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A challenge to show me wrong

gnomon

Well-Known Member
doppelgänger;2493662 said:
I know it kinda sounds like that, but that's not really what I'm getting at. I think the first step is to examine what occurs when we say that something is "real" or it "exists".

Thought divides the experience of reality into discreet things for the purpose of acquiring useful information. The distinctions between things, as, for example, between "substance" (matter or energy) and "space", or even between "past" and "future," become through their use as information to accomplish some purpose. As someone (it might have been you) noted earlier in this thread, altering consciousness can have drastic effects on the way sensory information is interpreted and organized - like during dreams, after brain damage, in deep meditation or while under the influence of psychotropic drugs. Less obvious . . . but far more pervasive . . . forms can be tailored or altered through social conditioning


Three further observations follow:

(1) As the sensory input changes or the forms/memories change, or the process by which sensory input is placed into relationship changes, reality itself changes. One of the main reasons for changing forms/memories is the change of purposes. One model of reality may be quite fine for supressing strong feels of existential anxiety (e.g. "There is a God and He loves me.) but as the person matures and has less psychological need for a parent to control their well-being, the purpose of harnessing information for their own control of their environment becomes a more important purpose (e.g. "The world is a machine and understanding it through science is power.").

(2) Each instance of a process where sensory input is integrated with memory will occasion a different universe from each other such instance. Put another way, there is one Universe for each reality processor. There are as many Universes as there are conscious minds integrating the neurology of the senses with the neurology of memory. Where this integration occurs is where we find that peculiar homunculus - the "self" or the "soul." What we are referring to is the process itself at which my sensations are placed into relationship by thought. As the poet and philosopher Novalis put it, "The seat of the soul is where the inner and outer world meet. Where they overlap, it is in every point of that overlap."

As an aside, recent research shows there's a part of the human brain evolved specifically for the purpose of creating phantoms from this process - projecting a separate thingly-ness to the point were sensations are interpreted into memory to form reality. In this model, these tasks, which are mostly carried out in the part of the amygdala and pre-frontal cortex containing the "mirror neurons" we find the neurological architecture for social conditioning and the conception of the self as being. When this part of the brain projects a separate intentionality behind another thing (a so-called "Theory of Mind task"), it does so in conjunction with recognizing its own process as a thing separate from the reality it is processing - the subject/object divide is the predicate for social reality. This is why it is now believed that moderate to severe autism and its associated limitations in speech and socialization may be related to dysfunction in the mirror neurons and these Theory of Mind tasks. It could be that autistic children have a missing, limited or dysfunctional neurology of the self. Raising a moderately autistic child, it seems to me that this is what is going on with my son. He can carry out very complicated mental tasks. But he has enormous trouble distinguishing between his self and other selves. I can link you to several peer-reviewed paper abstracts and some good research summaries by leading experts in this field, if you are interested.

(3) This neurology is a predicate to the structure and use of our language and grammar itself, so using language to unwind it is at very least extremely difficult, and may be impossible. As Willamena points out, even the concept of "cause" is a thought construct that is the product of fragmenting and organizing reality in thought.

So when I say that "choices" are caused by an infinitely complex web of preceding causes, I don't mean like a causal sequence. I mean in the sense that absent an "observer" fragmenting the Universe into useful information, all of reality is inextricably intertwined in an undifferentiated whole. The "self" and its apparent choices are no different. Its immediate causes are the movements of electrochemicals in the neurological synapses, but all of these are further caused by the infinitely complex web of motion that makes up the entire universe.

As Spinoza put it in Ethics:

He goes on to write:



The projection of the will as a thing in itself is projection of a non-causal (i.e. "supernatural") source that functions apart from all other reality. The soul (the ego, the mind, the self, "I am", "that which chooses" or any use of language that presumes the identity of user as distinct from other things) is not observed by associating it with categories of sensations, but by the fact that sensations are being categorized and used - and language presumes a "mind" behind it. Either one believes in God to which the will is connected as a similarly other-worldly thing (the "soul" for instance) or one believes the will or the self is itself "God."

Magical beings that cause reality and are not caused by it are deities.

"You are something the whole Universe is doing not unlike a wave is something the whole ocean is doing." - Alan Watts

First off, that was a damn good post.

I would like those links if you don't mind because I'm not going to pretend to fully understand exactly what it is your are talking about. I remember you talking about your son and witnessing my nephew who struggles with language to the point that it keeps him in special education I would be interested in these. He's not autistic he's been diagnosed as, well, slow. I guess what doctors call mildly retarded.

