A challenge for Christians

[wizanda]

Mat 5:9
(9)[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Why do you separate your self from others?

 

[JayHawes]

We do not separate ourselves. The World separates themselves from us.

Joh 15:18 If you are hated by the world, keep in mind that I was hated by the world before you.

Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, you would be loved by the world: but because you are not of the world, but I have taken you out of the world, you are hated by the world.

Darkness does not like the presense of Light, darkness does not like moral reform, or moral standards, darkness loves darkness, and darkness will always move itself from the light.


Joh 3:19 And this is the test by which men are judged: the light has come into the world and men have more love for the dark than for the light, because their acts are evil.

Joh 3:20 The light is hated by everyone whose acts are evil and he does not come to the light for fear that his acts will be seen.

 

[wizanda]

We do not separate ourselves. The World separates themselves from us.

Joh 15:18 If you are hated by the world, keep in mind that I was hated by the world before you.

Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, you would be loved by the world: but because you are not of the world, but I have taken you out of the world, you are hated by the world.

Darkness does not like the presense of Light, darkness does not like moral reform, or moral standards, darkness loves darkness, and darkness will always move itself from the light.


Joh 3:19 And this is the test by which men are judged: the light has come into the world and men have more love for the dark than for the light, because their acts are evil.

Joh 3:20 The light is hated by everyone whose acts are evil and he does not come to the light for fear that his acts will be seen.

Mat 5:14-16
(14) You are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
(15) Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
(16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Rev 11:18
(18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth:rainbow1:

 

[JayHawes]

Mat 5:14-16
(14) You are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
(15) Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
(16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Rev 11:18
(18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth:rainbow1:

YOu quote scripture and leave others to guess your interpretation with smily faces...

Jesus is the Light, and those who are of him are become like him. We become the light and salt of the earth. Who is that light within us? It's Jesus' spirit we are to let him shine by our works.

And I dont know why you underline that last part...many men destroy the earth, these will be judged.

 

[wizanda]

YOu quote scripture and leave others to guess your interpretation with smily faces...

Jesus is the Light, and those who are of him are become like him. We become the light and salt of the earth. Who is that light within us? It's Jesus' spirit we are to let him shine by our works.

And I dont know why you underline that last part...many men destroy the earth, these will be judged.

Mar 9:49-50
(49) For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
(50) Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

 

[rojse]

The teachings of the Bible can be interpreted in any which way you please. Some of those people from the list might not deserve to be on there, even though they claim to be Christians. I will not debate that part of the topic, I do not consider myself qualified. The Bible includes a lot of supposedly unchristian ideas, such as polygamy, incest and murder, which are three of the top of my head.

Surely, if the Catholic Church disagreed with the morals of the Christians on there that some say should not be, why are they not excommunicated, especially the ordained Reverends? I am talking about Reverend Jerry Falwell, Reverend Fred Phelps, and Reverend Ted Haggard? Surely excommunication them would send a strong message regarding the true morals of the Catholic Church and the Bible, and the Church's stand on their actions.

 

[Smoke]

To me, a Christian is a member of a Christian community of some kind and/or a follower of some form of Christianity. Thus, I'd say that the Jehovah's Witness, the Mormon, the Catholic, and the Baptist are all Christians, even though each one may believe that the Christianity of the other three is defective in some important ways.

Most of the Christians responding here (except athanasius) seem to feel that there is some difficulty in knowing who is "really" a Christian. Paul, however, found no difficulty in excluding heretics (people whose beliefs he considered defective) from Christianity, and the Gospels quote Jesus as saying that a person's relationship to God is primarily a matter of deeds:

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

* * *
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
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So it seems to me that all of the people on your list are Christians, except for Gandhi, but most of them are/were not followers of Jesus, and neither are most Christians. Gandhi and Jimmy Carter are the two who seem to have been most influenced by the teachings of Jesus. Since Christianity didn't exist in the lifetime of Jesus, and since its teachings are not derived from his teachings -- his significance to Christianity is mostly a ritual significance -- I don't see any contradiction at all in that, but I imagine most Christians would disagree.

I realize the challenge was for Christians, but they seem reluctant to take it up. Most of them, except for athanasius, seem to feel that there are no objective criteria by which one can determine who is or is not a Christian.

