75 Theses ~ Science Against Evolution

[Sapiens]

Iron meteorites were a major and well know early source of iron.

 

[Polymath257]

I can only speak for Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. He was told Iron was sent from outer space, the Universe came from a singularity and is expanding, and would eventually lead to the Big Crunch. When did humans discover these facts? Within the last 100 years, yet the book he received 1,400 years ago mentions all of these facts, and hundreds of others.

Yes, it is possible to twist the writings to make them look like they say things that we have only recently discovered. But the original intent was clearly otherwise.

What tools do you have to examine the Supernatural?

Precisely the point! If there are not tools, and no tools even in theory, that can detect the 'supernatural', in what sense does it even exist?

 

[12jtartar]

I've just come across this creationist website ...it looks very basic so may be old and abandoned but it is useful to help understand the mind of a creationist.

Science Against Evolution Official Home Page

One of the pages ....
Seventy-five Theses
.....is their 75 Theses "We hold these truths to be undeniable."

1. Initially, the Earth was a lifeless planet.
2. There is life on Earth now.
3. At some time in the past, life either originated on Earth, or came to Earth from outer space.
4. Regardless of where or when life originated, it had to originate sometime, somewhere, somehow.
5. Life either originated by purely natural processes, or else some supernatural element must have been involved.
6. Science, as defined by the American public school system, excludes supernatural explanations.
7. Science depends upon the “Scientific Method” for determining truth.
8. The Scientific Method involves testing hypotheses using repeatable experiments.
9. If there is a scientific explanation for the origin of life, it must depend entirely on natural, repeatable processes.
10. If life originated by a natural process under certain specific conditions, it should be possible to create life again under the same conditions.
11. For more than 50 years scientists have tried to find conditions that produce life, without success.
12. Fifty years of failed attempts to create life have raised more questions than answers about how life could have originated naturally.
13. Living things have been observed to die from natural processes, which can be repeated in a laboratory.
14. Life has never been observed to originate through any natural process.
15. “Abiogenesis” is the belief that life can originate from non-living substances through purely natural processes.
16. The theory of evolution depends upon abiogenesis as the starting point.
17. If the theory of abiogenesis is false, then the theory of evolution is false.
18. The American public school system teaches that somehow the first living cell formed naturally and reproduced.
19. There is no known way in which the first living cell could have formed naturally.
20. The first living cell would have needed some mechanism for metabolism.
21. There is no known natural process by which metabolism could originate in a lifeless cell.
22. The first living cell would have to grow and reproduce for life to continue past the first cell’s death.
23. Growth and reproduction require cell division.
24. Cell division is a complex process.
25. There is no known natural process by which cell division could originate by chance.
26. According to the theory of evolution, single-celled life forms evolved into multi-cellular life forms.
27. Multi-cellular life forms consist of an assembly of cells that have different functions.
28. There is no scientific explanation for how a single cell could or would naturally change function.
29. Single-celled organisms have a membrane which allows the cell to exchange some substances (“nutrients” and “waste”, for lack of better terms) with the environment.
30. Not all cells in larger multi-cellular organisms are in contact with the external environment.
31. Larger multi-cellular organisms need some method for the interior cells to exchange nutrients and waste with the external environment.
32. Very large multi-cellular animals require a complex system (typically including teeth, saliva, throat, stomach, and intestines) for absorbing nutrients from the environment.
33. Very large multi-cellular animals require a complex system (typically including lungs, intestines, heart, arteries, and veins) for distributing nutrients and oxygen to interior cells.
34. Very large multi-cellular animals require a complex system (typically including lungs, heart, arteries, veins, kidneys, and bladder) for removing waste from interior cells.
35. There is no satisfactory explanation how complex systems such as these could have originated by any natural process.
36. According to the theory of evolution, an invertebrate life-form evolved into the first vertebrate life-form.
37. Vertebrates have, by definition, a spine containing a nervous system.
38. The nervous system detects stimuli and reacts to them.
39. There is no satisfactory explanation for how the simplest nervous system could have originated by any natural process.
40. According to the theory of evolution, some of the first vertebrates were fish, which have eyes and a brain connected by a nervous system.
41. There is no satisfactory explanation how optical elements (typically including a lens, an iris and light sensors) could have assembled themselves by any natural process.
42. There is no satisfactory explanation how image processing algorithms could have originated in a fish brain by any natural process.
43. If the theory of evolution is true, then every characteristic of every living thing must be the result of a random mutation.
44. Mutations have been observed that increase or decrease the size of some portion (or portions) of a living organism.
45. Mutations have been observed that change the shape of a living organism.
46. Mutations have been observed that duplicate existing features (cows with two heads, flies with extra wings, etc.).
47. No mutation has ever been observed that provides a new function (sight, hearing, smell, lactation, etc.) in a living organism that did not previously have that function.
48. Cross-breeding and genetic engineering can transfer existing functionality from one living organism to another.
49. Cross-breeding cannot explain the origin of any new functionality in the first place.
50. Artificial selection enhances desired characteristics by removing genetic traits that inhibit the desired characteristics.
51. Artificial selection is more efficient than natural selection.
52. There are limits to the amount of change that can be produced by artificial selection.
53. Mutation and artificial selection have not been demonstrated to be sufficient to bring about new life forms from existing ones.
54. Similarity of features is not definite proof of common ancestry.
55. Similarity of features is often observed in objects designed by man.
56. The fact that one individual was born later than another individual died is not proof that the later individual is a biological descendant of the earlier one, especially if they are of different species.
57. Many different human evolutionary trees have been proposed.
58. There is disagreement about hominid lineage because the “evidence” is meager and highly speculative.
59. Darwin was correct when he said, “Any variation which is not inherited is unimportant for us.” 2
60. Acquired characteristics are not inherited because they do not cause any change in the DNA.
61. Explanations for how apelike creatures evolved into humans are fanciful speculations without experimental confirmation.
62. There is no evidence to suggest that offspring of animals that eat cooked food are smarter than offspring of the same species that eat raw food.
63. There is no evidence to suggest that mental exercises performed by parents will increase the brain size of their children.
64. There is no evidence that if apelike creatures sometimes stand upright to see over tall grasses, it will increase the brain size of their children.
65. There is no evidence that if apelike creatures sometimes stand upright to see over tall grasses, it will make it easier for their children to stand upright.
66. Sedimentary layers are formed in modern times by such things as floods, mudslides, and sandstorms.
67. The fossils in sedimentary layers formed in modern times contain the kinds of things living in that location.
68. The concept of geologic ages is based upon the evolutionary assumption that the kinds of fossils buried in sedimentary layers are determined by time rather than location.
69. All sedimentary layers formed in modern times are of the same geologic age, despite the fact that they contain different kinds of fossils.
70. Radiometric dating depends upon assumptions that cannot be verified about the initial concentrations of elements.
71. Radiometric dating of rocks brought back from the Moon is not a reliable method of determining the age of the Earth.
72. “Dark matter” and “dark energy” were postulated to explain why astronomical measurements don’t match predictions of the Big Bang theory.
73. When measurements don’t agree with theoretical predictions, it is generally because the theory was wrong.
74. “We didn’t see it happen, we can’t make it happen again, and we don’t know how it could possibly have happened, but it must have happened somehow!” is never a satisfactory scientific explanation.
75. Public schools should not teach any fanciful speculation that is inconsistent with experimentally verified laws as if it were true.