What I was thinking was that you were stating that what we think of as free will is actually a response by the self based upon subconscious reactions the mind bases upon our memory. I have to admit that I don't know much about tying language into this topic as much as others.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
You have something against defining things? :)

Why, of course not.

I have lots against treating definitions as creators of fact, and much more against using them to mislead, however. Responsibility is an important subject matter, and I wish it were freed from such baggage.
 

blackout

Violet.
doppelgänger;2493662 said:
I know it kinda sounds like that, but that's not really what I'm getting at. I think the first step is to examine what occurs when we say that something is "real" or it "exists".

Thought divides the experience of reality into discreet things for the purpose of acquiring useful information. The distinctions between things, as, for example, between "substance" (matter or energy) and "space", or even between "past" and "future," become through their use as information to accomplish some purpose. As someone (it might have been you) noted earlier in this thread, altering consciousness can have drastic effects on the way sensory information is interpreted and organized - like during dreams, after brain damage, in deep meditation or while under the influence of psychotropic drugs. Less obvious . . . but far more pervasive . . . forms can be tailored or altered through social conditioning


Three further observations follow:

(1) As the sensory input changes or the forms/memories change, or the process by which sensory input is placed into relationship changes, reality itself changes. One of the main reasons for changing forms/memories is the change of purposes. One model of reality may be quite fine for supressing strong feels of existential anxiety (e.g. "There is a God and He loves me.) but as the person matures and has less psychological need for a parent to control their well-being, the purpose of harnessing information for their own control of their environment becomes a more important purpose (e.g. "The world is a machine and understanding it through science is power.").

(2) Each instance of a process where sensory input is integrated with memory will occasion a different universe from each other such instance. Put another way, there is one Universe for each reality processor. There are as many Universes as there are conscious minds integrating the neurology of the senses with the neurology of memory. Where this integration occurs is where we find that peculiar homunculus - the "self" or the "soul." What we are referring to is the process itself at which my sensations are placed into relationship by thought. As the poet and philosopher Novalis put it, "The seat of the soul is where the inner and outer world meet. Where they overlap, it is in every point of that overlap."

As an aside, recent research shows there's a part of the human brain evolved specifically for the purpose of creating phantoms from this process - projecting a separate thingly-ness to the point were sensations are interpreted into memory to form reality. In this model, these tasks, which are mostly carried out in the part of the amygdala and pre-frontal cortex containing the "mirror neurons" we find the neurological architecture for social conditioning and the conception of the self as being. When this part of the brain projects a separate intentionality behind another thing (a so-called "Theory of Mind task"), it does so in conjunction with recognizing its own process as a thing separate from the reality it is processing - the subject/object divide is the predicate for social reality. This is why it is now believed that moderate to severe autism and its associated limitations in speech and socialization may be related to dysfunction in the mirror neurons and these Theory of Mind tasks. It could be that autistic children have a missing, limited or dysfunctional neurology of the self. Raising a moderately autistic child, it seems to me that this is what is going on with my son. He can carry out very complicated mental tasks. But he has enormous trouble distinguishing between his self and other selves. I can link you to several peer-reviewed paper abstracts and some good research summaries by leading experts in this field, if you are interested.

(3) This neurology is a predicate to the structure and use of our language and grammar itself, so using language to unwind it is at very least extremely difficult, and may be impossible. As Willamena points out, even the concept of "cause" is a thought construct that is the product of fragmenting and organizing reality in thought.

So when I say that "choices" are caused by an infinitely complex web of preceding causes, I don't mean like a causal sequence. I mean in the sense that absent an "observer" fragmenting the Universe into useful information, all of reality is inextricably intertwined in an undifferentiated whole. The "self" and its apparent choices are no different. Its immediate causes are the movements of electrochemicals in the neurological synapses, but all of these are further caused by the infinitely complex web of motion that makes up the entire universe.

As Spinoza put it in Ethics:

He goes on to write:



The projection of the will as a thing in itself is projection of a non-causal (i.e. "supernatural") source that functions apart from all other reality. The soul (the ego, the mind, the self, "I am", "that which chooses" or any use of language that presumes the identity of user as distinct from other things) is not observed by associating it with categories of sensations, but by the fact that sensations are being categorized and used - and language presumes a "mind" behind it. Either one believes in God to which the will is connected as a similarly other-worldly thing (the "soul" for instance) or one believes the will or the self is itself "God."