 

[Smoke]

Surely, if the Catholic Church disagreed with the morals of the Christians on there that some say should not be, why are they not excommunicated, especially the ordained Reverends? I am talking about Reverend Jerry Falwell, Reverend Fred Phelps, and Reverend Ted Haggard? Surely excommunication them would send a strong message regarding the true morals of the Catholic Church and the Bible, and the Church's stand on their actions.

None of those three are Catholics.

 

[wizanda]

Well Agree on if people really have ever followed Yeshua and the Bible; as to me (can prove this) anyone who accepts John, Paul and Simon can not be following Christ's words and countless prophets globally.......
As you May have gathered the word Christian stems from their ministries also….Christ said we are called “Children of God”….

 

[kmkemp]

There is no way that we can absolutely judge a man's heart, but how can we have any fellowship or ministry if we don't have a good idea? That is where judging by fruits comes into play. If one has the Holy Spirit, God will continue in their sanctification producing good works. Therefore, if you do not see any good works from someone, it is probably the case (although not necessarily) that they are not a Christian. And when I use the term Christian, I am referring to a member of God's church and not anyone professing to follow Jesus.

 

[Autodidact]

Seems like the only problem here is using slightly different definitions. Here's my take on it (and I'm a Christian, in case it matters).

There is one definition for the word Christian which counts anyone who believes that they follow and worship Christ. In this way, it's about things that you think are true, and where you put your allegiances--with Jesus and a certain idea of God.

There is another definition which counts anyone who believes they follow Christ, and also loving your neighbor, being kind, generous, peaceful, basically good to people around you. When someone says that a person is "not a real Christian", usually they mean they are a Christian according to the first definition, but not according to the second. For example, many people would say Fred Phelps is Christian in one way (beliefs) but not in the other (actions). Or they may shorten it to "not Christian" and then it's implied they are talking about his actions.

Another way it's sometimes used is to say that the religion involves more detail than simply the divinity of Christ, and so a Christian is someone who accepts a specific set of beliefs centered around Jesus. Usually people will use this related to branches of the church, so they might say "Protestants aren't Christians" or "Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Christians" or any other group, to mean that those groups believe things that aren't true or don't believe things that are true. For another example, someone may say Bishop Carlton Pearson is not Christian because the speaker thinks his church is founded on mistruths about Christ.

I'm not going to go through the whole list, but hopefully this is helpful.

I think it's very helpful. Two different usages of the same word. Its #3 that gets controversial, I think.

On #2, I would say, though, that Rev. Phelps believes that he is following Christ in his behavior as well as his doctrine. (I believe.)

In the world of the internet, the rhetorical issue is usually to try to pin down the post-er to a single consistent definition. For example, someone may argue in the same thread that the majority of the world's theists are Christian, and that those people who rampaged across Europe raping, pillaging and murdering Jews were not Christians. They're trading on the ambiguity, I maintain.

Atheists have a problem with definition #2, and I think you can see the problem. Since Christianity accepts that everyone sins, including Christians, at what point do you cut someone off and say their sin is too great to be included. It is ripe for a No True Scotsman problem, as the Christian can conveniently cut anyone out of their religion who does bad things. Then they argue that Christians do lots of good things. Well, they're built "does good things" into their definition of Christian!

I wish I could get someone to try my list...:fishing:

 

[ChristineES]

Here is the reason that none of us will try your list. Here is what Jesus said:

Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!

I have tried hard to say this and since I think I have failed I would use Jesus' own words to tell you. There is no sin too great for Jesus to forgive (except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit). All one needs to do is repent. I am beginning to believe that certain people just don't want to repent from their sins, they seem to believe that God should just accept everything they do. That is the way the world has become so they seem to think that is the way God should become.
The problem is that some things can not be ignored.

 

[slabbey06]

Since Christianity accepts that everyone sins, including Christians, at what point do you cut someone off and say their sin is too great to be included.

No sin is ever too great to "cut someone off." All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) I believe I deserve hell just as much as Hitler, not because I've done as "bad" of sins as he did, but because any sin is enough to separate me from God in His holiness. In other words, I believe that anyone, no matter who they are or what they've done, who believes that Jesus is God and puts their faith in Him alone is saved.

