A Call for Unity in America

[Shadow Wolf]

And we don't unify with some enemies, and we certainly don't commit the childish error of confusing 'unity' with 'peace.'

As I also said, when you live with each other--such as how people in America are living with each other--there is need for at least getting along. No, not everyone will, but they aren't worth our consideration or even worth hitting the brakes if their dogma gets in the way.

 

[Goddess Kit]

With such a political divide in this country, there can be no unity. One side prefers to suppress while the other side wants to help.

Can you guess which side is which?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Actually some of those "illegal immigrants" were people I got to know in college, who came here legally. And even if they did come illegally, forcing drugs, forcing sterilization, and separating parents and children is a heinous violation of rights amd everything American values stamd for.

The illegal immigrants don't need to come. Splitting up families is the same if you break the law and go to prison.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

No, I am not a registered Democrat. I voted for Biden because he has a good character, and that is how Baha'is choose a candidate.

As Baha'u'llah wrote "The light of a good character surpasseth the light of the sun and the radiance thereof."

“The third Taráz concerneth good character. A good character is, verily, the best mantle for men from God. With it He adorneth the temples of His loved ones. By My life! The light of a good character surpasseth the light of the sun and the radiance thereof. Whoso attaineth unto it is accounted as a jewel among men. The glory and the upliftment of the world must needs depend upon it. A goodly character is a means whereby men are guided to the Straight Path and are led to the Great Announcement. Well is it with him who is adorned with the saintly attributes and character of the Concourse on High.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 36

Who was the last Republican you voted for?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I can think of examples where it hasn't been.

I can think of many where it's failed.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The illegal immigrants don't need to come. Splitting up families is the same if you break the law and go to prison.

No, it's not. And the bulk majority of them aren't coming here illegally anyways.

I can think of many where it's failed.

It usually does. But, as I've been saying, when you live together you have to get along with each other. Or else society isn't healthy and it's not as strong as it could be. It can even make things unstable, it can be a major detriment, and it opens things up for authoritarian rule.

 

[1213]

The Trump Administration Human Rights Tracker
-Trump proclamation bars immigrants who cannot pay for healthcare
...

Interesting, thank you, it seems to me that many of those are not really human right issues.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Interesting, thank you, it seems to me that many of those are not really human right issues.

Healthcare is a humans rights issue.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

No, it's not. And the bulk majority of them aren't coming here illegally anyways.

It usually does. But, as I've been saying, when you live together you have to get along with each other. Or else society isn't healthy and it's not as strong as it could be. It can even make things unstable, it can be a major detriment, and it opens things up for authoritarian rule.

No one should have trouble if they are legal immigrants. There are cases where a few legal immigrants have gotten mistaken, that's down to the individual migration officials.

So empathise with the problems Republicans identify like illegal immigration and the shipping of jobs to the Third World.

 

[nPeace]

So who do you believe is going to govern? Is God going to come and govern the world, or do you believe Jesus is going to come back to earth and govern.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

I'm sorry, but your interpretation does not line up with the scriptures at all.

(1 Corinthians 15:23-28) 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

(Ephesians 1:8-12) 8 This undeserved kindness he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding 9 by making known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. Yes, in him 11 with whom we are in union and were assigned as heirs, having been foreordained according to the purpose of the one who accomplishes all things as he decides according to his will,12 so that we who have been first to hope in the Christ should serve for the praise of his glory. 13 But you also hoped in him after you heard the word of truth, the good news about your salvation. After you believed, you were sealed by means of him with the promised holy spirit, 14 which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing God’s own possession by a ransom, to his glorious praise.

(Luke 22:28-30) 28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

(2 Timothy 2:10-13) 10 For this reason I go on enduring all things for the sake of the chosen ones, so that they too may obtain the salvation that is through Christ Jesus, along with everlasting glory. 11 This saying is trustworthy: Certainly if we died together, we will also live together; 12 if we go on enduring, we will also rule together as kings; if we deny, he will also deny us; 13 if we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.

(Revelation 20:6) . . .Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

(Revelation 1:6) and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

(Revelation 5:9, 10) 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

(John 14:1-4) 1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God; exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be. 4 And where I am going, you know the way.”

(Luke 12:32) . . .“Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.

Evidently you are contradicting yourself, and the very scriptures you are quoting.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

I believe that man will govern himself and the future government will be patterned after the institutions of government that the Baha'i Faith has set up which governments will voluntarily adopt.

Baha'is do not interpret the story of Adam and Eve literally and we do not believe in original sin.

So you do not believe that man has free will whereby he should decide to make his own decisions?
Who then is going to make those decisions for man?

