9% Say they intentionally have not paid back student loans

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Did you miss the part where I mentioned one of them still lives with their parents and the other lives in a small apartment with their partner?

Ok, then why can't they pay back their loans? I am advocating for making a reasonable plan with them to help pay them back, but to just say I will never pay them back is immoral in my opinion.

 

[LuisDantas]

That is how it is in here in Brazil, and I would be genuinely amazed if it was any different in the US, given the rampant capitalism.
Curiously, the most well-known good quality private university in Brazil is non-profit, but it is among the most expensive universities in this country... I wonder how being non-profit benefits anyone on this case though ...

Why are you assuming só much similarity?

 

[Shaul]

That you think my friends are liars without asking clarifying question says more about you than it does about them.

Actually it says more about you. That you would stated their situation in absolutes is a clear distortion of fact.

 

[Koldo]

Why are you assuming só much similarity?

Because I expect Capitalism in the US.

 

[Quintessence]

Just to clarify: Do you mean that students have to pay to study at public universities?

Yes, and that amount students must pay to attend public universities been rising. That's a direct consequence of a decline of state/federal support combined with increased operating costs. So to try and maintain the same level of services, additional revenue has to come from somewhere. A lot of it comes from increasing student tuition dollars and specifically trying to recruit international and out-of-state students who pay more tuition. And universities now having to compete against each other - and even within the same university across departments and units - for these dollars.

If so, that's quite different from what we have here. Public universities here in Brazil are among the best universities, and whoever manages to study in them doesn't have to pay a cent. It is completely free of charge. There is, however, a huge problem. The number of people interested in pursuing a degree has increased exponentially, but the number of vacancies made available every year has not. It all comes down to scoring high in an yearly admission exam, roughly equivalent to the SAT (except for affirmative action, nothing else is taken into consideration... GPA, for example, is absolutely irrelevant). If, however, the student doesn't manage to join a public university, there are many private universities, with highly varying prices, willing to admit new students, with nearly limitless vacancies, generally with no entry barrier other than being able to afford them.

Since the government didn't want to substancially increase spending in public universities, and since private universities saw the opportunity to make a huge profit, about 15 years ago the government started promoting student loans at low rates for the poor. The number of students making using of this loan reached it's peak in 2014 with around 700.000 students. Ever since then, the number has decreased. If I could guess as to why, I am going to attribute it to the economic decline and the arrival of a cheaper alternative: education at a distance, which we refer to as EAD. EAD offers online lessons (generally at low quality) for a MUCH cheaper price (up to 10x cheaper, and I am not kidding) and the exact same graduation degree. EAD is not avaiable for every course though like law school and medical school.

Ugh. Sounds like you've got your own messes down there, too. There are political interests up here in the USA that want to privatize education at all levels. There are already some for-profit universities that do something similar attempting to exploit the problems with our public education system (and the loan system). It's a complex problem with no simple solution. I understand your earlier comment a bit better now, though, with this context.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What? If a person took out a loan they need to repay it. You cannot change the name and just say it was not a loan after the fact. I am dealing with the issue. They need to pay back what they borrowed.

Just responding to what you said.

I shouldn't.

Sounds like you have a broader issue with how government functions more than with student loans specifically.

So would mortgage forgiveness, credit card or any debt forgiveness.

Well, no. Not all debt forgiveness provides equal social benefit.

So what, they still borrowed the money and need to pay it back at the terms they agreed to.

With most loans with a private lender, when a customer can't meet the original terms of the loan, those terms can be modified: payments can be postponed, or the loan can be paid off over a longer period of time with lower payments, etc. In some cases, a lender may accept a proposal to have some of the loan amount forgiven to avoid their customer having to declare bankruptcy: better to get 50 cents on the dollar than fight with othet creditors to get pennies or nothing.

So we bail out everyone that is struggling to pay any loan?

Please don't put words in my mouth.

The thing to do is to help the repay the loan by changing payment plans so they can repay it.

A few paragraphs back, you said that they "need to pay it back at the terms they agreed to."

I guess I should be glad your stance is softening as you think more about the issue.

Huh?

Helping people with a burden now is not "unfair" to the people who had to struggle without help.

Someone with empathy says "paying off my student loans was a difficult burden; I want other people not to have to go through that," not "I want people to suffer the way I suffered."

 

[Quintessence]

Ok, then why can't they pay back their loans? I am advocating for making a reasonable plan with them to help pay them back, but to just say I will never pay them back is immoral in my opinion.

I'm not going to pretend to know all the particulars of each of their situations. My understanding is, because of the loan amount and the predatory nature of some of these loans, making minimum payments doesn't permit them to pay off the loan in a reasonable time frame. And by reasonable time frame, I mean before they retire at age 60-something. Both are working good, meaningful jobs and being productive citizens to society. Once upon a time, that was enough to both get by and pay off your loans. It isn't anymore, for a lot of folks.

 

[LuisDantas]

Because I expect Capitalism in the US.

There is. But it is a country far more different from Brazil than it is usually presumed among us.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

A few paragraphs back, you said that they "need to pay it back at the terms they agreed to."

I guess I should be glad your stance is softening as you think more about the issue.

No, my stance is the same. You need to pay back the loan at the terms agreed to but I am for reworking those terms if needed. That is not the same as forgiving the entire loan. Who is going to pay back the money?

