A challenge for Christians

[Katzpur]

A Christian is someone who does their best to follow the teachings of Jesus.

Would you say that in order to be a Christian, a person must have a conscious knowledge that it is Christ's teachings he is following? What about a person who is not a professing Christian, but strives to live a good life, but does so independently of Jesus' example?

 

[slabbey06]

O.K., then, you have no problem with say e.g. Rev. Phelps as a Christian then?

If he's put his faith in Christ alone for the forgiveness of his sins, then I don't have a problem saying he's a Christian. Does that mean I condone his actions or think he is right in them? Not at all! Does it mean I think he's living or acting as Christ would want him to? Nope!
I know that throughout history people have done horrible things in "the name of Jesus." It saddens me to no end. But for every Rev. Phelps I can think of many others who in "the name of Jesus" love and reach out to others, serving and loving them whether they agree with their lifestyle or not.

 

[Super Universe]

Would you say that in order to be a Christian, a person must have a conscious knowledge that it is Christ's teachings he is following? What about a person who is not a professing Christian, but strives to live a good life, but does so independently of Jesus' example?

I would say that being a Christian or not being a Christian does not matter whatsoever. Taking sides is something that has wrongly been attributed to God. Credit for that goes entirely to the priests/mullahs and other religious leaders who have misrepresented God all through history.

Being a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Mormon, Satanist, whatever, does not matter to God. If He wanted you to believe in and worship Him He could make it happen in an instant but there's a reason He doesn't.

Build your own moral character, cement it into stone and never waver from it. That is what matters, not what group you belong to.

The rest of the world can live a competitive selfish existence if it so desires.

 

[ChristineES]

I'd be willing to bet, though, that Gandhi is in a much better place right now than Hitler is.

Amen to that!

 

[Vassal]

I would say that being a Christian or not being a Christian does not matter whatsoever. Taking sides is something that has wrongly been attributed to God. Credit for that goes entirely to the priests/mullahs and other religious leaders who have misrepresented God all through history.

Being a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Mormon, Satanist, whatever, does not matter to God. If He wanted you to believe in and worship Him He could make it happen in an instant but there's a reason He doesn't.

Build your own moral character, cement it into stone and never waver from it. That is what matters, not what group you belong to.

The rest of the world can live a competitive selfish existence if it so desires.

Being a Christian most certainly does matter, and the idea of universalism is absurd. If everyone is going to be saved then what reason is there to obey God? Even if Universalists believe in some kind of temporary punishment for wrongdoings, then there still is no compelling reason to obey God because any finite period of time is meaningless in comparison to eternity. Do you think that God won’t take vengeance on those who harm the people he loves (which is everyone)? God requires that we obey all the laws, so breaking even one law means you’ve failed to do what you were required to do. You can’t gain “extra credit” to make up for the laws you broke by merely doing what is already required of you. The only way to gain that “extra credit” is through Christ Jesus, so those who don’t believe will be punished for their failure to obey.

Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons, Satanists, etc, have no favor with God because it is not your morality that finds favor with God. It is your faith in Christ Jesus that saves you, so without that you have no hope regardless of how “good” of a person you are. Those who have faith in Christ Jesus will strive to be as moral as possible, so an immoral person is not a believer in Christ, and a moral person is not necessarily a believer in Christ. I’m not referring to anyone on that list the OP made, in fact I didn’t even read it, but a “bad Christian” is not a Christian at all. There is no such thing as a “bad Christian”. Jesus makes it very clear that belief in him is far, far, FAR, more than just saying the words “I believe in Jesus”, so just because someone claims to be a Christian does mean they are. I’m not saying that Christians are perfect and never do anything wrong, but belief in Christ is never justification to do wrong and anyone who uses it as such is certainly not a Christian.

 

[Smoke]

Being a Christian most certainly does matter, and the idea of universalism is absurd. If everyone is going to be saved then what reason is there to obey God?

