A challenge to all Christians

[blü 2]

Right, so that they would die, just like he told them they would if they ate from the tree of knowledge.

No, God told them that if they ate from the tree of kog&e, they'd die the same day. Which they didn't. So that won't work.

There's no hint that they were going to be immortal in the story ─ only of God's unambiguous determination to prevent them doing so lest they become like him.

And the story gives no hint that 'death entered the world' at this time. Instead, God's threat ─ not only die, but die the same day ─ regarding the tree of kog&e makes no sense unless death were already a given. Otherwise Adam and Eve would have replied, "Die? What on earth does that mean? What are you talking about?" But they didn't.

930 years later Adam died.

That appears to borrow from the Mesopotamian tradition of attributing extraordinary lifespans to legendary heroes of the past, (such as their king-lists show).

 

[Kenny]

Adam and Eve were created dumb and naked. God put more knowledge in the tree than in Adam and Eve.

Actually... no (not to mention that you haven't given any scriptural support so it remains an opinion)

FACT: Adam named all the animals. I would venture that on just that one point, Adam would be smarter than most people.

It is only after they ate from the tree of knowledge that their eyes were opened. God even repeats what the serpent said. Note: God said man has NOW become like us (after eating the fruit).

All in context. Gen 1 "Let us make man in our image and in our likeness". Therefore, they were already like God. They didn't need to know what evil was. So your point is mute.

So the first sin committed was by God lying to Adam and Eve which the serpent easily dismissed. The second is creating death by killing the animals to make skin garments for them and by deny them access to the tree of life which would have allowed them to live forever.

Again... God didn't sin. The serpent was a liar and the best lie is the one that LOOKS like the original.

Your point about death is mute also. Plants are alive and cease living when they are eaten. Your definition of sin is faulty

 

[Kemosloby]

No, God told them that if they ate from the tree of kog&e, they'd die the same day. Which they didn't. So that won't work.

There's no hint that they were going to be immortal in the story ─ only of God's unambiguous determination to prevent them doing so lest they become like him.

And the story gives no hint that 'death entered the world' at this time. Instead, God's threat ─ not only die, but die the same day ─ regarding the tree of kog&e makes no sense unless death were already a given. Otherwise Adam and Eve would have replied, "Die? What on earth does that mean? What are you talking about?" But they didn't.

That appears to borrow from the Mesopotamian tradition of attributing extraordinary lifespans to legendary heroes of the past, (such as their king-lists show).

They could have seen animals die and known about death. Humans were the only ones made in God's image, They were/are special. And if a day only meant our day, sunset to sunset, and the only light God created was sunlight, how is it there was light on the first day but no Sun until days later? So by the same reasoning a day may have more than the meaning sunset to sunset. A day in heaven could have been 1,000 years just as Peter describes. Was it fair that Adam and Eve didn't know a day was 1,000 years? You didn't see them complaining did you, or say to God, Kill me now, kill me now, I don't wanna live 1,000 years.

 

[Harikrish]

Well that should keep your hand in front of your face. Good to see scholars aren't straining themselves.

We leave the heavy lifting to scriptures. Before it was single verse with 5 pages of commentary. Today it's 5 pages of scriptures with a single page for unity of message. Who are the faithfuls here?

 

[Kemosloby]

We leave the heavy lifting to scriptures. Before it was single verse with 5 pages of commentary. Today it's 5 pages of scriptures with a single page for unity of message. Who are the faithfuls here?

You could be faithful to presenting errors either way. If that's all you have what choice do you have?

 

[Ingledsva]

A law or command is null and void if it is based on a false premise. God told Adam not to eat the forbidden fruit for in/on the day he ate it he would die. Eve consulted with the serpent who assured her she would not die but become like God, that God was lying. It turns out the serpent was right, Eve ate the fruit and did not die. So God was lying. Adam saw Eve was still alive after eating the forbidden fruit and he ate some too. The serpent was right their eyes were opened and even God confirmed they became like God. So the command was based on a lie, a false premise and therefore null and void.

Aren't you going a little too far on what is just a teaching parable about autonomous consciousness, duality, and responsibility?

*

 

[blü 2]

They could have seen animals die and known about death. Humans were the only ones made in God's image, They were/are special.

Not however to the extent that God made them immortal; if they were immortal then the fruit of a tree couldn't kill them, any more than it could kill God.

Nowhere is it suggested that they were immortal. In 3:22-3 it says clearly that they were not.