Someone with empathy says "paying off my student loans was a difficult burden; I want other people not to have to go through that," not "I want people to suffer the way I suffered."

Has nothing to do with empathy, you said it was about social benefits. This can be said for ay loan, not just student loans.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I'm not going to pretend to know all the particulars of each of their situations. My understanding is, because of the loan amount and the predatory nature of some of these loans, making minimum payments doesn't permit them to pay off the loan in a reasonable time frame. And by reasonable time frame, I mean before they retire at age 60-something. Both are working good, meaningful jobs and being productive citizens to society. Once upon a time, that was enough to both get by and pay off your loans. It isn't anymore, for a lot of folks.

They made the decision to borrow the money. No one forced them to do so.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, my stance is the same. You need to pay back the loan at the terms agreed to but I am for reworking those terms if needed. That is not the same as forgiving the entire loan. Who is going to pay back the money?

Has nothing to do with empathy, you said it was about social benefits. This can be said for ay loan, not just student loans.

Lenders who aren't government controlled
will re-negotiate troubled loans. Surely
government could do the same, instead of
just waiving entire balances, even for those
who aren't in need at all.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Lenders who aren't government controlled
will re-negotiate troubled loans. Surely
government could do the same, instead of
just waiving entire balances, even for those
who aren't in need at all.

I am ok with that.

 

[Quintessence]

They made the decision to borrow the money. No one forced them to do so.

It's so nice that you would have been willing to personally give them all the money they would have needed - and didn't have - to finance their education. If only everyone was as generous and philanthropic as you! We should all emulate your desire to help the common good and our fellow citizens!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, my stance is the same. You need to pay back the loan at the terms agreed to but I am for reworking those terms if needed. That is not the same as forgiving the entire loan. Who is going to pay back the money?

For federal public loans, any forgiveness is paid out of federal general revenue, just like how most federal policy measures are paid for.

Has nothing to do with empathy, you said it was about social benefits. This can be said for ay loan, not just student loans.

Education improves a person's life outcomes in a way that, say, running up your credit card on consumer goods does not.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

It's so nice that you would have been willing to personally give them all the money they would have needed - and didn't have - to finance their education. If only everyone was as generous and philanthropic as you! We should all emulate your desire to help the common good and our fellow citizens!

Whatever. Higher education costs money, many figure out a way to pay for it if they want it just like anything else like homes, cars etc. It is not my responsibility to pay for anyone elses college. I was on my own at 17, I paid for my college education and I am currently paying for my kids college education because I planned for it and worked hard. I am not special, just a regular guy, if people want an college degree they can figure out how to pay for it and not demand others to pay for it after they took out the loans.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

For federal public loans, any forgiveness is paid out of federal general revenue, just like how most federal policy measures are paid for.

The taxpayer then. Why should they pay for it especially with the debt we are in. Show me it improves our society somehow.

Education improves a person's life outcomes in a way that, say, running up your credit card on consumer goods does not.

You may need to back up this claim. But why should I pay to improve someone else's life when they have the ability to do it themselves.? We have lost the idea of individual responsibility. Isn't that up to them to do? Why should it stop at education, certainly if someone paid my mortgage for me my life would be improved.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The taxpayer then. Why should they pay for it especially with the debt we are in. Show me it improves our society somehow.

We've established that there's all sorts of government spending you disagree with. Why do you think this is the issue that should be focused on?

You may need to back up this claim. But why should I pay to improve someone else's life when they have the ability to do it themselves.?

Because you will be on the hook for even more if they don't go to college.

Did you read the article I posted earlier, or at least my bullet-point summary? Spending money on post-secondary education:

• Increases the tax revenue from other people, so your share of government spending goes down.
• Reduces dependence on social supports, reducing costs for you.
• Reduces incarceration rates, again saving you money.

The question isn't whether you want to pay $1 to help send someone else to college or keep it in your pocket. The question is whether you want to pay $1 for other people's college or $3 for other people's imprisonment.

We have lost the idea of individual responsibility. Isn't that up to them to do?

So this is an ideology you're unwilling to let go of, no matter how many people it would benefit - including yourself?

Is your warped idea of "personal responsibility" so precious to you that you would rather personally pay more?

Why should it stop at education, certainly if someone paid my mortgage for me my life would be improved.

Hey - guess what already exists:

https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/coronavirus/assistance-for-state-local-and-tribal-governments/homeowner-assistance-fund

 

[Quintessence]

Whatever. Higher education costs money, many figure out a way to pay for it if they want it just like anything else like homes, cars etc. It is not my responsibility to pay for anyone elses college. I was on my own at 17, I paid for my college education and I am currently paying for my kids college education because I planned for it and worked hard. I am not special, just a regular guy, if people want an college degree they can figure out how to pay for it and not demand others to pay for it after they took out the loans.

Sure, screw the people and the betterment of human society, right? Who needs humans, anyway? Let them all go extinct!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sure, screw the people and the betterment of human society, right? Who needs humans, anyway? Let them all go extinct!

"How dare they plow the roads! If you can't shovel your way to work yourself, you don't deserve to have a job! You could have bought a snowmobile but you didn't; that's not my problem!

"Expecting other people to clear the highway for you? What happened to personal responsibility?!"

 

[Revoltingest]

Sure, screw the people and the betterment of human society, right? Who needs humans, anyway? Let them all go extinct!

Is waiving loans for those who could partially
or fully repay them really making society better?