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A challenge to show me wrong

idav

Being
Premium Member
doppelgänger;2492952 said:
Well, let's be clear. A strict determinist doesn't exist, because strict determinism necessarily denies the existential predicate of language => to say "free will" is an illusion is to say "I am" is an illusion.

The paradox is rather simply resolved by eliminating the habit in thought of equating "random" with "uncaused." My behavior in a given situation is the product of an infinitely or likely almost infinitely complex web of causal predicates, the most immediate of which are the activities of my neurology occurring completely outside the perception of conscious thought - the subconscious. This makes them unpredictable and uncertain before they have occurred. That does not make my behavior uncaused. In a given "choice" the entirety of the causal universe of which I am a part was such that the behaviors I manifest were always going to be what they were determined to be - and how I would view and determine them would, in turn, be a product of an infinite web of causes.

As an information system trying to make predictions from incomplete information, thought cannot account for enough of that web of causes to eliminate this appearance of "randomness." Once the mistake is made of severing "randomness" from uncertainty and projecting randomness as an attribute of reality rather than an attribute of information about reality, it necessarily follows that uncaused phantoms arise - i.e. the will, intelligent design, an implicate order to the Universe.

An information system that has a place in reality for free will as a thing in itself is fundamentally theistic.
I get your point about random being about uncertainty rather than uncaused. I would say that the lotto is random and next to impossible to predict even though it abides by classical physics. The problem at the atomic level is I'm pretty certain it doesn't always abide by classical physics and I'm uncertain where our thoughts fall in that area. We like to assume everything has a cause except for existence itself is uncaused ?!?

I have to say we are damn good at making it look like we have thoughts that only belong to us. Like when I pick an instrument and write a pleasing series of notes and random lyrical musing to create a song. If it is all caused then theoretically one could predict the next creation of any artist but of course next to impossible with our limited knowledge. I've heard that somewhere in the world someone is having the same thoughts as you likely because we all build on the same foundations in order to create "new" things. Kinda like saying we can't truly have a new idea but we certainly do have newer ideas given the state of our technological advancements.

I have run into some who are deterministic saying that god determines everything that will happen and punishing people even though god is ultimately responsible for every single thing under such a philosophy. I can see that it is more comfortable to assign free will to make us responsible for following the edicts of a god.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
I had the same question, but I wasn't drinking. :) I see no connection between an autonomous decision-maker in a chaotic deterministic system and theism.

Reading dopp's posts is better with whiskey.

Just kidding dopp. And I know you were about to address this because I almost responded to your deleted post. Inquiring minds want to know?

But I'm about to take a cab to the pool hall so I'll have to wait.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I see no connection between an autonomous decision-maker in a chaotic deterministic system and theism.
In a deterministic universe, assuming god created it, god would be stuck with the initial decision he made not being able to change anything because it will already be determined. God being the first uncaused event is intriguing but is pretty limiting especially for someone who is supposed to be all powerful. Not sure where he was going with that but those are some more of my thoughts anyway.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
In a deterministic universe, assuming god created it, god would be stuck with the initial decision he made not being able to change anything because it will already be determined. God being the first uncaused event is intriguing but is pretty limiting especially for someone who is supposed to be all powerful. Not sure where he was going with that but those are some more of my thoughts anyway.

I was thinking dopp was implying a deterministic universe without a God but which resembled theism. I'm not sure.

Actually, it is. :)

(*sews a pearl in Gnomon's lapel*)

Awww. My lapel looks better now.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
In a deterministic universe, assuming god created it, god would be stuck with the initial decision he made not being able to change anything because it will already be determined. God being the first uncaused event is intriguing but is pretty limiting especially for someone who is supposed to be all powerful. Not sure where he was going with that but those are some more of my thoughts anyway.
Well, we can wait for another of dopp's intoxicating comments. :) There does seem to be some cognitive dissonance associated with the idea that God is both omnipotent and omniscient. If God has absolute knowledge of the future, then he cannot change it without cancelling omnipotence. If God can actually change future outcomes, then he cannot know with certainty (i.e. be "omniscient") what those outcomes will be. These are the considerations that drive some to claim that an omnimax God is an impossible being.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Well, we can wait for another of dopp's intoxicating comments. :) There does seem to be some cognitive dissonance associated with the idea that God is both omnipotent and omniscient. If God has absolute knowledge of the future, then he cannot change it without cancelling omnipotence. If God can actually change future outcomes, then he cannot know with certainty (i.e. be "omniscient") what those outcomes will be. These are the considerations that drive some to claim that an omnimax God is an impossible being.

So redefine it.
Obviously the resolve of any discussion is definition.
If your definition is flawed...change.it.