Further, if animals were already dying (as grass, and their cells, and their food were dying), then death had already 'entered the world'. Which of course it had ─ even in stories, it's innate in complex life.

And if a day only meant our day, sunset to sunset, and the only light God created was sunlight, how is it there was light on the first day but no Sun until days later?

Sloppy thinking on the authors' part.

So by the same reasoning a day may have more than the meaning sunset to sunset.

The story says nothing of the kind. Once again you're inventing things.

A day in heaven could have been 1,000 years just as Peter describes.

In the story they aren't in heaven. They're on earth, near the sources of the Tigris, the Euphrates, the Gihon and the Pishon.

The days on earth, even in stories, are 24 hours long.

 

[Kemosloby]

Not however to the extent that God made them immortal; if they were immortal then the fruit of a tree couldn't kill them, any more than it could kill God.

Nowhere is it suggested that they were immortal. In 3:22-3 it says clearly that they were not.

The days on earth, even in stories, are 24 hours long.

Immortal, never dying unless they ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Maybe they didn't know about death. Once they ate from the tree of knowledge they began to find out though. End of discussion, just going round and round..

 

[Ingledsva]

Yes there are many references to snakes and serpents in the bible. But there are only two reference to the Genesis serpent linked to Satan

A link between the serpent of Genesis 3 and Satan, or the devil, is given in Revelation 12:9 and 20:2: they are one and the same.


Rev 12:9 ‘And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world’

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Satan is God primary challenger. In Genesis Satan was disguised as a serpent.

Both when and in the day are referring to day and time. Eg. It will happen when you eat the fruit, not before and not after.
In/on the day you eat the fruit you will die. A year has many days. But in/on the day narrows it to that particular and specific day in the calendar year.
I try to use NIV which is the default and the KJV which some prefer because it is one of the oldest. The real work is textual criticism which biblical scholars are taught. I am a biblical scholar working on my thesis.

Satan is NOT the serpent in Genesis. It tells us this serpent is part of the earth creation.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which YHVH ELOHIYM had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

This is confirmed by Genesis 3:14.

Gen 3:14 And YHVH Elohiym said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Thus, per Gen 3:14 - a REAL snake, - not Satan. That Satan idea came from a different religion many-many years after Jesus was dead.

Serpent is derived from the Latin serpens which means a variety of low crawling creatures, and snakes. So they could be implying he lost his short legs and became a regular snake slithering on the ground forever.

However - more interesting to me, - is the fact that the word also means Sorcerers.

Do we have a representative of OTHER non-YHVH people on the earth?

Did a Pagan Serpent-Sorcerer try to entice YHVH's first followers away from him?

Does the story tell us he was turned into a snake for his troubles? Or just called a slimy snake for his actions?

*

 

[Faithofchristian]

You have to produce scriptures that prove your cast. Tbe scriptures I provided are for Genesis and from Genesis where a day is a 24 hour day taken from the original translation of the Hebrew word 'Yom'.
God warned Adam he would die in/on the day he ate the forbidden fruit. Or when he ate the fobidden fruit. We all know Adam and Eve did not die. They went in to have children, continued to worship God and taught their children to nake offerings to God. They also lived another 900 years after eating the fruit which was supposed to kill them in/on the day they ate it.
I am presenting my position using textual criticism and Occam Razors rule that states: the answer with the least number of assumption is the right answer.
Thank you for responding to my OP.

No God did not say in/on that day they eat of the tree they would die.
God said for in the day that you eat of it you shalt surely die.
God did not say when they would die.only in the day they eat of it they would surely die.how can that be seeing Adam lived 930 years.

God told Adam --> "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, You shalt not eat of it: for in the day that you eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"

God said nothing about dieing that self same day.
God said for in the day you eat of it, you shalt surely die.
In the day that Adam and Eve eat of the tree, that started the process of them dieing.
Common Sense Would tell you, that God did not mean that self same day Adam and Eve would die. Adam lived 930 years, Therefore God did not mean that same day they eat of the tree they would die.
But over a process of time they would die.

And you call yourself a scholar and you can't even figure that out What kind of scholar are you. That you can not figure things out that are so simple.

 

[blü 2]

Immortal, never dying unless they ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge.

The text says nothing of the kind. That's your own addition.