That's the problem with being God. Everybody wants to come to your party, but it's hard to find somebody who just loves you for yourself.

 

[!Fluffy!]

Well there is "horizontal" Christianity, and there is "vertical" Christianity. Horizontal Christianity focuses on its earthly surroundings, edifices, rituals, sacraments, holy books, sacred objects, images, church power structures, and legalism.

Some Christians love and worship religion and its trappings.

Some Christians love and worship the Bible, or just one version of it.

Some Christians actually love and worship Christ.

The Christ-centered Christian's focus is "vertical", they look beyond the material and the object of their love and attention is on a much higher spiritual plane: Christ the source of all that is good. In my experience these are the Christians whose spiritual fruit is an almost supernatural agape (unconditional) love that permeates everything they do. They are pretty easy to spot in a crowd. We all want to be like them, I think.

 

[joeboonda]

Judgement, when and who to judge and not to judge: (warning understanding and discernment required!)

1 Samuel 16:7
...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.


Matthew 7:1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Matthew 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:


John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Acts 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Romans 14:13
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.


1 Corinthians 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1 Corinthians 6:4
If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
1 Corinthians 6:5
I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
1 Corinthians 11:31
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.


Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Hebrews 10:30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.


James 4:11
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
James 5:9
Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.


1 Peter 4:5
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Revelation 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 

[Super Universe]

Being a Christian most certainly does matter, and the idea of universalism is absurd. If everyone is going to be saved then what reason is there to obey God? Even if Universalists believe in some kind of temporary punishment for wrongdoings, then there still is no compelling reason to obey God because any finite period of time is meaningless in comparison to eternity. Do you think that God won’t take vengeance on those who harm the people he loves (which is everyone)? God requires that we obey all the laws, so breaking even one law means you’ve failed to do what you were required to do. You can’t gain “extra credit” to make up for the laws you broke by merely doing what is already required of you. The only way to gain that “extra credit” is through Christ Jesus, so those who don’t believe will be punished for their failure to obey.

Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons, Satanists, etc, have no favor with God because it is not your morality that finds favor with God. It is your faith in Christ Jesus that saves you, so without that you have no hope regardless of how “good” of a person you are. Those who have faith in Christ Jesus will strive to be as moral as possible, so an immoral person is not a believer in Christ, and a moral person is not necessarily a believer in Christ. I’m not referring to anyone on that list the OP made, in fact I didn’t even read it, but a “bad Christian” is not a Christian at all. There is no such thing as a “bad Christian”. Jesus makes it very clear that belief in him is far, far, FAR, more than just saying the words “I believe in Jesus”, so just because someone claims to be a Christian does mean they are. I’m not saying that Christians are perfect and never do anything wrong, but belief in Christ is never justification to do wrong and anyone who uses it as such is certainly not a Christian.

Ahh, a true "Fire and Brimstone" preacher!

You can believe what you wish, that God is an angry, bitter, jealous, vengeful being, but that does not make it so. In fact it's blasphemy of the worst kind. You don't want forgiveness, you want revenge.

But God loves all, not just the self righteous who don't understand the idea of forgiveness because they are too busy being bitter towards their fellow man.

Faith in Jesus means nothing without morality. Talk is cheap. Jesus told a parable: A man asks one son to go and work in the field, the boy says "Yes father I will go" but the boy does not. The man asks his other son to go and work in the field and the boy says "No, I will not" but then the boy does go and work in the field.

Which is better, the one who talks about what is right or the one who does what is right?

 

[athanasius]

Judgement, when and who to judge and not to judge: (warning understanding and discernment required!)

1 Samuel 16:7
...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.


Matthew 7:1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Matthew 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:


John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Acts 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Romans 14:13
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.


1 Corinthians 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1 Corinthians 6:4
If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
1 Corinthians 6:5
I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
1 Corinthians 11:31
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.


Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Hebrews 10:30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.


James 4:11
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
James 5:9
Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.