Perhaps we should got through these and comment on them - creationists please pile in too.

Altfish,
Some of the things are really basic, and are truths, but most is dereism, written by a superficialist, or a gobemouche, but more than likely a person who, to the Holy Scriptures is Terra Incognita.
The term evolution is a Blasphemy to The Almighty God, Jehovah, who created athe Heavens, the earth and all the things in it, Acts 17:34-31, Romans 1:16-25.
At Genesis is stated a law that cannot be broken;everything living will reproduce only after it’s own kind, Genesis 1:11,12,21,24,25. This Law of God is in science, called , Prestabilism, and cannot be broken. Therefore there is no evolution from one kind to a higher Kind. There is much changes that can take place within a Kind, which is called Ontogenetics. No matter how many changes they still remain the same kind.
I would like to ask you one question? How can you believe in something of which there is absolutely No proof, the teachers of which go against the most basic of natural laws to start the pseudo science theory of evolution. The Law of all explosions, says, explosions cause chaos, the larger the explosion, the GREATER the Chaos. But you believe that the supposed greatest explosion in all history caused harmony, and the greatest ORDER, which is what Cosmos means. Impossible!!!
When people look at the natural universe, everything we see is a miracle, trees, clouds, water, sky. Man with all his genius cannot make a single one of these things, but still he believes that all the huge amounts of DNA written within the cells was written by unknowing Mother Nature.
A mathematician figured what the chances that the world and everything we can see happened by chance. The figure he came up with was; ONE to All the Atoms in the known universe. The number that makes anything totally impossible is ONE to 40,000.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

At Genesis is stated a law that cannot be broken;everything living will reproduce only after it’s own kind, Genesis 1:11,12,21,24,25. This Law of God is in science, called , Prestabilism, and cannot be broken. Therefore there is no evolution from one kind to a higher Kind. There is much changes that can take place within a Kind, which is called Ontogenetics. No matter how many changes they still remain the same kind.

