• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

A Challenge To All Creationists

However, technically, it could have been eternal matter, sure.

The Genesis version is an over-simplified account which does not technically explain all the steps of "creating" the Creation. It does not explain that in order to "create" God must first organize materials and then form those ingredients into a new entity (organizing and forming are the two inherent parts that must be done to "create" in the first place).

It is kind of like me saying that I created a cake. The cake is new...but the ingredients from which I made the cake is not.

Yes....I made a cake from other ingredients, but I didn't create those ingredients, nor did I plant the seeds, water them, and harvest them, nor did I process other materials that I used to "bake" the cake. All of this would have taken me a lot longer than the thirty minutes that it took me to mix the cake together and bake it.

And by the way.....eternal element.....has no beginning and no end....but it can be reconstructed over and over again into a new entity (having a beginning) and then deconstructed (having an end).
 
Last edited:

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
The Genesis version is an over-simplified account which does not technically explain all the steps of "creating" the Creation. It does not explain that in order to "create" God must first organize materials and then form those ingredients into a new entity (organizing and forming are the two inherent parts that must be done to "create" in the first place).

It is kind of like me saying that I created a cake. The cake is new...but the ingredients from which I made the cake is not.

Yes....I made a cake from other ingredients, but I didn't create those ingredients, nor did I plant the seeds, water them, and harvest them, nor did I process other materials that I used to "bake" the cake. All of this would have taken me a lot longer than the thirty minutes that it took me to mix the cake together and bake it.

And by the way.....eternal element.....has no beginning and no end....but it can be reconstructed over and over again into a new entity (having a beginning) and then deconstructed (having an end).

Hi
I'm not entirely sure what you're implying. I believe in the Creation timeline that is presented in the Bible; ie very quickly.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I have asked a question you can't answer, proving you don' know what you ar talking about.

No you asked an irrelevant question as no model nor mechanic under evolution does this.

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?




Not interest. If you could you would haved put it in the post.

You again demonstrate you are lazy. Besides my point was I provided examples for speciation which you confused with natural selection.



All you did was given an opinion with absolutely no scientific evidence. It is clear that you do not understand "scientific evidence." Let me help you out---It ain't opinions.

Actually if you looked up Peppered Moths you would see the darker coloured ones have been more successful in urban areas than lighter ones.

Still true

Nope.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
The classical notion of the Creation (taken from the Bible)---was that the earth was originally organized and formed from pre-existing material (eternal matter) and these "ingredients" were reorganized and formed into the sphere that we now know.

That is the classical view of liberal theology, It is not the classical view of conservative theology.

It wasn't until the Dark Ages that the Latin concept of "creatio ex nihil" (meaning the creation was made out of nothing) came to be. Insidently the idea that the earth was flat also came out of the Dark Ages---even though earlier generations and cultures were sea-faring travelers who traveled AROUND the world and back.

Do you know why they were called the "dark ages?" During that time, all educated people knew the earth was not flat.

The classical hof the Bible is that God spoke the universe into being from nothing---ex nihil

No you asked an irrelevant question as no model nor mechanic under evolution does this.

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Answer---What makes you think I have ever beaten my wide?

You again demonstrate you are lazy. Besides my point was I provided examples for speciation which you confused with natural selection.

First, speciation does not result in a new species. Second I ask you to give me an example of natural selection being the cause of a change of species. You have changed the subject, because you can't provide of natural selection causing a change of species. You also can't provide an exampel of a mutation being the mechanism for a change of species. Showing you do not understand genetics and are willing to accept what evolution scientists say by faith alone. How sad.

Actually if you looked up Peppered Moths you would see the darker coloured ones have been more successful in urban areas than lighter ones.

It doesn't matter, they remained pepper moths. Do you really not understand that for evoultion to be true THE SPECIES MUST CHANGE?
 

McBell

Unbound
One day I hope I remember that evolutionist NEVER offer any evidence to support the TOE.

Have a nice day.
This reveals quite a bit about you.

especially given all the evidence presented in this thread alone that you ignore and or deny.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
When they find the fossils of a rabbit or dog during the time of the Cambrian Explosion, make sure you let us know, OK.

When you find a fossil linking them get back to me.

BTW, maybe read this, and maybe even spend some time checking out the links on the studies: Speciation - Wikipedia

I have quit reading evo links. They NEVER provide any evidence. Prove me wrong and post the evidence they posted.

