" is? Do you know a "shirt" is? Then you should know what a "red shirt" is. This is simple english. I've given you the definitin of atmosphere in post 150, common sense should tell you what "layer" means, so you should know what an "atmospheric layer" is. If you can't grasp this simple basic english, then you are wasting my time, because such a language is common sense, and I do not debate over common sense.

 

[skydivephil]

Response: It is not my job to explain to you basic english. If you don't know what a compound word is and how it works, that is not my problem. Do you know what "red" is? Do you know a "shirt" is? Then you should know what a "red shirt" is. This is simple english. I've given you the definitin of atmosphere in post 150, common sense should tell you what "layer" means, so you should know what an "atmospheric layer" is. If you can't grasp this simple basic english, then you are wasting my time, because such a language is common sense, and I do not debate over common sense.

Your analogy makes zero sense.
Basic English cannot help us udnerstand the internal structure of the atmosphere, that is laughable.
Are you suggesting the floors of a building are the same thing as the building?
If I have a building where each storey (or floor whatever you want to call it)is 12 feet tall and the bulding is 120 feet tall. I will have one building and 10 stories,correct? If we are going to agree on how many there are we need to agree on how to define a storey. The definition of a story cannot be the same as the deifniton of th bulding. Wikipedia defines a storey as
"The height of each storey is based on the ceiling height of the rooms plus the thickness of the floors between each"
Now if one knew nothing about the internal structure of a building one would not necessarily be able to determine how many floors it had or even what the concpet meant unless they were visible. Here is a picture of a building where this is so:
Spaceship Earth - Epcot
Clearly the layers of the atmosphere are not visible or do you claim you can see the stratosphere change into the mesosphere? so it would be imposible to determine what they are from "common sense" as you claim. in Fact you think the professional atmospheric physicists have the defintion wrong. These claims are ridiculous. You are just dodging the question yet again. We all know why you wont asnwer the question of how to define an atmospheric layer, because there is no deifniton you can give that is logically consistent and allows you to conclude there are seven.

 

[Fatihah]

Your analogy makes zero sense.
Basic English cannot help us udnerstand the internal structure of the atmosphere, that is laughable.
Are you suggesting the floors of a building are the same thing as the building?
If I have a building where each storey (or floor whatever you want to call it)is 12 feet tall and the bulding is 120 feet tall. I will have one building and 10 stories,correct? If we are going to agree on how many there are we need to agree on how to define a storey. The definition of a story cannot be the same as the deifniton of th bulding. Wikipedia defines a storey as
"The height of each storey is based on the ceiling height of the rooms plus the thickness of the floors between each"
Now if one knew nothing about the internal structure of a building one would not necessarily be able to determine how many floors it had or even what the concpet meant unless they were visible. Here is a picture of a building where this is so:
Spaceship Earth - Epcot
Clearly the layers of the atmosphere are not visible or do you claim you can see the stratosphere change into the mesosphere? so it would be imposible to determine what they are from "common sense" as you claim. in Fact you think the professional atmospheric physicists have the defintion wrong. These claims are ridiculous. You are just dodging the question yet again. We all know why you wont asnwer the question of how to define an atmospheric layer, because there is no deifniton you can give that is logically consistent and allows you to conclude there are seven.

Response: Your inability to comprehend simple english is laughable. Your whole analogy of buildings is pointless. No one said that a building floor is the same as a building. That was perhaps the most absurd strawman ever written. Then your reduntancy to ask the same question is more evidence to your denial. Plus the fact that no where in the post can are you refuting anything, but rather setting up a strawman, and debating him. Clearly, we can see where the ridiculousness is coming from.

 

[skydivephil]

I asked you to define atmospheric layers so we could agree on terms to count them. Your response to this question was (in your own words) :
"As for your question, it's been answered twice already. You can refer to post 150."

So lets look at post 150, here again your own words:
"And the definition of atmosphere is a gaseous mass surrounding a celestial body."
Note how you didn't define the layers of the atmosphere, you defined the atmosphere itself. This is exactly analogous to confusing the layers of a building i.e its floors to the building itself. Unless we agree upon the definition of what a building floor is, we can't determine how many floors it has. Thats why we need to define what a layer is and your definition in the case we are interested in, the atmosphere is:
"And the definition of atmosphere is a gaseous mass surrounding a celestial body."
Sorry but that ins't a definition of layers.
I have defined what I mean by layer (the change in the correlation between temeperture and altitude) and I've shown that professional working in the field of atmospheric physics agrees with me. That definition of the atmosphere gives us 5 layers. That is why the Qur'an is refuted. Another reason why the Qur'an is refuted is that even if we agreed with list of layers, none of them have any stars in them as the Qur'an claims they do. that again is why the Qur'an is refuted.