Magical beings that cause reality and are not caused by it are deities.

"You are something the whole Universe is doing not unlike a wave is something the whole ocean is doing." - Alan Watts

Fascinating, Dopp.

Thanks to your clear presentation,
I actually understood a good %80 of your post.
Go Me! :D

The bolded section, though, as much as it intreigues me,
I'm afraid has escaped my secure grasp.
Would you unpack that first underlined sentence
just a bit more?
esp. "creating phantoms from this process"
and what follows.
Also, and you know me pretty well,
if you think I might actually understand the links you spoke of,
I would love to read them also.

This thread has actually turned out to be
one of the more interesting ones
I've participated in
in quite some time.

Enjoying all of the intelligent participation
all around.
It has expanded my experience of life just a bit.
Stretched my paradigm.
Can't often say that.

I like the exercise. ;)
 
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PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
No, because that's a question of AI. For a computer to do something outside its design of its own ability, it would have to have intelligence. The Turing Problem ensures that computers will never think in the same manner as humans.
That's not what Turing himself thought. :D As far as he could work out, brains and computers are just two forms of the same thing. Turning one into the other is just a matter of software.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
The bolded section, though, as much as it intreigues me,
I'm afraid has escaped my secure grasp.
Would you unpack that first underlined sentence
just a bit more?
Sorry, that sentence is really poorly written.

There appears to be a part of the brain that - when it sees movements, and especially patterns of movement, in the world of its experience - has developed to assume an intelligence or "mind" (an intentionality or purposefulness) as the cause of motion and order. Projecting "phantom" minds behind the order we observe is one of the things performed by that part of the human brain designed for socialization and language acquisition.

This wiki article explains it in much more detail:

Theory of mind - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mirror neuron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Adramelek

Setian
Premium Member
Personally, I really don't know what to think about all this. I've come to this thread late, but with all the intelligent arguments made convinces me that I made a good "choice" when I decided to join the RF of my own "free will". :p This site definitely stimulates my brain. My question is, is it possible for free will and pre-destination to co-exist?

Xeper.
/Adramelek\
 

blackout

Violet.
I was thinking earlier today
about sports "heroes".
The ones at the top of their game.
The ones the fans hail and cheer,
for their uber ability and strength,
and skill.

Without the Will to Become,
there is no "man" to hail.
Just a figure, who does things
that most others can't.
An I'con.
No sports hero.
Not an athlete who built himSelf
by Strength of Will.
Just a physical marvel,
hailed and enjoyed
for the "differentness" of his fate.

So why do we pay them so much?
So much money? So much esteem?
Why do people make gods of humans
for simply being born
and proceeding through
the particular series of causations
that happened to be fated them?

Humans like their entertainment, yes.
But really there is nothing at all to applaud
or admire on an internal level.

All 'admiration' would be
surface, external and spectacle.
(as in "admiring" one's abs, or an act of streamline strength)
Not admiration of the deeper kind.



 
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blackout

Violet.
(Assuming the line of thinking in this thread is correct)...

Awards are pointless,
except to acknowledge
that person A happens to exhibit the traits of award A,
(which really is nothing applause worthy)
and to serve
also as a catalyst for future causational behavior.

(in the form of "rewards given", for doing such and such)

Awards really are simply rewards,
given under the guise
that some exemplary Will
was behind a person's "success"
in carrying out some certain set of actions.

All the clapping
for this one getting this award
and that one getting the other,
is empty applause at best,
and behavior manipulation
at worst.

As well, they build up, and break down
the individual's sense of worth.
The award says "it is good to be _____(this particular thing)".
And if that is not what you are,
(by no fault of your own)
and what you are
(also by no fault or merit of your own)
is not "awarded" by that particular system,
then YOU, are not "award worthy".

But worthiness,
or worth,
has nothing at all to do with it.
(unless people are reduced to assets
in relation to some specific enterprise or speculation)

Human beings, apparently ,
are quite big on
"much adue about nothing".
and of course
behavioral control and conformity.
 