I wish I could get someone to try my list...:fishing:

I don't think I'll try your list

 

[Inky]

On #2, I would say, though, that Rev. Phelps believes that he is following Christ in his behavior as well as his doctrine. (I believe.)

True. Usually the use of 2 and 3 will depend on the speaker's beliefs as well as the beliefs of whoever they're talking about. The definitions I tossed out were just the ones in common use, and most common-use terms aren't designed for precision.

In the world of the internet, the rhetorical issue is usually to try to pin down the post-er to a single consistent definition. For example, someone may argue in the same thread that the majority of the world's theists are Christian, and that those people who rampaged across Europe raping, pillaging and murdering Jews were not Christians. They're trading on the ambiguity, I maintain.

Atheists have a problem with definition #2, and I think you can see the problem. Since Christianity accepts that everyone sins, including Christians, at what point do you cut someone off and say their sin is too great to be included. It is ripe for a No True Scotsman problem, as the Christian can conveniently cut anyone out of their religion who does bad things. Then they argue that Christians do lots of good things. Well, they're built "does good things" into their definition of Christian!

I've noticed this, too. I usually try and not use the word as a value judgment (i.e. nicer person = better Christian) since most people wouldn't see it that way, but it doesn't bother me when other people do. If someone believes that their religion is about doing good, then someone doing more good is being a better member of their religion, from their perspective. Part of the problem, I think, is that people are used to using language in a more casual way, and then they get to a situation where you need to be precise and aren't used to it. The only thing to do is point it out to them, I guess. Of course some people really are doing it to be weaselly, but I try and assume they're not.

 

[Autodidact]

No sin is ever too great to "cut someone off." All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) I believe I deserve hell just as much as Hitler, not because I've done as "bad" of sins as he did, but because any sin is enough to separate me from God in His holiness. In other words, I believe that anyone, no matter who they are or what they've done, who believes that Jesus is God and puts their faith in Him alone is saved.

O.K., then, you have no problem with say e.g. Rev. Phelps as a Christian then?

 

[Autodidact]

I appreciate all of you fellow Christians thoughtful responses, even though none of you had the nerve to try the list.

I would say, though, that in the common usage of the word, that most people mean, is a member of the Christian religion, someone who calls themselves Christian, follows the Bible, wears a cross, goes to Church, etc. I don't have to "read their heart" or analyse their works to see how good their fruits are. So in the common usage, everyone on the list is a Christian except Gandhi.

And since this is the common usage, to say that some of them aren't at a minimum causes confusion, and can be less than intellectually honest.

I mean, I'm an atheist, and apparently so was Stalin. I don't have to like the guy. Hitler, OTOH, was a Christian. In the common sense of the word. In fact, I believe he died an un-excommunicated Catholic.

 

[Katzpur]

A challenge for any Christians who are game:

Please define "Christian."

Using your definition, which of the following people are Christian?

Rev. Fred Phelps
Rev. Troy Perry
Bishop Carlton Pearson
Pope Innocent III
Gandhi
Mit Romney
Jimmy Carter
Rev. Ted Haggard
Kent Hovind
Hitler
John Shelby Spong
Rev. Jerry Falwell
James Kopp

Just ask me if you don't know who any of them are.

Thanks.

Nobody seems to want to take you up on your challenge. I don't know who some of these people are, but you don't need to bother to tell me. I know Gandhi was not a Christian, and I know Hitler was. As a Christian myself, it's hard for me to understand how Hitler, as a professed Christian, could have committed the atrocities he did, but my point is this: I don't believe Christian=good person and non-Christian=bad person. If a person believes himself to be a Christian, I'll take him at his word and let God do the judging. I'd be willing to bet, though, that Gandhi is in a much better place right now than Hitler is.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Love is the only acid test for a Christian. But please don't ask me to determine whether these people are Christians or not. I know that many who think they are a disciple are not, and many who don't think they are will be found to be just that.

 

[Super Universe]

A Christian is someone who does their best to follow the teachings of Jesus.

I can't speak to whether those names you posted are doing their best.

 

[Quagmire]

"A real Christian is someone who's so busy trying to convince God that he's a real Christian that he doesn't have time to worry about whether or not other christians think he's a real christian.
That's a real christian."
---St. Anchovie of Pesto (a real Christian)