Define "kind", because - depending on the definition - evolution doesn't even violate this rule. All living things reproduce variations of what they are, and these variations create sub-groups within that category (or "kind"). For example, "dogs" are a sub-category" of grey wolf, grey wolves are a sub-category of canine, and so on. Hence, it is perfectly possible for all life to share a common ancestor in early eukaryotes - because all living things are eukaryotes. Nothing has to produce "something other than what it is" in order for evolution to occur.

I would like to ask you one question? How can you believe in something of which there is absolutely No proof, the teachers of which go against the most basic of natural laws to start the pseudo science theory of evolution. The Law of all explosions, says, explosions cause chaos, the larger the explosion, the GREATER the Chaos. But you believe that the supposed greatest explosion in all history caused harmony, and the greatest ORDER, which is what Cosmos means. Impossible!!!

The big bang wasn't a literal explosion, it was an expansion. Also, I'm fairly certain that if you blew up a stick of dynamite and waited around for hundreds of years, the matter left over from the explosion would eventually find other forms and naturally order itself in some other way, so even your inaccurate analogy doesn't work.

When people look at the natural universe, everything we see is a miracle, trees, clouds, water, sky. Man with all his genius cannot make a single one of these things, but still he believes that all the huge amounts of DNA written within the cells was written by unknowing Mother Nature.

That's called an argument from ignorance.

A mathematician figured what the chances that the world and everything we can see happened by chance. The figure he came up with was; ONE to All the Atoms in the known universe. The number that makes anything totally impossible is ONE to 40,000.

Chance doesn't govern the behavior or formation of states or properties - physical laws do. So any equation that only factors in "chance" is meaningless. It is trivial to demonstrate mathematically that if you drop an egg, the odds of it landing by chance on any individual square inch of the earth's surface is one against billions, and yet this doesn't mean that if you drop an egg you just witnessed a miraculous event - because the fall of the egg isn't determined by "chance", it is determined by the position you dropped it in, the direction of the fall and the force of gravity acting upon it.

Honestly, I'm getting sick and tired of this bogus probability calculation being brought up every time...

 

[Polymath257]

Altfish,
Some of the things are really basic, and are truths, but most is dereism, written by a superficialist, or a gobemouche, but more than likely a person who, to the Holy Scriptures is Terra Incognita.
The term evolution is a Blasphemy to The Almighty God, Jehovah, who created athe Heavens, the earth and all the things in it, Acts 17:34-31, Romans 1:16-25.

So much the worse for Jehovah.

At Genesis is stated a law that cannot be broken;everything living will reproduce only after it’s own kind, Genesis 1:11,12,21,24,25. This Law of God is in science, called , Prestabilism, and cannot be broken. Therefore there is no evolution from one kind to a higher Kind. There is much changes that can take place within a Kind, which is called Ontogenetics. No matter how many changes they still remain the same kind.

Yes, we are and will remain vertebrates. We are and will remain mammals. We are and will remain primates. We are and will remain great apes. But, while staying in the same 'kind', there is also diversification. That is why there is a *tree* of life: populations change and split.

I would like to ask you one question? How can you believe in something of which there is absolutely No proof, the teachers of which go against the most basic of natural laws to start the pseudo science theory of evolution. The Law of all explosions, says, explosions cause chaos, the larger the explosion, the GREATER the Chaos. But you believe that the supposed greatest explosion in all history caused harmony, and the greatest ORDER, which is what Cosmos means. Impossible!!!

This only shows that you don't understand what the Big Bang theory says. What is an explosion? It is a movement of matter through space because of high pressure generated the source. This is NOT what happens in the Big Bang! There is no 'outside of the expansion'. There is no 'center' to the expansion. it is NOT an explosion!

