A Christian believes --------------------------------?

[jimb]

As @Trailblazer also pointed out. What sins have been solved? people still do things that are clearly against the law of God, which is considered to be a sin according to the bible.

Do you mean that God doesn't care about it anymore or won't punish for it, or how is it supposed to be understood?

There is a difference between solved and forgiven. People, including Christians sin, but the latter do not do so intentionally. We are forgiven, unlike those who continually sin intentionally.

The punishment for sin has been paid for by Christ's sacrifice.

Try thinking about what I have written. You may gain understanding.

 

[Nimos]

There is a difference between solved and forgiven. People, including Christians sin, but the latter do not do so intentionally. We are forgiven, unlike those who continually sin intentionally.

The punishment for sin has been paid for by Christ's sacrifice.

Try thinking about what I have written. You may gain understanding.

I see, so Christians accidentally sin and then they have a get-out-of-jail card in Jesus. While those who don't believe in God are intentionally doing things in order to sin, despite us not accepting those as being sins.

So the difference between the two from what I can see is that Christians have an excuse for doing wrong due to their religion and are therefore forgiven. While the rest of us will be punished for it.

Pretty lucky that we don't have Christians laws in societies, because a lot of murderers etc. would go free using that excuse

 

[jimb]

I see, so Christians accidentally sin and then they have a get-out-of-jail card in Jesus. While those who don't believe in God are intentionally doing things in order to sin, despite us not accepting those as being sins.

So the difference between the two from what I can see is that Christians have an excuse for doing wrong due to their religion and are therefore forgiven. While the rest of us will be punished for it.

Pretty lucky that we don't have Christians laws in societies, because a lot of murderers etc. would go free using that excuse

Is that what you actually think??? If so, I feel very sorry for you. You clearly don't "see"; your cynicism has "blinded" you.

What problem do you have with "love your neighbor as yourself"?

 

[Nimos]

Is that what you actually think??? If so, I feel very sorry for you. You clearly don't "see"; your cynicism has "blinded" you.

What problem do you have with "love your neighbor as yourself"?

Maybe I misunderstood you, but what does this mean then?

People, including Christians sin, but the latter do not do so intentionally. We are forgiven, unlike those who continually sin intentionally.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Maybe I misunderstood you, but what does this mean then?

People, including Christians sin, but the latter do not do so intentionally. We are forgiven, unlike those who continually sin intentionally.

I'm not sure what source you are quoting, but all one has to do is look around to know that it's a crock. Christians absolutely do intentionally sin at times. If a Christian pastor seduces the church secretary, how is that an unintentional sin?

 

[Sumadji]

I don't care what the Bible says about the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus. I am not a Christian.

Jesus was not going to return at all. It was the Christ spirit that was going to return, in another man.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Then I guess you don't believe what the Bible says.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever.
43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength.
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

Can you make up your mind? You don't believe what the Bible says but you keep quoting selected passages to support your own beliefs?

 

[Nimos]

I'm not sure what source you are quoting, but all one has to do is look around to know that it's a crock. Christians absolutely do intentionally sin at times. If a Christian pastor seduces the church secretary, how is that an unintentional sin?

I just quoted what @jimb wrote in post #61.

 

[jimb]

Maybe I misunderstood you, but what does this mean then?

People, including Christians sin, but the latter do not do so intentionally. We are forgiven, unlike those who continually sin intentionally.

Christians, because we have received the Holy Spirit from God, have the ability to control behavior caused by sin. (Sin is inherent in human nature). People who have not received the Holy Spirit cannot control behavior caused by sin.

As I said earlier, Christians do not sin intentionally. Because the sin is unintentional, it is forgiven by God. (To err is human...) People who sin intentionally are not forgiven by God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Christians, because we have received the Holy Spirit from God, have the ability to control behavior caused by sin. (Sin is inherent in human nature). People who have not received the Holy Spirit cannot control behavior caused by sin.

As I said earlier, Christians do not sin intentionally. Because the sin is unintentional, it is forgiven by God. (To err is human...) People who sin intentionally are not forgiven by God.

What you say here implies that Christians only sin intentionally:

"Christians, because we have received the Holy Spirit from God, have the ability to control behavior caused by sin."

 

[jimb]

I'm not sure what source you are quoting, but all one has to do is look around to know that it's a crock. Christians absolutely do intentionally sin at times. If a Christian pastor seduces the church secretary, how is that an unintentional sin?

"A crock" Very mature and eloquent!