1 Peter 4:5
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Revelation 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Hey do you ever write anything from yourself or do you just quote scripture??? How do you expect someone to be able to properly interpet the scriptures if you do not give a meaningful exegesis of the passages? I find just scripture quoting(apart from giving meaningful explantions/exegsis) to be fruitless and annoying! :yes:

 

[Katzpur]

Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons, Satanists, etc, have no favor with God because it is not your morality that finds favor with God. It is your faith in Christ Jesus that saves you, so without that you have no hope regardless of how “good” of a person you are.

Who are you to tell me I have no favor with God? What arrogance! And what makes you so sure I have no faith in Jesus Christ? He is my Savior every bit as much as He is yours.

 

[Autodidact]

If he's put his faith in Christ alone for the forgiveness of his sins, then I don't have a problem saying he's a Christian. Does that mean I condone his actions or think he is right in them? Not at all! Does it mean I think he's living or acting as Christ would want him to? Nope!
I know that throughout history people have done horrible things in "the name of Jesus." It saddens me to no end. But for every Rev. Phelps I can think of many others who in "the name of Jesus" love and reach out to others, serving and loving them whether they agree with their lifestyle or not.

Yes, he does, and I agree with you and respect your courage and honesty. When his name comes up, 9/10 Christians deny that he is a Christian.

 

[Autodidact]

Nobody seems to want to take you up on your challenge. I don't know who some of these people are, but you don't need to bother to tell me. I know Gandhi was not a Christian, and I know Hitler was. As a Christian myself, it's hard for me to understand how Hitler, as a professed Christian, could have committed the atrocities he did, but my point is this: I don't believe Christian=good person and non-Christian=bad person. If a person believes himself to be a Christian, I'll take him at his word and let God do the judging. I'd be willing to bet, though, that Gandhi is in a much better place right now than Hitler is.

Right on. I agree completely. Except for the last bit. I'd be willing to bet that they're both in the same place: dead. I would bet, though, that Gandhi had a much better and happier life, which is what I think matters.

 

[Autodidact]

A Christian is someone who does their best to follow the teachings of Jesus.

I can't speak to whether those names you posted are doing their best.

What if they view the teachings of Jesus differently from how you do?

 

[Autodidact]

Being a Christian most certainly does matter, and the idea of universalism is absurd. If everyone is going to be saved then what reason is there to obey God? Even if Universalists believe in some kind of temporary punishment for wrongdoings, then there still is no compelling reason to obey God because any finite period of time is meaningless in comparison to eternity. Do you think that God won’t take vengeance on those who harm the people he loves (which is everyone)? God requires that we obey all the laws, so breaking even one law means you’ve failed to do what you were required to do. You can’t gain “extra credit” to make up for the laws you broke by merely doing what is already required of you. The only way to gain that “extra credit” is through Christ Jesus, so those who don’t believe will be punished for their failure to obey.

Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons, Satanists, etc, have no favor with God because it is not your morality that finds favor with God. It is your faith in Christ Jesus that saves you, so without that you have no hope regardless of how “good” of a person you are. Those who have faith in Christ Jesus will strive to be as moral as possible, so an immoral person is not a believer in Christ, and a moral person is not necessarily a believer in Christ. I’m not referring to anyone on that list the OP made, in fact I didn’t even read it, but a “bad Christian” is not a Christian at all. There is no such thing as a “bad Christian”. Jesus makes it very clear that belief in him is far, far, FAR, more than just saying the words “I believe in Jesus”, so just because someone claims to be a Christian does mean they are. I’m not saying that Christians are perfect and never do anything wrong, but belief in Christ is never justification to do wrong and anyone who uses it as such is certainly not a Christian.

Thank you for providing a stunning example of a good Christian.

In your estimation, about how many or what percentage of people who claim to be Christian actually are?

Would you pleeeeze answer the list? Thank you.

 

[!Fluffy!]

Judgement, when and who to judge and not to judge: (warning understanding and discernment required!)