It does not matter what Bahais believe. Bahais interpretations are infallible to them... no one else. Not even Christ, or God... according to scripture. (2 Corinthians 11:13)

Apart from Jesus, Luther spoke of you guys, but not in a praiseworthy way.
Interpretation of Scripture
Luther writes, "The Christian reader should make it his first task to seek out the literal sense, as they call it. For it alone is the whole substance of faith and Christian theology; it alone holds its ground in trouble and trial." (LW. 9.24; Q. in Wood, 164) Luther saw this hermeneutic principle as a means of rescuing the meaning of Scripture from the manipulations of the allegorists and spiritualists. The individual truly interested in the meaning of the text, "should take pains to have one definite and simple understanding of Scripture and not to be a wanderer and vagabond, like the rabbis, the Scholastic theologians, and the professors of law, who are always toiling with ambiguities." (LW. 8.209; Q. in Ibid.)

I believe Bahais twist the scriptures to their own detriment.
(2 Peter 3:16) . . .these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Repeating... as you seemed to have not understood it.
(Jeremiah 10:23) I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.
Do you believe that scripture... or maybe you don't understand it? Or maybe you interpreted it in a way that one wonders how you got there?
Does it mean you don't have free will, and that you are not allowed to exercise free choice? Not at all.
(Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) 19 I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him, for he is your life and by him you will endure a long time in the land. . .

 

[Trailblazer]

I consider things like civil equality without any considerations of a god. It seems to me it has nothing to do with god unless one deliberately attaches god to it.

I believe there can be civil equality without a God belief.....
And one cannot attach it to a God they do not believe exists.

Why they do not believe God exists or if they want to believe God exists is another conversation.

 

[Trailblazer]

And we don't unify with some enemies, and we certainly don't commit the childish error of confusing 'unity' with 'peace.'

But if there was unity (I don't mean uniformity) there would be peace.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who was the last Republican you voted for?

I don't vote for Republicans, but that does not mean I am a Democrat, it means I prefer their policies and I like their candidates.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I don't vote for Republicans, but that does not mean I am a Democrat, it means I prefer their policies and I like their candidates.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm sorry, but your interpretation does not line up with the scriptures at all.

It lines up better than yours, because I have a further Revelation from God to base my interpretation on...
By contrast, all you have is a personal opinion as to what they mean, based upon no authority.

It does not matter what Bahais believe. Bahais interpretations are infallible to them... no one else. Not even Christ, or God... according to scripture. (2 Corinthians 11:13)

It does not matter what Christians believe. Christian interpretations are infallible to them... no one else.
Moreover, I do not care what the Bible says because I believe that the Bible dispensation has been abrogated.

I believe Bahais twist the scriptures to their own detriment.

I believe Christians twist the scriptures to their own detriment.
Do you see where this is going? Nowhere.

Repeating... as you seemed to have not understood it.
(Jeremiah 10:23) I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.
Do you believe that scripture... or maybe you don't understand it? Or maybe you interpreted it in a way that one wonders how you got there?
Does it mean you don't have free will, and that you are not allowed to exercise free choice? Not at all.

That verse does not mean we do not have free will. It means we are dependent upon God and God directs our steps, but we still have free will to choose; otherwise nobody could be held accountable for anything they do.

The same teachings that are in the Bible can be found in the Baha'i Writings. Read down to the parts I highlighted in red.

70: FREE WILL

Question.—Is man a free agent in all his actions, or is he compelled and constrained?

Answer.—This question is one of the most important and abstruse of divine problems. If God wills, another day, at the beginning of dinner, we will undertake the explanation of this subject in detail; now we will explain it briefly, in a few words, as follows. Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.

For example, if he wishes, he can pass his time in praising God, or he can be occupied with other thoughts. He can be an enkindled light through the fire of the love of God, and a philanthropist loving the world, or he can be a hater of mankind, and engrossed with material things. He can be just or cruel. These actions and these deeds are subject to the control of the will of man himself; consequently, he is responsible for them.

Now another question arises. Man is absolutely helpless and dependent, since might and power belong especially to God. Both exaltation and humiliation depend upon the good pleasure and the will of the Most High.

It is said in the New Testament that God is like a potter who makes “one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour.” 1 Now the dishonored vessel has no right to find fault with the potter saying, “Why did you not make me a precious cup, which is passed from hand to hand?” The meaning of this verse is that the states of beings are different. That which is in the lowest state of existence, like the mineral, has no right to complain, saying, “O God, why have You not given me the vegetable perfections?” In the same way, the plant has no right to complain that it has been deprived of the perfections of the animal world. Also it is not befitting for the animal to complain of the want of the human perfections. No, all these things are perfect in their own degree, and they must strive after the perfections of their own degree. The inferior beings, as we have said, have neither the right to, nor the fitness for, the states of the superior perfections. No, their progress must be in their own state.

Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God. So this condition is like that of a ship which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power ceases, the ship cannot move at all. Nevertheless, the rudder of the ship turns it to either side, and the power of the steam moves it in the desired direction. If it is directed to the east, it goes to the east; or if it is directed to the west, it goes to the west. This motion does not come from the ship; no, it comes from the wind or the steam.

In the same way, in all the action or inaction of man, he receives power from the help of God; but the choice of good or evil belongs to the man himself. So if a king should appoint someone to be the governor of a city, and should grant him the power of authority, and should show him the paths of justice and injustice according to the laws—if then this governor should commit injustice, although he should act by the authority and power of the king, the latter would be absolved from injustice.But if he should act with justice, he would do it also through the authority of the king, who would be pleased and satisfied.