(You may have noticed....almost every discussion here at the forum is an effort to do exactly that.)

Someone had to be First.
No matter how you go about it...regression will take you to the First.

Can we then assume the First has the advantage?
He's been around for awhile.

If He has any control at all...greater than ours....He is the Almighty.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Someone had to be First.
No matter how you go about it...regression will take you to the First.
Consider the integers.

Something has to be next.
No matter how you define them...regression gives you a...

But it doesn't give you a "last." Why does there have to be a First, if everything has a cause? :shrug:
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Why does there have to be a First, if everything has a cause? :shrug:

Actually, it doesn't. The idea that everything has to have a (clear) cause is just an aesthetical preference running amok. It is confortable (most of the time) but ultimately tentative.

And, of course, it is also incompatible with the very idea of a Creator, a First Cause. It takes an appeal to exception to make the two compatible.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Are you stating that while a seemingly apparent random choice may appear uncaused it is actually due to a series of causations?
I know it kinda sounds like that, but that's not really what I'm getting at. I think the first step is to examine what occurs when we say that something is "real" or it "exists".

Thought divides the experience of reality into discreet things for the purpose of acquiring useful information. The distinctions between things, as, for example, between "substance" (matter or energy) and "space", or even between "past" and "future," become through their use as information to accomplish some purpose. As someone (it might have been you) noted earlier in this thread, altering consciousness can have drastic effects on the way sensory information is interpreted and organized - like during dreams, after brain damage, in deep meditation or while under the influence of psychotropic drugs. Less obvious . . . but far more pervasive . . . forms can be tailored or altered through social conditioning


Three further observations follow:

(1) As the sensory input changes or the forms/memories change, or the process by which sensory input is placed into relationship changes, reality itself changes. One of the main reasons for changing forms/memories is the change of purposes. One model of reality may be quite fine for supressing strong feels of existential anxiety (e.g. "There is a God and He loves me.) but as the person matures and has less psychological need for a parent to control their well-being, the purpose of harnessing information for their own control of their environment becomes a more important purpose (e.g. "The world is a machine and understanding it through science is power.").

(2) Each instance of a process where sensory input is integrated with memory will occasion a different universe from each other such instance. Put another way, there is one Universe for each reality processor. There are as many Universes as there are conscious minds integrating the neurology of the senses with the neurology of memory. Where this integration occurs is where we find that peculiar homunculus - the "self" or the "soul." What we are referring to is the process itself at which my sensations are placed into relationship by thought. As the poet and philosopher Novalis put it, "The seat of the soul is where the inner and outer world meet. Where they overlap, it is in every point of that overlap."

As an aside, recent research shows there's a part of the human brain evolved specifically for the purpose of creating phantoms from this process - projecting a separate thingly-ness to the point were sensations are interpreted into memory to form reality. In this model, these tasks, which are mostly carried out in the part of the amygdala and pre-frontal cortex containing the "mirror neurons" we find the neurological architecture for social conditioning and the conception of the self as being. When this part of the brain projects a separate intentionality behind another thing (a so-called "Theory of Mind task"), it does so in conjunction with recognizing its own process as a thing separate from the reality it is processing - the subject/object divide is the predicate for social reality. This is why it is now believed that moderate to severe autism and its associated limitations in speech and socialization may be related to dysfunction in the mirror neurons and these Theory of Mind tasks. It could be that autistic children have a missing, limited or dysfunctional neurology of the self. Raising a moderately autistic child, it seems to me that this is what is going on with my son. He can carry out very complicated mental tasks. But he has enormous trouble distinguishing between his self and other selves. I can link you to several peer-reviewed paper abstracts and some good research summaries by leading experts in this field, if you are interested.

(3) This neurology is a predicate to the structure and use of our language and grammar itself, so using language to unwind it is at very least extremely difficult, and may be impossible. As Willamena points out, even the concept of "cause" is a thought construct that is the product of fragmenting and organizing reality in thought.

So when I say that "choices" are caused by an infinitely complex web of preceding causes, I don't mean like a causal sequence. I mean in the sense that absent an "observer" fragmenting the Universe into useful information, all of reality is inextricably intertwined in an undifferentiated whole. The "self" and its apparent choices are no different. Its immediate causes are the movements of electrochemicals in the neurological synapses, but all of these are further caused by the infinitely complex web of motion that makes up the entire universe.