When people look at the natural universe, everything we see is a miracle, trees, clouds, water, sky.

Well, I do see trees, clouds, and sky. Clouds are water vapor. The sky is mostly an illusion, produced by scattering of light in our atmosphere. Trees are living things. I see no 'miracles'. Can you show me one and explain why it is a miracle?

Man with all his genius cannot make a single one of these things, but still he believes that all the huge amounts of DNA written within the cells was written by unknowing Mother Nature.

We can produce clouds, actually. As for the large amounts of DNA, we actually have evidence for how it accumulated over time.

A mathematician figured what the chances that the world and everything we can see happened by chance. The figure he came up with was; ONE to All the Atoms in the known universe. The number that makes anything totally impossible is ONE to 40,000.

No, a *physicist* made an incredibly poor calculation based on independence of items we know are not independent and got an unreasonably small probability when we know from other techniques that much higher probabilities are valid in the real world. Hoyle's calculation was NOT a valid one and I can go into details if you want.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I can only speak for Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. He was told Iron was sent from outer space, the Universe came from a singularity and is expanding, and would eventually lead to the Big Crunch. When did humans discover these facts? Within the last 100 years, yet the book he received 1,400 years ago mentions all of these facts, and hundreds of others.

If all these "facts" were so plainly and clearly stated in your holy book, don't you think humankind would have known them a lot sooner than we did? Or is it that they aren't really stated very plainly and you're retrofitting what we've learned about science over the last 1400 years to fit your holy texts?

There also appears to be some cherrypicking going on here where you're ignoring the bits your holy texts got wrong and instead concentrating on the bits that you think are corroborated by the findings of modern day science.

What tools do you have to examine the Supernatural?

You're the one claiming the supernatural exists. You tell me.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Yes, it is possible to twist the writings to make them look like they say things that we have only recently discovered. But the original intent was clearly otherwise.

Iron:

"Its abundance in rocky planets like Earth is due to its abundant production by fusion in high-mass stars, where it is the last element to be produced with release of energy before the violent collapse of a supernova, which scatters the iron into space."

Iron - Wikipedia

We have already sent Our messengers with clear evidences and sent down with them the Scripture and the balance that the people may maintain [their affairs] in justice. And We sent down iron, wherein is great military might and benefits for the people, and so that Allah may make evident those who support Him and His messengers unseen. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might. Qur'an 57:25

Here's the Arabic from the 7th Century:

لَقَدۡ أَرۡسَلۡنَا رُسُلَنَا بِٱلۡبَيِّنَـٰتِ وَأَنزَلۡنَا مَعَهُمُ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ وَٱلۡمِيزَانَ لِيَقُومَ ٱلنَّاسُ بِٱلۡقِسۡطِ‌ۖ وَأَنزَلۡنَا ٱلۡحَدِيدَ فِيهِ بَأۡسٌ۬ شَدِيدٌ۬ وَمَنَـٰفِعُ لِلنَّاسِ وَلِيَعۡلَمَ ٱللَّهُ مَن يَنصُرُهُ ۥ وَرُسُلَهُ ۥ بِٱلۡغَيۡبِ‌ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ قَوِىٌّ عَزِيزٌ۬

Let me know how that's been twisted before we move on to the 2nd example.

Precisely the point! If there are not tools, and no tools even in theory, that can detect the 'supernatural', in what sense does it even exist?

So when we come to examples of things that point to a supernatural cause, we're simply at a loss to even begin to explain them:

From a Science Journal http://www.resuscitationjournal.com

Resuscitation is a monthly international and interdisciplinary medical journal. The papers published deal with the aetiology, pathophysiology and prevention of cardiac arrest, resuscitation training, clinical resuscitation, and experimental resuscitation research.

"Among 2060 CA (Cardiac Arrest) events, 140 survivors completed stage 1 interviews, while 101 of 140 patients completed stage 2 interviews. 46% had memories with 7 major cognitive themes: fear; animals/plants; bright light; violence/persecution; deja-vu; family; recalling events post-CA and 9% had NDEs, while 2% described awareness with explicit recall of ‘seeing’ and ‘hearing’ actual events related to their resuscitation. One had a verifiable period of conscious awareness during which time cerebral function was not expected.

How can a dead person see? How are they able to recall name tags, jewellery and other features of people in the room, who they did not meet before?