I notice you have not provided an example of natural selection causing a change of species. I wonder way. Actually I don't wonder, I know.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Wrong.

Speciation is the term for the process where a new species arise from a previous one.

"Speciation is the evolutionary process by which biological populations evolve to become distinct species." Wikipedia

"Speciation is a lineage-splitting event that produces two or more separate species." Berkeley (link for you to read: Defining speciation)

It is used that way but in speciation the species never changes. The fruit flies remained fruit flies.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Then you will have remembered it inaccurately. And that will be a shame. You could have learned something.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

The proof of a theory is in the evidence,

Show me one example of natural selection being he mechanism for a change of species.

If you want to be a skepticthinker, apply it to the TOE.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
This reveals quite a bit about you.

especially given all the evidence presented in this thread alone that you ignore and or deny.

Thanks for confirming that you do not know what evidence is. Hint. it is not opinions or rhetoric.

To show you don't understand evidence, post the evidence for natural selection being he mechanism for a change of species.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Here are the different Latin terms addressing the Creation:
creatio ex materia "Creation out of some pre-existent, eternal matter."
creatio ex nihilo "Creation out of nothing."
creatio ex deo "Creation out of the being of God."

ex nihilo nihil fit "Out of nothing--nothing comes."
Creatio continua "Ongoing divine creation."


The Classical period in World History [600BC-600AD] understood the Creation was organized from pre-existing matter (creatio ex materia). This included the general belief of the Jews and all the other Nations around them (including Babylon, Meds/Persia, Greek, and Roman nations). Those in this time period, believed that God (or the Gods) created the earth from pre-existing materials---(creatio ex materia) showing that they were true "Creationists" (in the true form of the word) before that word was "coined" to mean something else such as creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing) or creatio ex deo (creation out of the being of God).

Latin speaking Constantine [The Holy Roman Emperor Constantine 280-337AD] departed from the Classical belief about the Creation.....substituting the new Latin creatio ex nihilo "creation out of nothing" concept to end the former Classical period. Constantine as well as Muhammad [560- 632AD in the Quran] taught this new belief, both of whom claimed themselves to be "Creationists." [The NEW Creationists]

Creationists
Old version: creatio ex materia
New version: creatio ex nihilo


Today most people divide themselves between either a Creationist or a Evolutionist belief system. However, these two PRESENT-DAY THEORIES should be broken down still further such as:
  • Creationism
  • Intelligent Design
  • Theistic Evolution
  • Atheistic Evolution
Creationism
The people most likely to identify themselves as “creationists” seem usually to endorse some or all of the following claims:

  • There is a God.
  • The world was made in a period of six, twenty-four hour days.
  • The world is only a few thousand years old.
  • God specially intervened to create the life forms on earth, without using prior, extinct life forms to do so.
  • The majority viewpoint in the natural sciences on the age of the world and the origin of present-day life forms is mistaken.

Intelligent Design
The people most likely to identify themselves as advocates of “intelligent design” seem usually to make the following claim:

  • The world (either the whole cosmos or just the life on earth) shows evidence of a scientific nature that suggests it was intelligently designed.
Most advocates also seem to hold the following proposition:

  • God exists and is the intelligent designer of the world.
This view, however, is not essential to their position.


Theistic Evolution
The people most likely to identify themselves as “theistic evolutionists” seem usually to endorse some or all of the following claims:

  • There is a God.
  • The world developed over a longer period of time than six, twenty-four hour days.
  • The world is much more than a few thousand years old.
  • God used prior, extinct life forms to produce the life forms we see today.
  • The majority viewpoint in the natural sciences on the age of the world and the origin of present-day life forms is correct.

Atheistic Evolution
The people most likely to identify themselves as “atheistic evolutionists” seem usually to endorse some or all of the following claims:

  • There is no God or, at least, we do not have good reason to believe that there is a God.
  • The world developed over a longer period of time than six, twenty-four hour days.
  • The world is much more than a few thousand years old.
  • The life forms we see today arose from prior, extinct life forms.
  • The majority viewpoint in the natural sciences on the age of the world and the origin of present-day life forms is correct.

All of that is almost interesting but irrelevant if the Bible version is accurate. You have offered may opinions that do not agree with what the Bible says. Until they can offer some evidence for their opinions, I will stick with the Bible.

