A challenge to show me wrong

[gnomon]

Here's a summary paper on the structure of testing for "theory of mind" tasks and autism, written by the current pre-eminent expert on the subject, cognitive psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen.

http://www.autism-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/TOM-in-TD-and-ASD.pdf


Here are some abstracts. I may have a few of these papers in their full versions.

[The theory of the mind of the autistic child]. [Sante Ment Que. 1998] - PubMed result
[Theory of mind in Asperger syndrome]. [Encephale. 2007] - PubMed result
A new 'advanced' test of theory of mind: evidence ... [J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2002] - PubMed result
Comparison of social cognitive functioning in schi... [Psychol Med. 2010] - PubMed result

Thank you!

Personally, I really don't know what to think about all this. I've come to this thread late, but with all the intelligent arguments made convinces me that I made a good "choice" when I decided to join the RF of my own "free will". This site definitely stimulates my brain. My question is, is it possible for free will and pre-destination to co-exist?

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

I don't know if I can answer your question but this is where I'm at in the discussion.

Did free will bring you to this site? Or me to this site? Not possessing a memory of events that I could tie into a precise logical step by step conclusion that would have inevitably led me to this site I would say it appears to be free will. After all I do recall what the specific search term was in Google that brought this forum to my attention. After a discussion at a political forum I googled "religion, forum, evolution" and this site came up. I joined, admonished Darkdale and responded to a post about Hurricane Katrina and BAM.......I'm here. Still reading. In what would appear to be a number of unrelated events of coming home from work, reading posts on one forum, deciding to do a Google search on a subject, finding this forum and joining to make a couple of points.

However, it may just be I cannot account for all the aspects of my own personality, personal experiences and recalled memories that I'm simply not consciously aware of all the events as well as all events outside my own consciousness by others that inevitably led me here. So I'm thinking that we react on impulses under the illusion of free will because it is not possible for our brains to accurately and precisely record all the facts that lead us to certain events. Which may be what I call a useful illusion because I know some of the arguments brought about under the notion of predeterminism often related to criminal activity which I don't think a society could function if the majority of adherents followed that philosophy.

 

[doppelganger]

No, i mean it the same way he didn't chose which mind to have.
Anyway, i wouldn't say an individual uses his mind.
An individual is his mind.

His conscious mind? That part where the movie of existence plays out for observation and reflection?

 

[blackout]

I think the point of my last (train) post was probably lost and missed.

If I am VERY aware not to make choices
because others around me want me to make those choices,
(ie. not to make choices due to pressure and expectation of others)
but to make choices that stem from my OWN person'all DESIRE,
and then those choices create momentum in my life,
and I continue to dig into how and why others manipulate
what we do, and why,
and I continue to discern my decision making
at the foot of my OWN ALTAR/ALTER,
in accordance with what I actually want,
My life becomes more CONSCIOUSLY my own,
by means of contemplation, creation, and then in turn,
the domino effect of MY OWNed causations.

Perhaps this is not 'free will' proper,
but
it does "make a real boy, from a puppet".

Anyhow, if we all live by our own illusions,
this is the illusion
that brings the most 'magic' and happiness to my Being.
(I know, because I've tried living other people's illusions
before my own.
The line of that causation was a train wreck of a life.)

 

[Willamena]

No, i mean it the same way he didn't chose which mind to have.

Look at it this way: could he have chosen which mind? If not, if he couldn't have chosen (had no choice), then that would be why he didn't choose.

Otherwise, you're implying he could have chosen which mind to have.

Anyway, i wouldn't say an individual uses his mind.
An individual is his mind.

I'd say both.

 

[Koldo]

His conscious mind?

Yes.

That part where the movie of existence plays out for observation and reflection?

That is also a role of the conscious mind.
There is more to it though.

 

[Koldo]

Look at it this way: could he have chosen which mind? If not, if he couldn't have chosen (had no choice), then that would be why he didn't choose.

Otherwise, you're implying he could have chosen which mind to have.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

 

[Willamena]

I don't understand what you mean by this.

You said his will chose an answer, but it wasn't free because he didn't get to choose his will, the same way he doesn't get to chose which mind. I'm saying if he "doesn't get to choose," then that may be "unfree will" but more so, it's "against his will." It's not really willed at all.

 

[doppelganger]

Yes.

So you believe that the conscious mind is the person? And that this is where the "choices" occur?

 

[Koldo]

You said his will chose an answer, but it wasn't free because he didn't get to choose his will, the same way he doesn't get to chose which mind. I'm saying if he "doesn't get to choose," then that may be "unfree will" but more so, it's "against his will." It's not really willed at all.

It is not against his will.
If it was then It would be necessary for his will to exist before he could choose a will ( as a whole ). This is certainly not possible.

 

[Koldo]

So you believe that the conscious mind is the person?

More than the other parts.

And that this is where the "choices" occur?

Rather, it is where some options are presented.

 

[doppelganger]

Rather, it is where some options are presented.

If that's where the options "are presented," what is the thing that does the choosing? I don't mean to inquire what word we use for it. I mean to get what you understand it to be . . . how it works?

 

[Koldo]

If that's where the options "are presented," what is the thing that does the choosing? I don't mean to inquire what word we use for it. I mean to get what you understand it to be . . . how it works?

Choices are made by the mind using the parameters set by the will.
In other words, the will picks the answer while the mind writes it down.

 

[doppelganger]

Choices are made by the mind using the parameters set by the will.
In other words, the will picks the answer while the mind writes it down.

That begs the question though. What is the "will" if not the mind or the brain?

 

[blackout]

Is Will what you want? or what you Do.

When you do what you want,
and you want what you do,

Perhaps that, is Will.

 

[Koldo]

That begs the question though.

I don't see how this begs the question.

What is the "will" if not the mind or the brain?

The will is part of the nonconscious mind.

 

[Willamena]

It is not against his will.
If it was then It would be necessary for his will to exist before he could choose a will ( as a whole ). This is certainly not possible.

Doesn't the will exist whether he chooses it or not? Else, what are we talking about?

It really is necessary for a will to exist before he can choose or not choose it.

 

[doppelganger]

The will is part of the nonconscious mind.

Which part?

 

[Koldo]

Doesn't the will exist whether he chooses it or not? Else, what are we talking about?

It is impossible for anyone to choose to have a will.

It really is necessary for a will to exist before he can choose or not choose it.

To choose? Yes.
To not choose? No. For example, i didn't choose to be born.

 

[Koldo]

Which part?

What do you mean?

 

[blackout]

I must somehow be lost here,
because to me
Will has to do with what one wants,
and what one does to obtain/bring forth/manifest
that desire.
A most conscious endeavor.

That said,
our desires themselves
may rise up from the mix of factors
that makes me, me
and you, you.

Certainly, we do not all desire the same things.
Some things yes,
but they are more needs.
Food, shelter, clean water...

For the most part I think human beings
are born with the Will to Live.
The Desire to Live.