A challenge for Christians

[wizanda]

UNtil we understand that there is only one full truth, and real interpretation, then it is just a never ending argument between two people that hang on twqo different interpretaions. The Holy Spirit gives one type of interpretation, any other type is of something else- some other origin. And GOd is not the author of confusion.

So if you believe this, why not look at some of the points, some of us have spent our life times working towards.....

 

[Fluffy]

Heya Autodidact,
"Christian" like "Muslim" or "Jew" is a word used to describe a person's belief system. There is no central theme that is adopted by all Christians only small overlaps from one to the next. Since we cannot know for certain what the contents of a person's belief system are, we are very limited in accurately applying those terms. Its not like I can point at a piece of verifiable evidence and say "well this shows that this person obviously believes this".

The fact is that there are probably plenty of people who call themselves Christian and genuinly believe that they are Christian yet lack sufficient understanding of Christian beliefs to be accurately defined as Christian. You asked whether they were lying or deluded and I think the latter is most common.

Many Christians on this forum have replied without answering your question about the list. I personally find this thread remarkable in that it is the only conversation I have ever been in within which theists have advocated scepticism and been encouraged to suspend scepticism by an atheist. This is not a criticism of either you or theists but, as a sceptic myself, I can fully understand why they are reluctant to "try out" their definition on your list given both the limited information they have of the people and the physical inaccessibility of the kind of evidence required (ie their thoughts and beliefs) to answer such a question accurately.

I might refer to somebody as Christian but I will always have a doubt to whether they are or are not because, whilst I don't believe in a God who does have access to their innermost thoughts, I surely believe that I don't possess that ability myself.

Maybe the people on your list are Christian. Maybe not. Only God knows and as far as I'm concerned he doesn't even exist.

 

[Autodidact]

Heya Autodidact,
"Christian" like "Muslim" or "Jew" is a word used to describe a person's belief system. There is no central theme that is adopted by all Christians only small overlaps from one to the next. Since we cannot know for certain what the contents of a person's belief system are, we are very limited in accurately applying those terms. Its not like I can point at a piece of verifiable evidence and say "well this shows that this person obviously believes this".

The fact is that there are probably plenty of people who call themselves Christian and genuinly believe that they are Christian yet lack sufficient understanding of Christian beliefs to be accurately defined as Christian. You asked whether they were lying or deluded and I think the latter is most common.

Many Christians on this forum have replied without answering your question about the list. I personally find this thread remarkable in that it is the only conversation I have ever been in within which theists have advocated scepticism and been encouraged to suspend scepticism by an atheist. This is not a criticism of either you or theists but, as a sceptic myself, I can fully understand why they are reluctant to "try out" their definition on your list given both the limited information they have of the people and the physical inaccessibility of the kind of evidence required (ie their thoughts and beliefs) to answer such a question accurately.

I might refer to somebody as Christian but I will always have a doubt to whether they are or are not because, whilst I don't believe in a God who does have access to their innermost thoughts, I surely believe that I don't possess that ability myself.

Maybe the people on your list are Christian. Maybe not. Only God knows and as far as I'm concerned he doesn't even exist.

Yes but in normal conversation we do need a word to describe the group of people who practice Christianity. e.g. Your best friend is dating someone new, you might ask, "Is s/he Christian?" You might want to know whether a Presidential Candidate is Christian. (I don't, but some do.) You might just want to know whether to wish someone a Merry Christmas. So we have a regular old English word to describe these people in normal conversation, and the word is "Christian."

 

[Katzpur]

Yes but in normal conversation we do need a word to describe the group of people who practice Christianity. e.g. Your best friend is dating someone new, you might ask, "Is s/he Christian?" You might want to know whether a Presidential Candidate is Christian. (I don't, but some do.) You might just want to know whether to wish someone a Merry Christmas. So we have a regular old English word to describe these people in normal conversation, and the word is "Christian."

You're absolutely right, but in every one of your examples, the best way of determining whether or not someone was a Christian would be to simply ask the person himself.

 

[Fluffy]

Yes but in normal conversation we do need a word to describe the group of people who practice Christianity. e.g. Your best friend is dating someone new, you might ask, "Is s/he Christian?" You might want to know whether a Presidential Candidate is Christian. (I don't, but some do.) You might just want to know whether to wish someone a Merry Christmas. So we have a regular old English word to describe these people in normal conversation, and the word is "Christian."

In the OP you asked us to define Christian and then apply that definition to your list. So many people gave their definition and then pointed out the inherent difficulty of accurately applying the term in reality due to the very nature of the concept being dealt with.

I'm not saying you can't use the term in the way you suggest. But personally I let others describe their religious beliefs and try and avoid summing them with categories. For example, there ae many where I am at the moment who would take offense at being called Christian not because they are not but because they are Protestant and Christian is synonymous with Catholic in this region.

So yes on a practical level I might refer to someone as Christian in order to sum up a complex issue in a short amount of time. But if you ask me to test the edges of that definition then it becomes difficult for me to do so because it is simply an approximation. It doesn't really have edges to be tested. I have seen definitions of Christian that are equally justifiable in my opinion (after all who owns a word?) that would discount or count every person on your list and then a dozen more that would just take a dozen different cross sections.

Saying, "I don't really know" is more honest for someone in my position.

 

[Autodidact]

In the OP you asked us to define Christian and then apply that definition to your list. So many people gave their definition and then pointed out the inherent difficulty of accurately applying the term in reality due to the very nature of the concept being dealt with.

I'm not saying you can't use the term in the way you suggest. But personally I let others describe their religious beliefs and try and avoid summing them with categories. For example, there ae many where I am at the moment who would take offense at being called Christian not because they are not but because they are Protestant and Christian is synonymous with Catholic in this region.

So yes on a practical level I might refer to someone as Christian in order to sum up a complex issue in a short amount of time. But if you ask me to test the edges of that definition then it becomes difficult for me to do so because it is simply an approximation. It doesn't really have edges to be tested. I have seen definitions of Christian that are equally justifiable in my opinion (after all who owns a word?) that would discount or count every person on your list and then a dozen more that would just take a dozen different cross sections.

Saying, "I don't really know" is more honest for someone in my position.

Well, it sounds like your working definition is the same as mine, "someone who calls themselves a Christian." That works for me. I figure that is the closes we can get to determining their actual beliefs. After all, what would be their motivation to lie about it? (Unless they're a Jew in 15th century Spain or something.)