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A Challenge To All Creationists

Reggie Miller

Well-Known Member
Looks like someone needs to ask Reggie M. what his definition of "transitional fossil" is.

This isn't rocket science. From wikipedia:

A transitional fossil is any fossilized remains of a life form that exhibits traits common to both an ancestral group and its derived descendant group.[1] This is especially important where the descendant group is sharply differentiated by gross anatomy and mode of living from the ancestral group

Transitional fossil - Wikipedia
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Matthew didn't interpret. He wrote what God inspired him to write.
Again, you just proven to me that you don't know much about either Isaiah or the gospel of Matthew.

If you know anything about the OT Isaiah, it was written in Hebrew, not Greek. And the one that the gospel quoted was based on the Greek translation, the Septuagint, not the Hebrew original.

The Hebrew version say almah "young woman", not betulah "virgin". The Greek version say parthenos "virgin". And the fact that it used the Hebrew word harah "conceived", "pregnant" or "with child" in conjunction with almah it mean the "young woman is with child". The word harah is the same word used to describe Hagar's pregnancy in Genesis 16:11 -

Genesis 16:11 transliteration said:
hinach harah veyoladet ben vekarat shemo Yishma'el

Even the KJV translation of Genesis 16:11, translate harah to "thou art with child...":

Genesis 16:11 KJV said:
Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael...

Hence, harah means a woman is currently "pregnant".

Almah denoted only a young woman, not whether she is a virgin or not. And harah indicated she wasn't a virgin.

The gospel used a Greek translation of Isaiah's verse, and that understandable when you consider the gospel itself was written in Greek, not Hebrew. The author don't require to translate from Hebrew to Greek when he quoted the passage.

Matthew didn't interpret. He wrote what God inspired him to write.

Two things that are problematic with this statements:

One. This is just your faith saying that. You don't know if the author wrote that on his own or that God tell him to write it.

The former the is more likely, the later is merely wishful fantasy.

And no real scholar would say such absurd thing without backing up something more than "God told me so".

Two. As I said previously (in past replies), the gospel was written anonymously. No one know who wrote this gospel of "Matthew".

The name "Matthew" was assigned to gospel by someone from the 2nd century CE, as were the other gospels.

If Matthew was indeed the author, plus an apostle, then as an "eyewitness", why write it in the 3rd person view and not 1st person view?

And why wait 40 years or more, to write this gospel?

If Matthew was the author, he could have written this gospel, almost immediately after Jesus' death and resurrection. Or even in 5 years or 10 years. But no, this gospel was written some time between 75 and 95 BCE. This like writing two to 3 generations later.

So no, I don't think Matthew wrote this gospel. And this tell me several things:
  1. Whoever wrote the gospel wasn't an eyewitness.
  2. It dependent on earlier sources, like traditions or like an earlier gospel. And the gospel of Matthew seemed to rely on an earlier gospel (some, not all), attributed to Mark (60 - 75 CE).
  3. The narrative of Mary's pregnancy and Jesus' birth, such as the magi and Herod's order to massacre boys of Bethlehem seemed made up. And let's not forget the story are almost completely different from Luke's version of the birth. In Luke's version there were never in danger or have threats hanging over their heads, and no mention of them leaving Bethlehem for Egypt. But the gospel of Luke has its own flaws and inconsistencies and inaccuracies.
I don't know about you or your background, but can I ask your background on ancient literature?

I am not asking if you can read ancient languages, because I know that your education in that areas would be beyond yours (as well as my capabilities), so I would be satisfied if you have read them in the English translations.

I have range of books, my personal collection, and they include Greek and Latin, Sumerian and Babylonian, Egyptian, Hebrew, Ugaritic and even Hittite literature. Most of them are of religious and mythological themes. The only historical literature are from Greek and Roman authors, but I have the tendencies enjoy ancient myths, legends and folklore because I have always being interested in storytelling. And the other parts are I do some researches for my websites:
  • Timeless Myths
  • Dark Mirrors of Heaven

I was going to website on Egyptian and Middle Eastern myths, but never got around to publishing it on web server. But I still have notes that I have collected.

My points is that i can recognise literal and metaphors (or allegories or similes), fabrications or inventions, when I see them.