1 Samuel 16:7
...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.


Matthew 7:1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Matthew 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:


John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Acts 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Romans 14:13
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.


1 Corinthians 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1 Corinthians 6:4
If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
1 Corinthians 6:5
I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
1 Corinthians 11:31
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.


Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Hebrews 10:30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.


James 4:11
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
James 5:9
Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.


1 Peter 4:5
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Revelation 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

An excellent and revealing compilation JB, thanks for sharing it.

As to any detracting viewpoints i'd note it is self-explanatory: God tells us clearly not to judge because THAT'S HIS JOB, NOT OURS.

 

[Vassal]

Thank you for providing a stunning example of a good Christian.

In your estimation, about how many or what percentage of people who claim to be Christian actually are?

Would you pleeeeze answer the list? Thank you.

It would be impossible to give an accurate estimate, but the percentage is definitely very small. Even my own church I would be surprised if half the people were saved. It's not that they are "bad people", but they just don't seem grasp the level of commitment that Jesus said we must have. They seem to just be "Sunday Christians". They show up on Sundays and profess to be Christians, but that's about it. I don't know everyone there on a personal basis, so I could be wrong, but being a Christian is far more than being a "good person". Then there's also people, such as Mormon's and Catholics, who call themselves Christians but have little or no beliefs that agree with the Bible, so that lowers the figure as well. I'm not going to give any estimate, just know that ratio of true Christian to self-proclaimed Christian is very low. Anyone who is truly interested in knowing the truth should make sure to read and understand the entire Bible, as for some reason even most people who claim to be Christian don't even do that.

I don't know much about any of those people on that list other than Hitler and Gandhi, neither of which were believers in Christ as far as I've read, so that would mean they weren't saved. Most of the others on the list I've never even heard of so I can't comment.

 

[lilithu]

This comes up for us atheists when we point out Christian atrocities, such as say the wholesale slaughter of the Jews in Medieval Europe, and the response is that those are not "real Christians."

You guys are talking about two different things. You're talking about Christendom - the society that is at least nominally Christian. They're talking about Christian ideals, and saying that those people did not live up to those ideas.

My intro religious studies prof said something that I will never forget: People tend to judge others by the worst of their actions and judge themselves by the best of their ideals.

My definition of "Christian" is anyone who self-identifies as Christian. It's not up to me to say who is and who isn't. By that criteria, Gandhi is not Christian. But just for balance, Mother Teresa, Desmond Tutu and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. are.

 

[Super Universe]

What if they view the teachings of Jesus differently from how you do?

Well I guess it depends on how different they interpret Jesus teachings.

If they promote anger towards their fellow man instead of forgiveness I'd say they weren't following Jesus teachings at all.

 

[Super Universe]

It would be impossible to give an accurate estimate, but the percentage is definitely very small. Even my own church I would be surprised if half the people were saved. It's not that they are "bad people", but they just don't seem grasp the level of commitment that Jesus said we must have. They seem to just be "Sunday Christians". They show up on Sundays and profess to be Christians, but that's about it. I don't know everyone there on a personal basis, so I could be wrong, but being a Christian is far more than being a "good person". Then there's also people, such as Mormon's and Catholics, who call themselves Christians but have little or no beliefs that agree with the Bible, so that lowers the figure as well. I'm not going to give any estimate, just know that ratio of true Christian to self-proclaimed Christian is very low. Anyone who is truly interested in knowing the truth should make sure to read and understand the entire Bible, as for some reason even most people who claim to be Christian don't even do that.

I don't know much about any of those people on that list other than Hitler and Gandhi, neither of which were believers in Christ as far as I've read, so that would mean they weren't saved. Most of the others on the list I've never even heard of so I can't comment.

You're just having a great time judging everyone, even the members of your own church.

Perhaps you could attempt a little experiment for me, just give it a try and tell me what happens.

Here is the experiment: Forgive them.