Wired.com conducted a interview with a leading medical researcher in this field, Sam Parnia who practices resuscitation medicine:

https://www.wired.com/2013/04/consciousness-after-death/

Wired: This seems to verge on supernatural explanations of consciousness.

Parnia: Throughout history, we try to explain things the best we can with the tools of science. But most open-minded and objective scientists recognize that we have limitations.

Bottom line: Evidence of the supernatural exists, but we lack the tools to examine it. Of course we are ALL able to verify the supernatural afterlife once we're in a position to push up daisies.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The term evolution is a Blasphemy to The Almighty God, Jehovah, who created athe Heavens, the earth and all the things in it, Acts 17:34-31, Romans 1:16-25.

As is rational, evidence-based thinking in general, apparently. Also, accusations of blasphemy hold zero weight with people who don't hold to your religious creed; and if you need to deploy the 'blasphemy!' to start with then you have no intelligent arguments to muster.

 

[Polymath257]

Iron:

"Its abundance in rocky planets like Earth is due to its abundant production by fusion in high-mass stars, where it is the last element to be produced with release of energy before the violent collapse of a supernova, which scatters the iron into space."

Iron - Wikipedia

We have already sent Our messengers with clear evidences and sent down with them the Scripture and the balance that the people may maintain [their affairs] in justice. And We sent down iron, wherein is great military might and benefits for the people, and so that Allah may make evident those who support Him and His messengers unseen. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might. Qur'an 57:25

Here's the Arabic from the 7th Century:

لَقَدۡ أَرۡسَلۡنَا رُسُلَنَا بِٱلۡبَيِّنَـٰتِ وَأَنزَلۡنَا مَعَهُمُ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ وَٱلۡمِيزَانَ لِيَقُومَ ٱلنَّاسُ بِٱلۡقِسۡطِ‌ۖ وَأَنزَلۡنَا ٱلۡحَدِيدَ فِيهِ بَأۡسٌ۬ شَدِيدٌ۬ وَمَنَـٰفِعُ لِلنَّاسِ وَلِيَعۡلَمَ ٱللَّهُ مَن يَنصُرُهُ ۥ وَرُسُلَهُ ۥ بِٱلۡغَيۡبِ‌ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ قَوِىٌّ عَزِيزٌ۬

Let me know how that's been twisted before we move on to the 2nd example.

Well, the original is completely ambiguous for one. WHERE was it sent down from? You interpret as being from the skies. A much more reasonable interpretation, given the time, is that it is down from the mountains, where the ore was extracted before being forged into weapons. So, yes, that is a HUGE twist.

So when we come to examples of things that point to a supernatural cause, we're simply at a loss to even begin to explain them:

From a Science Journal http://www.resuscitationjournal.com

Resuscitation is a monthly international and interdisciplinary medical journal. The papers published deal with the aetiology, pathophysiology and prevention of cardiac arrest, resuscitation training, clinical resuscitation, and experimental resuscitation research.

"Among 2060 CA (Cardiac Arrest) events, 140 survivors completed stage 1 interviews, while 101 of 140 patients completed stage 2 interviews. 46% had memories with 7 major cognitive themes: fear; animals/plants; bright light; violence/persecution; deja-vu; family; recalling events post-CA and 9% had NDEs, while 2% described awareness with explicit recall of ‘seeing’ and ‘hearing’ actual events related to their resuscitation. One had a verifiable period of conscious awareness during which time cerebral function was not expected.

How can a dead person see? How are they able to recall name tags, jewellery and other features of people in the room, who they did not meet before?

Wired.com conducted a interview with a leading medical researcher in this field, Sam Parnia who practices resuscitation medicine:

https://www.wired.com/2013/04/consciousness-after-death/

Wired: This seems to verge on supernatural explanations of consciousness.

Parnia: Throughout history, we try to explain things the best we can with the tools of science. But most open-minded and objective scientists recognize that we have limitations.

Bottom line: Evidence of the supernatural exists, but we lack the tools to examine it. Of course we are ALL able to verify the supernatural afterlife once we're in a position to push up daisies.

So they had memories from their resuscitation. OK. So their consciousness was not completely gone. Sounds good so far.

Some had memories during a time when cerebral function was not expected. BUT WAS IT PRESENT? If so, the whole example goes out the window.

And here is what we can say: we understand very little about how the brain functions during death. The reason is that the doctors are typically busy trying to save the patient at that time, so very few studies have been done. From what you presented, there is brain functioning during times when people don't expect it.