And the part about massacre in Bethlehem (in Matthew) or the host of angels appearing before shepherds (in Luke), do sounds like they were invented, to exaggerate the importance of Jesus' birth.

For instance, the massacre only appeared in the gospel of Matthew, and no where else, and I am not just talking about the omission in the gospel of Luke. I am referring to there being no historical records and archaeological evidences.

Flavius Josephus for instance, wrote extensively about Herod the Great and his family, including his successors. But the massacre?

Nothing...zilch...

And Josephus write plenty about murders, betrayals and scandals about Herod and his family, and yet when it come to the massacre in Bethlehem.

The most likely reason for this, is because it didn't happen.

And Josephus' works were were written roughly around the same time as the two gospels. And Josephus, unlike the gospels authors, had better access to official records than they, because he come from noble or aristocratic family, and even have tie to the temple, before the Roman destroyed in 70 CE. In fact, Josephus got involved in politics and was once fighting against the Romans, before he was captured. He became hostage and later friend of Titus, son of emperor Vespasian; Titus succeeded his father later. So Josephus would have both Roman and Jewish records.

Do I trust Josephus' accounts on Herod? Well, preferred to walk on skeptical side, and say that there might be some exaggerations, but not as exaggerated as that found in the two gospels regarding to Jesus' birth.
 

Davarr

Member
Ah, evolution. A masterpiece of myths, tailor made for those angry at Yahweh. Here is an argument for creationism: people who waste their limited biological existence seeking an answer they know they will not find. What animal does this? What drives the evo-human to come and expend their vital energy in a Sumo match that can never end? Is it pure egotism? Does it need to be proven right? What a strange species, to exchange time is can never recover for a row that means nothing. After all, if there is no God, we all end up as decomposing carbon. Under those circumstances, I'd rather do something fun with this brief flash of consciousness, before my systems fail, and my neuromatrix blanks out forever.
Here is something for the materialist crowd to contemplate. According to the liturgy of the Science Priests, a meteor hit Vera Cruz and wiped out the dinosaurs. A question: is the Earth a discreet or non-discreet system, with regards to evolution? That is, is our biosphere a part of the whole universe, or limited to our atmosphere? If the former, please show: if the latter, then you have a problem, because evolution was favoring a crappy animal until an exogenous actor changed the program. The rise of humans-clearly, the most powerful animal-was an error. This discounts any credibility to a guiding process or structured program. I am interested to see the devotees of Science work on this one.
One thing, on the Gospels: there is no Gospel of Jesus. That should raise some eyebrows. I mean, why not? That settles the whole thing. Why are they 'according to'? Why in the Revelation is John told to 'write down what you see?' wouldn't it be more effective to just tell what was happening in a logical manner? Better yet: why didn't Yahweh make a monolith, like 2001, where you could just walk up, touch it, and know all truth?
The answer is that Jesus wants faith; it is vital to Him, and to us. Faith is only possible when you don't know everything. That is the reason this whole mess exists. He gave us tale to follow, replete with plausible deniability. The telelogical goal is to create real love; that is why He made us. That can only come through choice and trust. Ergo, you are never going to see an empirical truth in the Way. Jesus hid some of the truth from us, and withheld critical data in many places. Now, logic does reveal the truth in the Scripture; but it requires that you accept some givens to complete. Since some of the events take place in other dimensions, it will never be a matter of scientific review. But is is always fun to grapple over the insane concoctions of Darwin's adherents to keep the skill set sharpened.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Ah, evolution. A masterpiece of myths, tailor made for those angry at Yahweh. Here is an argument for creationism: people who waste their limited biological existence seeking an answer they know they will not find. What animal does this? What drives the evo-human to come and expend their vital energy in a Sumo match that can never end? Is it pure egotism? Does it need to be proven right? What a strange species, to exchange time is can never recover for a row that means nothing. After all, if there is no God, we all end up as decomposing carbon. Under those circumstances, I'd rather do something fun with this brief flash of consciousness, before my systems fail, and my neuromatrix blanks out forever.
Here is something for the materialist crowd to contemplate. According to the liturgy of the Science Priests, a meteor hit Vera Cruz and wiped out the dinosaurs. A question: is the Earth a discreet or non-discreet system, with regards to evolution? That is, is our biosphere a part of the whole universe, or limited to our atmosphere? If the former, please show: if the latter, then you have a problem, because evolution was favoring a crappy animal until an exogenous actor changed the program. The rise of humans-clearly, the most powerful animal-was an error. This discounts any credibility to a guiding process or structured program. I am interested to see the devotees of Science work on this one.
One thing, on the Gospels: there is no Gospel of Jesus. That should raise some eyebrows. I mean, why not? That settles the whole thing. Why are they 'according to'? Why in the Revelation is John told to 'write down what you see?' wouldn't it be more effective to just tell what was happening in a logical manner? Better yet: why didn't Yahweh make a monolith, like 2001, where you could just walk up, touch it, and know all truth?
The answer is that Jesus wants faith; it is vital to Him, and to us. Faith is only possible when you don't know everything. That is the reason this whole mess exists. He gave us tale to follow, replete with plausible deniability. The telelogical goal is to create real love; that is why He made us. That can only come through choice and trust. Ergo, you are never going to see an empirical truth in the Way. Jesus hid some of the truth from us, and withheld critical data in many places. Now, logic does reveal the truth in the Scripture; but it requires that you accept some givens to complete. Since some of the events take place in other dimensions, it will never be a matter of scientific review. But is is always fun to grapple over the insane concoctions of Darwin's adherents to keep the skill set sharpened.
*Sigh* Another poster taken with the sound of their own voice. Oh well.