Well I guess that THEORY (about the earth being flat) was taught to us because THEY were not there and did not know what THEY were talking about!! lol

All educated people at that eime kneew the earth wa snot flat.

When a person does not understand the ancient doctrines of the Biblical text----a person is forced to grasp for present-day THEORIES to explain what they find "unexplainable" in the ancient text. When people do this....they end up misrepresenting those doctrines by a NEW CREATION of manmade THEORIES gained from the present day.

Ancient eastern thinkers and present-day western thinkers.....don't see the world in the same light. Eastern thinkers use imagery (having a broad use of figurative language) and western thinkers use linguistics (understanding things in literal terms). This is why western thinkers take the Bible message to be literal and miss the overlying message that was intended. The Ancient spoke in imagery and then add to this.....a Parable! Watch out for literal---western thinkers!!

The correct way to think is that the Bible has both literal and figurative language and when presented as an allegory, all allegories are based on a literal, historical event.

John 1:1-4; 10-14
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The above Parable---is a prime example:

That is not a parable.

1). Is God using "words" to create? creatio ex nihilo "Creation out of nothing."
2). Or is God using HIS WORD (Jesus Christ) to create? God directed His Son Jesus Christ to create the earth. [Create refers to organizing and forming something out of pre-existent materials]. creatio ex materia "Creation out of some pre-existent, eternal matter."

Again almost intereseting but not Biblical.

Heb 11:3 - By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

That verse said we accept that by faith, which is true. However those who do not beliee it, also accept wha they believe by faith alone, just like we do.

Muhammad [560-632AD] would say.....God is using words.....God says "be" and it is. Far from it that God has a SON---because God does not beget nor is he begotten...he is "uncreated." (Nothing but confused gobbly goopy talk here).

Not for those who understand it.

]Now Muhammad reads the above and he comes up with this:

"Surat Al-An'am [verse 73] - And it is He who created the heavens and earth in truth. And the day He says, "Be," and it is, His word is the truth. And His is the dominion..."

And yet.....after Muhammad read the above parable (from John) he didn't realize that Jesus Christ had anything to do with the Creation (or our need for Him as a Savior). Muhammad totally missed the "overall message" that was there to be understood!!! See how just a little sprinkling of false theories---confuse the WHOLE message?

That is why we need to accept the Biblical version of creation to be literal. Although there are some allegories sprinkled in.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I notice you have not provided an example of natural selection causing a change of species. I wonder way. Actually I don't wonder, I know.
Maybe actually try clicking on the link as there is scientific evidence for you to see from studies that have been done.

However, as we've seen in the past, you really have no inclination to do the research, much preferring ignorance on such matters. Hey, that's your choice, and you have a right to it, granted.

BTW, ever have the flu or catch a cold? Any idea how this relates to evolution?

Hint: viruses mutate.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Here are the different Latin terms addressing the Creation:
creatio ex materia "Creation out of some pre-existent, eternal matter."
creatio ex nihilo "Creation out of nothing."
creatio ex deo "Creation out of the being of God."

ex nihilo nihil fit "Out of nothing--nothing comes."
Creatio continua "Ongoing divine creation."


The Classical period in World History [600BC-600AD] understood the Creation was organized from pre-existing matter (creatio ex materia). This included the general belief of the Jews and all the other Nations around them (including Babylon, Meds/Persia, Greek, and Roman nations). Those in this time period, believed that God (or the Gods) created the earth from pre-existing materials---(creatio ex materia) showing that they were true "Creationists" (in the true form of the word) before that word was "coined" to mean something else such as creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing) or creatio ex deo (creation out of the being of God).

Latin speaking Constantine [The Holy Roman Emperor Constantine 280-337AD] departed from the Classical belief about the Creation.....substituting the new Latin creatio ex nihilo "creation out of nothing" concept to end the former Classical period. Constantine as well as Muhammad [560- 632AD in the Quran] taught this new belief, both of whom claimed themselves to be "Creationists." [The NEW Creationists]

Creationists
Old version: creatio ex materia
New version: creatio ex nihilo


Today most people divide themselves between either a Creationist or a Evolutionist belief system. However, these two PRESENT-DAY THEORIES should be broken down still further such as:
  • Creationism
  • Intelligent Design
  • Theistic Evolution
  • Atheistic Evolution
Creationism
The people most likely to identify themselves as “creationists” seem usually to endorse some or all of the following claims:

  • There is a God.
  • The world was made in a period of six, twenty-four hour days.
  • The world is only a few thousand years old.
  • God specially intervened to create the life forms on earth, without using prior, extinct life forms to do so.
  • The majority viewpoint in the natural sciences on the age of the world and the origin of present-day life forms is mistaken.