That is to say, though the choice of good and evil belongs to man, under all circumstances he is dependent upon the sustaining help of life, which comes from the Omnipotent. The Kingdom of God is very great, and all are captives in the grasp of His Power. The servant cannot do anything by his own will; God is powerful, omnipotent, and the Helper of all beings.

This question has become clearly explained. Salutations!

Some Answered Questions, pp. 248-250

 

[nPeace]

It lines up better than yours, because I have a further Revelation from God to base my interpretation on...
By contrast, all you have is a personal opinion as to what they mean, based upon no authority.

From God? Yes. 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4
I have not given any personal opinion. What you received were scriptures.

It does not matter what Christians believe. Christian interpretations are infallible to them... no one else.
Moreover, I do not care what the Bible says because I believe that the Bible dispensation has been abrogated.

Thank you for that. That was evident to me for quite some time.

I believe Christians twist the scriptures to their own detriment.
Do you see where this is going? Nowhere.

That verse does not mean we do not have free will. It means we are dependent upon God and God directs our steps, but we still have free will to choose; otherwise nobody could be held accountable for anything they do.

The same teachings that are in the Bible can be found in the Baha'i Writings. Read down to the parts I highlighted in red.

70: FREE WILL

Question.—Is man a free agent in all his actions, or is he compelled and constrained?

Answer.—This question is one of the most important and abstruse of divine problems. If God wills, another day, at the beginning of dinner, we will undertake the explanation of this subject in detail; now we will explain it briefly, in a few words, as follows. Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.

For example, if he wishes, he can pass his time in praising God, or he can be occupied with other thoughts. He can be an enkindled light through the fire of the love of God, and a philanthropist loving the world, or he can be a hater of mankind, and engrossed with material things. He can be just or cruel. These actions and these deeds are subject to the control of the will of man himself; consequently, he is responsible for them.

Now another question arises. Man is absolutely helpless and dependent, since might and power belong especially to God. Both exaltation and humiliation depend upon the good pleasure and the will of the Most High.

It is said in the New Testament that God is like a potter who makes “one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour.” 1 Now the dishonored vessel has no right to find fault with the potter saying, “Why did you not make me a precious cup, which is passed from hand to hand?” The meaning of this verse is that the states of beings are different. That which is in the lowest state of existence, like the mineral, has no right to complain, saying, “O God, why have You not given me the vegetable perfections?” In the same way, the plant has no right to complain that it has been deprived of the perfections of the animal world. Also it is not befitting for the animal to complain of the want of the human perfections. No, all these things are perfect in their own degree, and they must strive after the perfections of their own degree. The inferior beings, as we have said, have neither the right to, nor the fitness for, the states of the superior perfections. No, their progress must be in their own state.

Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God. So this condition is like that of a ship which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power ceases, the ship cannot move at all. Nevertheless, the rudder of the ship turns it to either side, and the power of the steam moves it in the desired direction. If it is directed to the east, it goes to the east; or if it is directed to the west, it goes to the west. This motion does not come from the ship; no, it comes from the wind or the steam.

In the same way, in all the action or inaction of man, he receives power from the help of God; but the choice of good or evil belongs to the man himself. So if a king should appoint someone to be the governor of a city, and should grant him the power of authority, and should show him the paths of justice and injustice according to the laws—if then this governor should commit injustice, although he should act by the authority and power of the king, the latter would be absolved from injustice.But if he should act with justice, he would do it also through the authority of the king, who would be pleased and satisfied.

That is to say, though the choice of good and evil belongs to man, under all circumstances he is dependent upon the sustaining help of life, which comes from the Omnipotent. The Kingdom of God is very great, and all are captives in the grasp of His Power. The servant cannot do anything by his own will; God is powerful, omnipotent, and the Helper of all beings.

This question has become clearly explained. Salutations!

Some Answered Questions, pp. 248-250

Take care.

 

[nPeace]

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But if there was unity (I don't mean uniformity) there would be peace.

Much as there was 'peace' in the early South so long as the slaves were not too uppity. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Trailblazer]

From God? Yes. 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4

That is not from God, it is from Paul. Paul does not speak for God, only Jesus speaks for God.

I have not given any personal opinion. What you received were scriptures.

But you have a personal opinion regarding what the scriptures mean, and I have a different personal opinion.

That is the entire crux of the issue. You believe they mean x, I believe they mean y.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm basically the same. Not a Dem though I haven't voted for a Republican since '04 or '06, and probably about 8 years since I voted for a Libertarian.
But, in the end, Dems don't demonize me and try to strip me of rights and equality like Reps do. So I basically have no reason to vote Rep. That, and many of their attitudes that demonize people I care about and does include thoughts like "compromise means Democrats yielding to Conservative ways." So I vote Dem despite not being one (Economic reasons as well, but I only very slightly more agree with them than I do Reps).