Oh yes, just you don't make the mistake again, the meteor said to have wiped out the dinosaurs didn't hit Vera Cruz, but the Yucatan peninsula.

map.jpg


.
 
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Reggie Miller

Well-Known Member
*Sigh* Another poster taken with the sound of their own voice. Oh well.

Oh yes, just you don't make the mistake again, the meteor said to have wiped out the dinosaurs didn't hit Vera Cruz, but the Yucatan peninsula.

map.jpg


.

No different from a poster taken by the sounds of the voices of "learned" men looking for an alternative to God's judgement to come.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
*Sigh* Another poster taken with the sound of their own voice. Oh well.

Sounds like someone else in this forum.

Oh yes, just you don't make the mistake again, the meteor said to have wiped out the dinosaurs didn't hit Vera Cruz, but the Yucatan peninsula.

map.jpg


.

Once upon a time..........and they live happily ever after.

Anyone who believes their is evidence for that fairy tale is living in Darwin's lala land. Do you really not understand if that is true, all living things, animal and plant life would haved died also?
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Which is quote-mining as neither holds the same conclusion you attempt to justify by quoting them.

They both said basically the same thing. If you doubt it look up what Gould said and compare them. Quote mining is only objectionable to thoe whose view is show to be false by them.

It is amusing to see copy/paste hacks not read their sources and fail realize that both support evolution.

What is not only more amusing, but curious is why not even one of you evos has taken me up on the offer. I have to assume they finally understood what evidence is, and realized what was offered as evidence was only an opinion. Why don't you be the first to cut and paste anything your experts offer as evidence. I promise not to laugh.

Read your own citations and their views. You have done nothing but quote-mined and created a strawman from two proponents of evolution not creationism. Also since I provided the source you used which is not the books from either person you claim to cite I justified my assertion with evidence.

You are wrong, The quote from Mayr came from a book he wrote, which referenced in another post.


Let me know when you can figure out the difference between an assertion and justification.

The quote itself is as follows.