As Spinoza put it in Ethics:

Men believe themselves to be free because they are conscious of their own actions and are ignorant of the causes by which they are determined. The mind is determined to this or that choice by a cause which is also determined by another cause, and this again by another, and so on ad infinitum. This doctrine teaches us to hate no one, to despise no one, to mock no one, to be angry with no one, and to envy no one.
He goes on to write:

Further, as they find in themselves and outside themselves many means which assist them not a little in their search for what is useful, for instance, eyes for seeing, teeth for chewing, herbs and animals for yielding food, the sun for giving light, the sea for breeding fish, etc., they come to look on the whole of nature as a means for obtaining such conveniences. Now as they are aware, that they found these conveniences and did not make them, they think they have cause for believing, that some other being has made them for their use. As they look upon things as means, they cannot believe them to be self-created; but, judging from the means which they are accustomed to prepare for themselves, they are bound to believe in some ruler or rulers of the universe endowed with human freedom, who have arranged and adapted everything for human use.

They are bound to estimate the nature of such rulers (having no information on the subject) in accordance with their own nature, and therefore they assert that the gods ordained everything for the use of man, in order to bind man to themselves and obtain from him the highest honour. Hence also it follows, that everyone thought out for himself, according to his abilities, a different way of worshiping God, so that God might love him more than his fellows, and direct, the whole course of nature for the satisfaction of his blind cupidity and insatiable avarice. Thus the prejudice developed into superstition, and took deep root in the human mind; and for this reason everyone strove most zealously to understand and explain the final causes of things
I'm not fully understanding your statement that an IS system is essentially theistic.

Or maybe it's the whiskey.
The projection of the will as a thing in itself is projection of a non-causal (i.e. "supernatural") source that functions apart from all other reality. The soul (the ego, the mind, the self, "I am", "that which chooses" or any use of language that presumes the identity of user as distinct from other things) is not observed by associating it with categories of sensations, but by the fact that sensations are being categorized and used - and language presumes a "mind" behind it. Either one believes in God to which the will is connected as a similarly other-worldly thing (the "soul" for instance) or one believes the will or the self is itself "God."

Magical beings that cause reality and are not caused by it are deities.

"You are something the whole Universe is doing not unlike a wave is something the whole ocean is doing." - Alan Watts
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I AM FOREVER walking upon these shores,
Betwixt the sand and the foam.

The high tide will erase my foot-prints,
And the wind will blow away the foam.
But the sea and the shore will remain
Forever.

~Khalil Gibran
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
If computer technology continued to advance significantly for another 1,000 years, would humans be able to build a computer that could do some things completely independently of its design?

Do animals have free will? If not, does that mean that dogs do not choose to love their masters?
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
That there needs to be some intelligence putting the pieces together in order for them to "be."


Actually, "observational phenomenon" is a tautology --phenomenon is observational.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but it seems that you are using a whole model that relies on the idea that existence itself depends on an observer.

No wonder that we can't agree on anything. My own philosophy denies that rather emphatically.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If computer technology continued to advance significantly for another 1,000 years, would humans be able to build a computer that could do some things completely independently of its design?

Isn't that by definition impossible? That very degree of sophistication is itself dependent from its design, isn't it? In fact, it is dependent upon the whole history of the culture that designed it.

You would need to propose that such a computer could somehow self-create for it to be independent of its design.


Do animals have free will? If not, does that mean that dogs do not choose to love their masters?

No and yes, respectively.
 

Otherright

Otherright
I've read your post without reading the others and I think it is well written and it is clear that you thought about it. In your example you used the choice to go home. That was your will, to go home. You could've easily stayed where you were before making that decision, but you didn't, you chose to go home. That is your free will. You decided on your own to go home. You also decided what path to take. Its wasn't predetermined for you by someone else.
 

Otherright

Otherright
If computer technology continued to advance significantly for another 1,000 years, would humans be able to build a computer that could do some things completely independently of its design?

Do animals have free will? If not, does that mean that dogs do not choose to love their masters?

No, because that's a question of AI. For a computer to do something outside its design of its own ability, it would have to have intelligence. The Turing Problem ensures that computers will never think in the same manner as humans.

AI and the human brain are complete opposites in the manner in which they use the information fed to them. Computers are required to break down information completely then recompile it using compiler and parsers. This is something we don't do as humans. We continually compile.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but it seems that you are using a whole model that relies on the idea that existence itself depends on an observer.

No wonder that we can't agree on anything. My own philosophy denies that rather emphatically.
In my model as you describe it, does an observer exist?

If so, I would say you haven't described my model. ;)
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
In my model as you describe it, does an observer exist?

If so, I would say you haven't described my model. ;)

Indeed I haven't.

In fact, I have only barely understood it enough to realize that I don't accept it at all. It is way too centered in the idea of observers defining events or even existence itself.

I have no use for such models.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Indeed I haven't.

In fact, I have only barely understood it enough to realize that I don't accept it at all. It is way too centered in the idea of observers defining events or even existence itself.

I have no use for such models.
You have something against defining things? :)
 
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