Hardly a case for the supernatural.

 

[Muslim-UK]

If all these "facts" were so plainly and clearly stated in your holy book, don't you think humankind would have known them a lot sooner than we did? Or is it that they aren't really stated very plainly and you're retrofitting what we've learned about science over the last 1400 years to fit your holy texts?

How do you verify things without powerful telescopes and microscopes?

There also appears to be some cherrypicking going on here where you're ignoring the bits your holy texts got wrong and instead concentrating on the bits that you think are corroborated by the findings of modern day science.

What does Qur'an get wrong? Post the original Arabic and several translations of the verse, and let's see. Or post the verse and we can cross check with al-Fatihah 1:1 which has over 50 translations.

 

[Polymath257]

How do you verify things without powerful telescopes and microscopes?

If only revelation included how to build those.....

What does Qur'an get wrong? Post the original Arabic and several translations of the verse, and let's see. Or post the verse and we can cross check with al-Fatihah 1:1 which has over 50 translations.

The main problems in the Islamic world aren't which translation to use. It's whether to re-open the gates of ijtihad and allow for more freedom of personal investigation. It is also whether you allow people to decide they don't believe in your myth and still continue to live normal lives.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Well, the original is completely ambiguous for one. WHERE was it sent down from? You interpret as being from the skies. A much more reasonable interpretation, given the time, is that it is down from the mountains, where the ore was extracted before being forged into weapons. So, yes, that is a HUGE twist.

so the verse should say we sent UP Iron if it was dug up or we uncovered. It is WE who sent DOWN Iron. Where does GOD say He is in the Qur'an; ABOVE His Creation, outside of Time and Space as we understand the terms.

So they had memories from their resuscitation. OK. So their consciousness was not completely gone. Sounds good so far.

Some had memories during a time when cerebral function was not expected. BUT WAS IT PRESENT? If so, the whole example goes out the window.

And here is what we can say: we understand very little about how the brain functions during death. The reason is that the doctors are typically busy trying to save the patient at that time, so very few studies have been done. From what you presented, there is brain functioning during times when people don't expect it.

Hardly a case for the supernatural.

Their eyes were closed. They were dead, the brain shuts down with 10 mins of blood ceasing to enter it, that's 10 mins after a heart attack. Yet we have cases of people describing people coming in and out of the operating theatre, people they never met. Patients have described what they were wearing, down to jewellery type, name tags etc.

More from the wired article:

Wired: You also study near-death experiences, but you have a different term for it: After-death experience.

Parnia: I decided that we should study what people have experienced when they’ve gone beyond cardiac arrest. I found that 10 percent of patients who survived cardiac arrests report these incredible accounts of seeing things.

When I looked at the cardiac arrest literature, it became clear that it’s after the heart stops and blood flow into the brain ceases. There’s no blood flow into the brain, no activity, about 10 seconds after the heart stops. When doctors start to do CPR, they still can’t get enough blood into the brain. It remains flatlined. That’s the physiology of people who’ve died or are receiving CPR.

Not just my study, but four others, all demonstrated the same thing: People have memories and recollections. Combined with anecdotal reports from all over the world, from people who see things accurately and remember them, it suggests this needs to be studied in more detail.

Yes, I agree most Doctors are only concerned with keeping someone alive, or trying to bring them back to life, however as the wired article shows, there are medical Professionals like Sam Parnia, who have studied NDE's in their line of work, experts in the resuscitation of patients and their findings point to something unexplained, something Supernatural.

 

[Polymath257]

so the verse should say we sent UP Iron if it was dug up or we uncovered. It is WE who sent DOWN Iron. Where does GOD say He is in the Qur'an; ABOVE His Creation, outside of Time and Space as we understand the terms.

Down from the mountains. You know, where the ore is located.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Down from the mountains. You know, where the ore is located.

It's clear the origin is above and beyond our comprehension. 'Sent down' not provided, unearthed etc

This is how early Scholars understood it, and even in English, you can go to the following link and type in 'Sent Down' and every verse with those words will be listed, look through the list and see every time GOD mentions the words 'Sent Down' it is clearly from the sky above and often outside of this World: Quran Search; Submission (Islam)

Some examples:

[2:57] We shaded you with clouds (in Sinai), and sent down to you manna and quails: "Eat from the good things we provided for you."

[2:59] But the wicked among them carried out commands other than the commands given to them. Consequently, we sent down upon the transgressors condemnation from the sky, due to their wickedness.