"From Darwin's day to the present, there has been a heated controversy over whether macroevolution is nothing but an unbroken continuation of microevolution, as Darwin and his followers had
claimed, or rather is disconnected from microevolution, as asserted by his opponents, and that it must be explained by a different set of theories. According to this view, there is a definite
discontinuity between the species level and that of the higher taxa. The reason why this controversy has not been fully settled is because there seems to be an astonishing conflict between theory and observation. According to Darwinian theory, evolution is a populational phenomenon and should therefore be gradual and continuous. This should be true not only for microevolution but
also for macroevolution and for the transition between the two. Alas, this seems to be in conflict with observation. Wherever we look at the living biota, whether at the level of the higher taxa or
even at that of the species, discontinuities are overwhelmingly frequent. Among living taxa there is no intermediacy between whales and terrestrial mammals, nor between reptiles and either birds or mammals. All 30 phyla of animals are separated from each other by a gap. There seems to be a large gap between the flowering plants (angiosperms) and their nearest relatives. The discontinuities are even more striking in the fossil record. New species usually appear in the fossil record suddenly, not connected with their ancestors by a series of intermediates. Indeed there are rather few cases of continuous series of gradually evolving species. How can this seeming contradiction be explained? At first sight, there seems to be no method available to explain macroevolutionary phenomena by microevolutionary theories. But should it nevertheless be possible to expand the microevolutionary processes into macroevolutionary ones? And furthermore, can it be shown that macroevolutionary theories and laws are fully consistent with the microevolutionary findings? The possibility of such an explanation was shown by a number of authors during the evolutionary synthesis, particularly by Rensch and Simpson. They successfully developed Darwiniangeneralizations about macroevolution without having to analyze any correlated changes in gene frequencies. This approach was consistent with the modern definition of evolution as a change in adaptedness and diversity, rather than as a change in gene fre-quencies, as suggested by the reductionists. To put it in a nutshell, in order to prove that there is an unbroken continuity between macro- and microevolution, the Darwinians have to demonstrate that seemingly very different "types" are nothing but the end points in a continuous series of evolving populations.

Source: The book itself pdf page 223-4 (top left) https://sunsetridgemsbiology.wikisp...tionis.pdf/245942423/mayr-whatevolutionis.pdf

The context matters as the book is not addressing your creationism but views within evolutionary theory that are decades old. Read your sources.

That is not a quote from Mayr's book, which is the subject of this discussion.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
But that doesn't mean there are no transitional fossils. As Gould noted, transitionals between larger taxonomic groups are "abundant".

What Gould says indicates intermediate fossils are rare. If evolution was true, the great majority of fossils would be intermedates. Gould said some were transitional to save fact, but there are none.

And FYI, there wouldn't be a "series of intermediates" between a parental species and its newly-evolved species, as we know from observation.

FYI, if their is not fossils linking them, you can't use them as evidence of evolution. That is a great big DUUH
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Ah, evolution. A masterpiece of myths, tailor made for those angry at Yahweh. Here is an argument for creationism: people who waste their limited biological existence seeking an answer they know they will not find. What animal does this? What drives the evo-human to come and expend their vital energy in a Sumo match that can never end? Is it pure egotism? Does it need to be proven right? What a strange species, to exchange time is can never recover for a row that means nothing. After all, if there is no God, we all end up as decomposing carbon. Under those circumstances, I'd rather do something fun with this brief flash of consciousness, before my systems fail, and my neuromatrix blanks out forever.
Here is something for the materialist crowd to contemplate. According to the liturgy of the Science Priests, a meteor hit Vera Cruz and wiped out the dinosaurs. A question: is the Earth a discreet or non-discreet system, with regards to evolution? That is, is our biosphere a part of the whole universe, or limited to our atmosphere? If the former, please show: if the latter, then you have a problem, because evolution was favoring a crappy animal until an exogenous actor changed the program. The rise of humans-clearly, the most powerful animal-was an error. This discounts any credibility to a guiding process or structured program. I am interested to see the devotees of Science work on this one.
One thing, on the Gospels: there is no Gospel of Jesus. That should raise some eyebrows. I mean, why not? That settles the whole thing. Why are they 'according to'? Why in the Revelation is John told to 'write down what you see?' wouldn't it be more effective to just tell what was happening in a logical manner? Better yet: why didn't Yahweh make a monolith, like 2001, where you could just walk up, touch it, and know all truth?
The answer is that Jesus wants faith; it is vital to Him, and to us. Faith is only possible when you don't know everything. That is the reason this whole mess exists. He gave us tale to follow, replete with plausible deniability. The telelogical goal is to create real love; that is why He made us. That can only come through choice and trust. Ergo, you are never going to see an empirical truth in the Way. Jesus hid some of the truth from us, and withheld critical data in many places. Now, logic does reveal the truth in the Scripture; but it requires that you accept some givens to complete. Since some of the events take place in other dimensions, it will never be a matter of scientific review. But is is always fun to grapple over the insane concoctions of Darwin's adherents to keep the skill set sharpened.
This conspiracy rant of yours don't help the creationism cause one bit.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Oh, you mean you've got to learn how to assume things about bones. I already knew that.