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idav

Being
Premium Member
When saying we don't deserve reward you would also say that nobody deserves punishments for any crimes. However with the line of thought of the thread we are caused to reward or punish. Caused not only by the brilliance or corruption of someone but also caused to do so by our cultural influences.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
When saying we don't deserve reward you would also say that nobody deserves punishments for any crimes. However with the line of thought of the thread we are caused to reward or punish. Caused not only by the brilliance or corruption of someone but also caused to do so by our cultural influences.
Whatever causes and effects make up the great soup of life, this too is one of the results. Just as the student couldn't help but cheat on his test, the teacher couldn't help but punish him for it.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
People really don't understand robots. They do not have brains, but it is theoretically possible to replicate an associative-memory brain algorithmically. They are also not totally "pre-programmed". It is possible to create machines that learn from experience in the same way that humans do. Robot "brains" are very simple devices compared even to an insect brain, but they can perform some very complex tasks. "Non-deterministic programming" in artificial intelligence is a technique that separates the programmer from the details of how choices are made. A complex set of programs that drive a robot will often produce behavior that is not predictable even to the programmer. That is because the choices are made on an ad hoc basis under conditions that the programmer cannot predict.

As i have said already: Just because the programmer fails to understand how the code will interact in every possible situation it doesn't mean the robot is free.

Not true. Polyhedral was correct in pointing out that moral agency is part of the causal chain. It is rule-governed, not random.

Which one of the sentences are you talking about?
This reply does not contradict what i have said in any of the quoted ones.

That's not totally inaccurate, but it would be true that the type of "programmed robots" you are talking about are of a completely different sort than what we are capable of producing today. For one thing, we do not have a comprehensive grasp of how the brain works. We do not understand all of its structures or functions. So we can't very well produce machines that replicate its behavior. We can simulate some types of human behavior precisely because human behavior is causally tractable.

I was using the word 'robots' in a very broad sense.
So indeed i agree with you on this.

I have no trouble with the word "responsibility". It makes sense when one is talking about autonomous entities. I have seen robot teams in which the individual units assign different responsibilities to different members of the team. Individual members can look at a task and bargain with each other over which team member is most likely to be able to accomplish a goal.

In this case i was being very specific about the moral responsibility.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I've read your post without reading the others and I think it is well written and it is clear that you thought about it. In your example you used the choice to go home. That was your will, to go home. You could've easily stayed where you were before making that decision, but you didn't, you chose to go home. That is your free will. You decided on your own to go home. You also decided what path to take. Its wasn't predetermined for you by someone else.

But he didn't choose to have that will.
That is the point. :p
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
No, because that's a question of AI. For a computer to do something outside its design of its own ability, it would have to have intelligence. The Turing Problem ensures that computers will never think in the same manner as humans.
There is a "Turing Test", but I am unfamiliar with the "Turing Problem". Turing proposed a test to determine whether a computer was indeed "intelligent" in a human sense. I think that his pragmatic "test" is overrated. Turing didn't know that much about intelligence, and he was also something of a spiritualist, thinking that computers could not achieve "telepathic" powers of the sort that humans were presumably capable of.

Let's not forget that human cognition is grounded in associative memory and reasoning. Minds are "embodied". That is they store experiences of bodily sensations and continuously compare them against new experiences. All knowledge and belief is built up from analogy with those bodily sensations. Deductive reasoning (a.k.a. "logic") exists as a method for guaranteeing consistency with slow-changing core beliefs. There is no reason, in principle, that we could not build machines to use the same methodology for interaction with their environment. Indeed, AI researchers are working on doing just that, although we are limited by our ignorance of precisely how the brain works.

AI and the human brain are complete opposites in the manner in which they use the information fed to them. Computers are required to break down information completely then recompile it using compiler and parsers. This is something we don't do as humans. We continually compile.
I don't think that you understand the field of AI very well. It is a discipline within computer science that attempts to use computers to mimic intelligent thinking, and that can mean a great many different things. There are a lot of different approaches to simulating intelligent behavior, and most of us just think of them as steps in the direction of "true AI", which means true thinking machines in the human sense of the word. The field is still very much in its infancy. One of the biggest hurdles will be the development of new techniques for machine learning. Ultimately, the machines themselves will design and build more advanced AI architectures. We won't have true AI until machines "learn" about the world in the way humans do. And even we, with our marvelous biological "machine" brains take years to achieve full mature understanding of our world.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
doppelgänger;2495148 said:
Why is that the question?
Though I may not have worded it correctly depending on opinion I will expand a bit. We would want to know where it is all headed whether intentional or not. It is obvious that our influence has a huge impact in a cause and effect system. Our influence as it is now would impact the future in a ripple effect that is beyond what we can fathom. If we are determined to do so that is fine but the fact that our influence does change things we are ultimately influencing each others influences. Where it is all headed especially in a oneness sense is the question to consider.
 
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