Obviously the hypothetical situation you describe is an intentional sin. If the pastor seduces the secretary, he didn't control his behavior, even though he is capable of doing so.

Romans 6:14 clearly says that sin is no longer your master, i.e., you have the ability to control your behavior if you have received the Holy Spirit.

‐‐--------‐----

I am going to go a step further...

Clearly you are motivated to express your thoughts antagonistically. Why are you so anti-Christian? Have you been personally hurt by a pastor or a sincere Christian? Do you think that citing an extreme hypothetical situation will convince anyone of your viewpoint? (Hint:it doesn't. It just reflects badly on you.)

 

[Nimos]

Christians, because we have received the Holy Spirit from God, have the ability to control behavior caused by sin. (Sin is inherent in human nature). People who have not received the Holy Spirit cannot control behavior caused by sin.

As I said earlier, Christians do not sin intentionally. Because the sin is unintentional, it is forgiven by God. (To err is human...) People who sin intentionally are not forgiven by God.

I am really trying to understand you here.

So everyone except Christians are basically loose cannons because we have no self-control? So how is it that in for example China or India where there isn't a majority of Christians it isn't complete chaos with people constantly stealing at every chance they get, because they have no control over it? We know they don't do this, so how do so many people avoid stealing?

 

[jimb]

I am really trying to understand you here.

So everyone except Christians are basically loose cannons because we have no self-control? So how is it that in for example China or India where there isn't a majority of Christians it isn't complete chaos with people constantly stealing at every chance they get, because they have no control over it? We know they don't do this, so how do so many people avoid stealing?

Are you okay? It seems to me that "you have gone off the deep end".

I do not think that you are really trying to understand. Rather, it seems that you're going to some extreme thinking.

Did I say that "everyone except Christians are basically loose cannons"? The answer is: I did not. That is something you "cooked up". And your example of people in China or India "constantly stealing" is ludicrous. (My answer is that they respect their neighbor's property.)

P.S. There are about 30,000 000 to 40,000,000 Christians in China and about 26,000,000 Christians in India. Maybe that is why they don't steal! LOL!

 

[Nimos]

Are you okay? It seems to me that "you have gone off the deep end".

I do not think that you are really trying to understand. Rather, it seems that you're going to some extreme thinking.

Then why do you write it then?

How would you expect anyone to understand it differently?

Christians, because we have received the Holy Spirit from God, have the ability to control behavior caused by sin. (Sin is inherent in human nature). People who have not received the Holy Spirit cannot control behavior caused by sin.

It matters what you are saying if people can simply rely on "My answer is that they respect their neighbor's property." then Christians might do this as well, and therefore having the holy spirit is irrelevant as people can do it just fine without it. This means that non-Christians have just as much control over sin as Christians have. And therefore your statement that they can't control it, is simply wrong.

Furthermore, that also means that what I originally said about Jesus being a "get out of jail" card, is also true, because only Christians can get away with their sinful behaviour.

You are making an argument here throwing accusations and statements at others and then when questioned about it, you say people are doing extreme thinking, I would rather say that your argument doesn't seem very well thought out.

 

[jimb]

Then why do you write it then?

How would you expect anyone to understand it differently?

Christians, because we have received the Holy Spirit from God, have the ability to control behavior caused by sin. (Sin is inherent in human nature). People who have not received the Holy Spirit cannot control behavior caused by sin.

It matters what you are saying if people can simply rely on "My answer is that they respect their neighbor's property." then Christians might do this as well, and therefore having the holy spirit is irrelevant as people can do it just fine without it. This means that non-Christians have just as much control over sin as Christians have. And therefore your statement that they can't control it, is simply wrong.

Furthermore, that also means that what I originally said about Jesus being a "get out of jail" card, is also true, because only Christians can get away with their sinful behaviour.

You are making an argument here throwing accusations and statements at others and then when questioned about it, you say people are doing extreme thinking, I would rather say that your argument doesn't seem very well thought out.

I am the one making an argument, throwing accusations and statements at others? LOL! Perhaps you should look in the mirror!

Don't you remember writing this (with my emphasis): "I see, so Christians accidentally sin and then they have a get-out-of-jail card in Jesus. While those who don't believe in God are intentionally doing things in order to sin, despite us not accepting those as being sins.

So the difference between the two from what I can see is that Christians have an excuse for doing wrong due to their religion and are therefore forgiven. While the rest of us will be punished for it.

Pretty lucky that we don't have Christians laws in societies, because a lot of murderers etc. would go free using that excuse."

Any unbiased person would consider your hyperbole as nonsense.