The bones don't tell stories. They're just bones.
Yeah, I'm sure we can't learn anything about the brain either. After all, it's just a bunch of neurons.
I'm sure we can't tell anything about the human body either. They're just made up of cells.
I'm sure we can't tell anything about the earth either. It's just made up of some minerals and elements.

This is one of the silliest things arguments I've seen someone present on this forum.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
No different from a poster taken by the sounds of the voices of "learned" men looking for an alternative to God's judgement to come.
If someone doesn't believe in your god in the first place, then I assure you they are not "looking for an alternative" to something they don't think is going to actually happen.

What they are looking for are explanations that actually help us glean some information about the world we live in.
 

Reggie Miller

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm sure we can't learn anything about the brain either. After all, it's just a bunch of neurons.
I'm sure we can't tell anything about the human body either. They're just made up of cells.
I'm sure we can't tell anything about the earth either. It's just made up of some minerals and elements.

This is one of the silliest things arguments I've seen someone present on this forum.

A false dilemma (also called false dichotomy, false binary, black-and-white thinking, bifurcation, denying a conjunct, the either–or fallacy, fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses, fallacy of the excluded middle, the fallacy of false choice, or the fallacy of the false alternative is a type of informal fallacy in which something is falsely claimed to be an either-or situation, when in fact there is at least one additional option.
 

Reggie Miller

Well-Known Member
If someone doesn't believe in your god in the first place, then I assure you they are not "looking for an alternative" to something they don't think is going to actually happen.

What they are looking for are explanations that actually help us glean some information about the world we live in.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
A false dilemma (also called false dichotomy, false binary, black-and-white thinking, bifurcation, denying a conjunct, the either–or fallacy, fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses, fallacy of the excluded middle, the fallacy of false choice, or the fallacy of the false alternative is a type of informal fallacy in which something is falsely claimed to be an either-or situation, when in fact there is at least one additional option.
What are you talking about?

You said, "bones don't tell stories. They're just bones." It implies that we can't learn anything from investigating and analyzing physical structures like bones, brains, bodies, etc. Your claim is an erroneous one made out of ignorance of osteology, paleontology and other sciences. Scientists who spend their lives studying such things disagree with you and can demonstrate how and why your claim is erroneous. Check out some science journals sometime.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
So you claim. But have yet to actually demonstrate.

I have never seen these "invisible qualities" that are supposed to be "clearly seen" (however that works). Many others have not either. And still many others believe in different gods than you do. So your claim fails.
 

Reggie Miller

Well-Known Member
So you claim. But have yet to actually demonstrate.

I have never seen these "invisible qualities" that are supposed to be "clearly seen" (however that works). Many others have not either. And still many others believe in different gods than you do. So your claim fails.

According to the verse it is obvious.
 

Reggie Miller

Well-Known Member
What are you talking about?

You said, "bones don't tell stories. They're just bones." It implies that we can't learn anything from investigating and analyzing physical structures like bones, brains, bodies, etc. Your claim is an erroneous one made out of ignorance of osteology, paleontology and other sciences. Scientists who spend their lives studying such things disagree with you and can demonstrate how and why your claim is erroneous. Check out some science journals sometime.

It doesn't imply anything. Bones don't tell stories. You can look at a bone and make up a story about it that sounds logical, sure. But the bone can't tell you how old it is, where it came from, etc. You have to guess.
 

McBell

Unbound
It doesn't imply anything. Bones don't tell stories. You can look at a bone and make up a story about it that sounds logical, sure. But the bone can't tell you how old it is, where it came from, etc. You have to guess.
Except this is false.
It can be determined not only where, but when bones are from.

That you are not up on the current technologies and procedures may not be your fault.
However, bones can be analyzed to determine all manner of facts surrounding the living creature they are from.
 
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