Intelligent Design
The people most likely to identify themselves as advocates of “intelligent design” seem usually to make the following claim:

  • The world (either the whole cosmos or just the life on earth) shows evidence of a scientific nature that suggests it was intelligently designed.
Most advocates also seem to hold the following proposition:

  • God exists and is the intelligent designer of the world.
This view, however, is not essential to their position.


Theistic Evolution
The people most likely to identify themselves as “theistic evolutionists” seem usually to endorse some or all of the following claims:

  • There is a God.
  • The world developed over a longer period of time than six, twenty-four hour days.
  • The world is much more than a few thousand years old.
  • God used prior, extinct life forms to produce the life forms we see today.
  • The majority viewpoint in the natural sciences on the age of the world and the origin of present-day life forms is correct.

Atheistic Evolution
The people most likely to identify themselves as “atheistic evolutionists” seem usually to endorse some or all of the following claims:

  • There is no God or, at least, we do not have good reason to believe that there is a God.
  • The world developed over a longer period of time than six, twenty-four hour days.
  • The world is much more than a few thousand years old.
  • The life forms we see today arose from prior, extinct life forms.
  • The majority viewpoint in the natural sciences on the age of the world and the origin of present-day life forms is correct.

Well I guess that THEORY (about the earth being flat) was taught to us because THEY were not there and did not know what THEY were talking about!! lol

When a person does not understand the ancient doctrines of the Biblical text----a person is forced to grasp for present-day THEORIES to explain what they find "unexplainable" in the ancient text. When people do this....they end up misrepresenting those doctrines by a NEW CREATION of manmade THEORIES gained from the present day.

Ancient eastern thinkers and present-day western thinkers.....don't see the world in the same light. Eastern thinkers use imagery (having a broad use of figurative language) and western thinkers use linguistics (understanding things in literal terms). This is why western thinkers take the Bible message to be literal and miss the overlying message that was intended. The Ancient spoke in imagery and then add to this.....a Parable! Watch out for literal---western thinkers!!

John 1:1-4; 10-14
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The above Parable---is a prime example:

1). Is God using "words" to create? creatio ex nihilo "Creation out of nothing."
2). Or is God using HIS WORD (Jesus Christ) to create? God directed His Son Jesus Christ to create the earth. [Create refers to organizing and forming something out of pre-existent materials]. creatio ex materia "Creation out of some pre-existent, eternal matter."

Muhammad [560-632AD] would say.....God is using words.....God says "be" and it is. Far from it that God has a SON---because God does not beget nor is he begotten...he is "uncreated." (Nothing but confused gobbly goopy talk here).

Now Muhammad reads the above and he comes up with this:

"Surat Al-An'am [verse 73] - And it is He who created the heavens and earth in truth. And the day He says, "Be," and it is, His word is the truth. And His is the dominion..."

And yet.....after Muhammad read the above parable (from John) he didn't realize that Jesus Christ had anything to do with the Creation (or our need for Him as a Savior). Muhammad totally missed the "overall message" that was there to be understood!!! See how just a little sprinkling of false theories---confuse the WHOLE message?
Plagiarism is against RF rules and the law. I suggest you remove it.


.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Heb 11:3 and In chapter 1 of Genesis "God said" is used 8 times.
I think you misunderstood me. I want to know where it says that God created it out of nothing.

You said, "The classical hof the Bible is that God spoke the universe into being from nothing---ex nihil"

Ex nihil. From Nothing. Chapter and verse that says that it was nothing.

For instance, the verse you referenced, Heb 11:3 says, "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."

Something invisible is something, but it is not nothing. Here it says God created it from something invisible, not that God created it from nothing.

So, chapter and verse that God created it from nothing.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
It is used that way but in speciation the species never changes. The fruit flies remained fruit flies.
The word "speciation" is a technical term to signify the event of a speciation, i.e. a species is created. That's what the word means. You might consider the changes of a fruit fly of not being a new species, i.e. a non-speciation event, but you can't say that speciation doesn't produce a new species, it's like saying eating is not eating. The word itself "speciation" means "event that produces a new species."
 
Top