[2:91] When they are told, "You shall believe in these revelations of GOD," they say, "We believe only in what was sent down to us." Thus, they disbelieve in subsequent revelations, even if it is the truth from their Lord, and even though it confirms what they have! Say, "Why then did you kill GOD's prophets, if you were believers?"

[2:99] We have sent down to you such clear revelations, and only the wicked will reject them.

[2:102] They pursued what the devils taught concerning Solomon's kingdom. Solomon, however, was not a disbeliever, but the devils were disbelievers. They taught the people sorcery, and that which was sent down through the two angels of Babel, Haroot and Maroot.

[3:3] He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel

Incidentally, Muslims consider The Qur'an to be a book of signs, and the verse you are contesting is found in the Middle of the Qur'an in Chapter 57 which is named IRON. It's also a fact, the majority of the Earth's Iron is contained within the core, i.e the Middle of the Earth.

We sent our messengers supported by clear proofs, and we sent down to them the scripture and the law, that the people may uphold justice. And we sent down the iron, wherein there is strength, and many benefits for the people. All this in order for GOD to distinguish those who would support Him and His messengers, on faith. GOD is Powerful, Almighty. 57:25

Know that this worldly life is no more than play and games, and boasting among you, and hoarding of money and children. It is like abundant rain that produces plants and pleases the disbelievers. But then the plants turn into useless hay, and are blown away by the wind. In the Hereafter there is either severe retribution, or forgiveness from GOD and approval. This worldly life is no more than a temporary illusion. Qur'an 57:20

 

[Polymath257]

It's clear the origin is above and beyond our comprehension. 'Sent down' not provided, unearthed etc

This is how early Scholars understood it, and even in English, you can go to the following link and type in 'Sent Down' and every verse with those words will be listed, look through the list and see every time GOD mentions the words 'Sent Down' it is clearly from the sky above and often outside of this World: Quran Search; Submission (Islam)

Some examples:

[2:57] We shaded you with clouds (in Sinai), and sent down to you manna and quails: "Eat from the good things we provided for you."

[2:59] But the wicked among them carried out commands other than the commands given to them. Consequently, we sent down upon the transgressors condemnation from the sky, due to their wickedness.

[2:91] When they are told, "You shall believe in these revelations of GOD," they say, "We believe only in what was sent down to us." Thus, they disbelieve in subsequent revelations, even if it is the truth from their Lord, and even though it confirms what they have! Say, "Why then did you kill GOD's prophets, if you were believers?"

[2:99] We have sent down to you such clear revelations, and only the wicked will reject them.

[2:102] They pursued what the devils taught concerning Solomon's kingdom. Solomon, however, was not a disbeliever, but the devils were disbelievers. They taught the people sorcery, and that which was sent down through the two angels of Babel, Haroot and Maroot.

[3:3] He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel

Incidentally, Muslims consider The Qur'an to be a book of signs, and the verse you are contesting is found in the Middle of the Qur'an in Chapter 57 which is named IRON. It's also a fact, the majority of the Earth's Iron is contained within the core, i.e the Middle of the Earth.

We sent our messengers supported by clear proofs, and we sent down to them the scripture and the law, that the people may uphold justice. And we sent down the iron, wherein there is strength, and many benefits for the people. All this in order for GOD to distinguish those who would support Him and His messengers, on faith. GOD is Powerful, Almighty. 57:25

Know that this worldly life is no more than play and games, and boasting among you, and hoarding of money and children. It is like abundant rain that produces plants and pleases the disbelievers. But then the plants turn into useless hay, and are blown away by the wind. In the Hereafter there is either severe retribution, or forgiveness from GOD and approval. This worldly life is no more than a temporary illusion. Qur'an 57:20

Sorry, but I am not particularly interested in how you justify your myths to yourself.

In what sense is this 'sent down'? Why 'down'? Up is a direction that depends on where you stand on Earth. What is up for the US is down for Australia. What is up for the north pole is down for the south pole.

So the whole concept of being 'sent down' is based on a faulty cosmology. There is no heaven 'above' us: only stars, planets, other galaxies, etc. That the *original* view was of a heaven 'above' just shows how wrong the whole mythology is.

 

[SkepticThinker]

How do you verify things without powerful telescopes and microscopes?

Will those tools help us discover the supernatural that you claim exists? I'm willing to use whatever works.

Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the earth long before the Qur'an was written. He didn't require powerful telescopes and microscopes to do so.
The point, though really, is that these vague writings you point to in your holy books don't seem to have been specific enough to have helped humankind progress and develop our knowledge base in the areas you claim. It took the scientific method to get us there, many hundreds of years later. Now you look back at the your holy texts proclaiming that they had it right all along as you pick and choose the bits you think fit with our current scientific knowledge. We could do that with Nostradamus' writings too, but that doesn't make him a prophet. It just makes his claims vague enough that they can be twisted to describe any number of events.

What does Qur'an get wrong? Post the original Arabic and several translations of the verse, and let's see. Or post the verse and we can cross check with al-Fatihah 1:1 which has over 50 translations.

Lots of things. Just as anything written that long ago is bound to contain errors pertaining to current scientific knowledge.


VERSE 25:53

YUSUFALI: It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, andthe other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier be

tween them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.PICKTHAL: And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one

palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set abar and a forbidding ban between them.SHAKIR: And He it is Who has made two seas to flow freely, the one sweet that subdues thirst by itssweetness, and the other salt that burns by its saltness; and between the two He has made a barrier andinviolable obstruction

 

[SkepticThinker]

so the verse should say we sent UP Iron if it was dug up or we uncovered. It is WE who sent DOWN Iron. Where does GOD say He is in the Qur'an; ABOVE His Creation, outside of Time and Space as we understand the terms.

Their eyes were closed. They were dead, the brain shuts down with 10 mins of blood ceasing to enter it, that's 10 mins after a heart attack. Yet we have cases of people describing people coming in and out of the operating theatre, people they never met. Patients have described what they were wearing, down to jewellery type, name tags etc.

More from the wired article:

Wired: You also study near-death experiences, but you have a different term for it: After-death experience.

Parnia: I decided that we should study what people have experienced when they’ve gone beyond cardiac arrest. I found that 10 percent of patients who survived cardiac arrests report these incredible accounts of seeing things.

When I looked at the cardiac arrest literature, it became clear that it’s after the heart stops and blood flow into the brain ceases. There’s no blood flow into the brain, no activity, about 10 seconds after the heart stops. When doctors start to do CPR, they still can’t get enough blood into the brain. It remains flatlined. That’s the physiology of people who’ve died or are receiving CPR.

Not just my study, but four others, all demonstrated the same thing: People have memories and recollections. Combined with anecdotal reports from all over the world, from people who see things accurately and remember them, it suggests this needs to be studied in more detail.

Yes, I agree most Doctors are only concerned with keeping someone alive, or trying to bring them back to life, however as the wired article shows, there are medical Professionals like Sam Parnia, who have studied NDE's in their line of work, experts in the resuscitation of patients and their findings point to something unexplained, something Supernatural.

What makes this supernatural?

 

[Muslim-UK]

Sorry, but I am not particularly interested in how you justify your myths to yourself.

In what sense is this 'sent down'? Why 'down'? Up is a direction that depends on where you stand on Earth. What is up for the US is down for Australia. What is up for the north pole is down for the south pole.

So the whole concept of being 'sent down' is based on a faulty cosmology. There is no heaven 'above' us: only stars, planets, other galaxies, etc. That the *original* view was of a heaven 'above' just shows how wrong the whole mythology is.

so by your definition there's no error in pointing down to the night sky. No harm in saying it's raining 'up' a lot today. Its just a matter of perspective. Ok I guess

 

[Polymath257]

so by your definition there's no error in pointing down to the night sky. No harm in saying it's raining 'up' a lot today. Its just a matter of perspective. Ok I guess

Yes, 'up' and 'down' are defined via the force of gravity. They are local only and not global directions. The rain falling on the other side of the world would be falling in the 'up' direction for you.

But you failed to respond to the specific question of how 'up' and 'down' are defined in your religious texts. If they are the ordinary 'up' and 'down', then they have no relation to a deity or anything spiritual. If they are NOT the usual 'up' and 'down', then how are they defined? gravity has no relevance for spiritual things, right?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

C'mon, Threepwood! Get with it! You've heard of "antibiotic-resistant bacteria". The bacteria are evolving to resist antibiotics.... apparently they're growing little arms and fists, punching the antibiotics....after a few more million mutations, they'll be running away on little legs, morphing into Arthropoda.

ha yes, they just need more time!?