 

[Faithofchristian]

You have to produce scriptures that prove your cast. Tbe scriptures I provided are for Genesis and from Genesis where a day is a 24 hour day taken from the original translation of the Hebrew word 'Yom'.
God warned Adam he would die in/on the day he ate the forbidden fruit. Or when he ate the fobidden fruit. We all know Adam and Eve did not die. They went in to have children, continued to worship God and taught their children to nake offerings to God. They also lived another 900 years after eating the fruit which was supposed to kill them in/on the day they ate it.
I am presenting my position using textual criticism and Occam Razors rule that states: the answer with the least number of assumption is the right answer.
Thank you for responding to my OP.

You still haven't said what those two trees stood to Represent.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Harikrish has presented scriptural verses that challenge the Christian teachings of original sin and how death came into the world. The scriptures give us a different reading of the account in Genesis that led to the banishment of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden and their fall from grace. God's own words incriminate Him.
First the scriptural evidence.
We know God created 2 special trees in the garden of Eden.
Genesis 2:9 The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground--trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
God explains what each tree offered with a warning.
1. Tree of knowledge offered knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
2. The tree of life offered immortality, anyone eating from it would live forever.
Genesis 3:22The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.
According to genesis 2:16 God told Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil for when he ate it he would die.
The talking serpent corrects Eve understanding about the poisonous tree of knowledge.
Genesis 3:Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, "You must not eat from any tree in the garden"?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.""
4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Now we have two opposing choices Eve is faced with (Eve's dilemma). Who spoke the truth God or the serpent?
1. Eat the fobidden fruit and you will die according to God to Adam.
2. Eat from it and their eyes will be opened and they will be like God knowing good and evil according to the serpent to,Eve.
Eve ate the forbidden fruit and gave some to Adam.
1. The first thing they noticed was their eyes were opened exactly as the serpent told Eve.
Genesis 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
2. They did not die after eating the forbidden fruit. So God was lying.
Genesis 3:Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
3. God confirms in scriptures he was lying because he offers the same explanation as the serpent offered to Eve :" Eat from it and your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
God goes a step further and stops Adam and Eve from reaching out to take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
So not only were Adam send Eve created as mortals. They were now denied access to the tree of life which would have allowed them to live forever. They certainly did not die as God had warned, in fact he said they would continue to live and work which totally contradicted his warning that they would die if they ate the firbidden fruit.
Genesis 3: 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
So we know death did not come into the world because Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Death come into the world when God killed the first animals to make garments of skin for Adam and Eve and because he denied access to Adam and Eve the tree of life which would have allowed them to live forever.
Die definition, to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital physiological functions; become dead.
Adam and Eve did not die (to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital physiological functions; become dead).after eating the forbidden fruit.
Adam and Eve continued to worship and thank the lord for their children. They even taught theur children to make offerings to a God. And God continued to communicate with Adam and Eve and their family.
Genesis 4:1 Adam[a] made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, "With the help of the Lord I have brought forth[c] a man." 2 Later she gave birth to his brother Abel.

Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 4 And Abel also brought an offering"fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor.
6 Then the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it."
So why did God punish the serpent when the serpent was proven right. It was God that lied.
Genesis 3:So the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman,
But we know that curse never happened either because Satan is the ruler and God of the world.
2 Corinthians 4:4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don"t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don"t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
Satan is also called the "prince of the power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2. He is the "ruler of this world" in John 12:31. These titles and many more signify Satan"s capabilities. To say, for example, that Satan is the "prince of the power of the air" is to signify that in some way he rules over the world and the people in it.
Christians are taught that it the because of the original sin committed by Adam and Eve that death came into the world. But there are no supporting scriptures that support their Christian teaching. What we discovered instead is God repeatedly lying .
There is further evidence in scriptures to show God is bumbling genocidal maniac a liar and voyeur and a rapist who changes his mind after committing the crime.
If there are any Christians out there who are sufficiently well versed in the Bible who can rebut these scriptural allegations. Please produce the scriptural verses that challenge these scriptural allegations so we may all learn the two sided nature of scriptures and how it is possible for God to speak from both sides of his mouth.

I am wondering why the ^ above ^ post is so long when it can be easier to reply to a shorter posting.

No, God did Not lie because Adam and Eve died within that ' thousand year ' day time frame.
Please notice Genesis 5:5 and Genesis 5:27.

Mortal Adam and Eve were NEVER offered immortality, but offered 'everlasting life on Earth if they obeyed God'.
In other words, they could live forever on Earth (No where else) if they obeyed God and would Not break God's Law.