 

[Balthazzar]

That God are 3-in-one, instead of One?
That Jesus DIDN'T die?
That the Penalty God gave Adam and Eve was an Eternity in Hellfire?

(Let me know if you want MORE!)

God is and within God are many.
Jesus lived and he died too.
Life, which consists of many things, including but not limited to death, the grave (hell) and calamity. We also get to enjoy better, more pleasing aspects of life like love, joy, happiness, pleasure, laughter, music, etc.

The reality of existing as a living soul. This implies that we are alive and not dormant.


An atheist believes:

The universe exists and everything exist within it.
We live and we die like everything and everyone else.
The cost of living equates to death and the grave (hell/penalty-Christian lingo) another penalty (or wage/cost) would include calamity (hardship/difficulty/evil). Others would include love, joy, happiness, pleasure, laughter, and music, but I'm not sure these are guaranteed, but they are part of life.

I utilize the terms interchangeably. God = Universe

Edit: "A Christian"

I mean, I'm a Christian

 

[Nimos]

I am the one making an argument, throwing accusations and statements at others? LOL! Perhaps you should look in the mirror!

Don't you remember writing this (with my emphasis): "I see, so Christians accidentally sin and then they have a get-out-of-jail card in Jesus. While those who don't believe in God are intentionally doing things in order to sin, despite us not accepting those as being sins.

So the difference between the two from what I can see is that Christians have an excuse for doing wrong due to their religion and are therefore forgiven. While the rest of us will be punished for it.

Pretty lucky that we don't have Christians laws in societies, because a lot of murderers etc. would go free using that excuse."

Any unbiased person would consider your hyperbole as nonsense.

From what you wrote as I also pointed out in the last post, that is what you were saying. I have asked you for clarification which you won't give.

And I'm not accusing any Christians of anything, because I doubt the majority even agrees with what you are saying. But I am questioning your argument.

It is considered a sin to murder and steal and you wrote that Jesus forgives Christians for their sins, so I'm not really sure why you think what I interpreted you wrote as being wrong?

 

[jimb]

From what you wrote as I also pointed out in the last post, that is what you were saying. I have asked you for clarification which you won't give.

And I'm not accusing any Christians of anything, because I doubt the majority even agrees with what you are saying. But I am questioning your argument.

It is considered a sin to murder and steal and you wrote that Jesus forgives Christians for their sins, so I'm not really sure why you think what I interpreted you wrote as being wrong?

a) I do not have to respond the way that you want me to. What makes you think that you are in charge of the discussion? (This is not a court of law and you are not the prosecutor. Is this really the way that you discuss things with people? No wonder you have no understanding of sin!)

b) It is a basic tenet of Judeo-Christian ethics to not kill and to not steal. You either a) don't understand Judeo-Christian ethic or b) you're citing extreme examples that are not accepted by any religion.

If you want to have a reasonable discussion, fine. If you're just going to be absurd and choose extreme examples (for which the answers are obvious), I am not interested!

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you make up your mind? You don't believe what the Bible says but you keep quoting selected passages to support your own beliefs?

I said: I don't care what the Bible says about the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus.

I did not say that I don't care what the Bible says about anything.
I believe that some of the Bible is accurate, but some of it isn't.

 

[Sumadji]

I said: I don't care what the Bible says about the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus.

I did not say that I don't care what the Bible says about anything.
I believe that some of the Bible is accurate, but some of it isn't.

And this is the issue? Who decides? Does science decide, or scholarship, or history? Does faith decide? Do you decide for yourself? Do you just accept what your messengers and teachers tell you?

Islam, and so also Baha'i doctrine, accepts the virgin birth but not the resurrection though endorsing the ascension. Baha'i accepts the miracle worker Jesus but rejects the miracle of Lazarus raised from death.

What's the yardstick for deciding what's true and what's not?

 

[Trailblazer]

And this is the issue? Who decides? Does science decide, or scholarship, or history? Does faith decide? Do you decide for yourself? Do you just accept what your messengers and teachers tell you?

Islam, and so also Baha'i doctrine, accepts the virgin birth but not the resurrection or ascension. Baha'i accepts the miracle worker Jesus but rejects the miracle of Lazarus raised from death.

What's the yardstick for deciding what's true and what's not?

Faith should not decide or be used as a yardstick for deciding what is true.

I think that scholarship should decide what it can study, but at the end of the day there is no way to prove whether that what Jesus allegedly said and did is true or false.

My yardstick for deciding what is true or false is the Baha'i Writings and scholarship from those who have studied history and the Bible.