Before breaking God's Law A&E only knew or had knowledge of life.
After breaking of God's Law they would come to know the knowledge of death.
Adam ' returned ' back to where he came from the dust of the ground as per Genesis 3:19

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That's sort of dense that you cling to the opinion as fact. Adam and Eve had been eating freely from the tree of life, since it was never forbidden for them to do. After they ate the forbidden fruit God kicked them out of the garden of Eden, they no longer had access to the tree of life and so they died 930 some years later. In keeping with what God had said, in the day that you eat of it you will surely die.
2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

......and to me on a 'happy note' I like reading that mankind will see the return of the ' tree of life ' once again on Earth as mentioned at Revelation 22:2, and that the leaves from the tree of life will be for the healing of earth's nations.
That is why we are invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come. Come and bring healing benefits to earth's nations during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You still haven't said what those two trees stood to Represent.

I'd like to take the liberty to comment that to me the 'tree of life' stood for 'everlasting life on Earth'.
Everlasting life on Earth as long as one did Not break God's Law.
The 'tree of knowledge of good and bad' stood for the Law of the Land.
It was as if God put up a No trespassing sign on His tree. (perhaps because that tree was like poison /the death penalty).
Adam and Eve only knew life, or had knowledge of life, but by breaking God's Law they gained knowledge of death.
By breaking the Law it was as if Adam was taking the Law out of God's hands and placing the Law into man's hands.
Thus, Adam set up People Rule as superior to God's Rule. Mankind's history now shows man's law can't bring Peace on Earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If Jesus had spoken truthfully and plainly people might have understood him. But instead, he only spoke in parables that no one understood which was the primary reason they rejected and crucified him.
John 16:25 "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

First of all, a parable is an illustration or a story and Not a puzzle.
For example: the parable or the story about the neighborly good Samaritan was a word picture story, or illustrative story, so that we can remember that we should broaden out in showing love, or widen out in showing love to someone in distress.
Secondly, Jesus does explain or expound to his follower about his illustrations as per Mark 4:34; Matthew 13:36.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I'd like to take the liberty to comment that to me the 'tree of life' stood for 'everlasting life on Earth'.
Everlasting life on Earth as long as one did Not break God's Law.
The 'tree of knowledge of good and bad' stood for the Law of the Land.
It was as if God put up a No trespassing sign on His tree. (perhaps because that tree was like poison /the death penalty).
Adam and Eve only knew life, or had knowledge of life, but by breaking God's Law they gained knowledge of death.
By breaking the Law it was as if Adam was taking the Law out of God's hands and placing the Law into man's hands.
Thus, Adam set up People Rule as superior to God's Rule. Mankind's history now shows man's law can't bring Peace on Earth.

You have there two trees, The tree of Life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Satan the Serpent likes to mix good words with evil words, making evil words seem good, As he did with Eve. Had Eve rightly divided the word of Truth from the evil words of Satan.
Therefore Satan Repsents the tree of good and evil.
Christ Jesus Repsents the tree of Life.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You have there two trees, The tree of Life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Satan the Serpent likes to mix good words with evil words, making evil words seem good, As he did with Eve. Had Eve rightly divided the word of Truth from the evil words of Satan.
Therefore Satan Repsents the tree of good and evil.
Christ Jesus Repsents the tree of Life.

I suppose one could rightly say Jesus represents the tree of life because of Jesus mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on Earth according to Revelation 22:2.
Jesus will fulfill God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed according to Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18. Blessed with the benefits of healing for earth's nations during Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth when Earth will become a beautiful paradisical Earth as described at Isaiah 35.

 

[Faithofchristian]

First of all, a parable is an illustration or a story and Not a puzzle.
For example: the parable or the story about the neighborly good Samaritan was a word picture story, or illustrative story, so that we can remember that we should broaden out in showing love, or widen out in showing love to someone in distress.
Secondly, Jesus does explain or expound to his follower about his illustrations as per Mark 4:34; Matthew 13:36.

First of all a Parable is comparing something to something else.

 

[Kenny]

They could have seen animals die and known about death. Humans were the only ones made in God's image, They were/are special. And if a day only meant our day, sunset to sunset, and the only light God created was sunlight, how is it there was light on the first day but no Sun until days later? So by the same reasoning a day may have more than the meaning sunset to sunset. A day in heaven could have been 1,000 years just as Peter describes. Was it fair that Adam and Eve didn't know a day was 1,000 years? You didn't see them complaining did you, or say to God, Kill me now, kill me now, I don't wanna live 1,000 years.

Not to mention that man, today, is trying to live as long as possible and the reality that God created man in "The Light" for God is light "1 John 1:5" and the light was the life of man.

At the speed of light, time is irrelevant.