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A Christian believes --------------------------------?

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You're joking!!! :sweatsmile:

You wrote this (with my emphasis added): "I'm not sure what source you are quoting, but all one has to do is look around to know that it's a crock. Christians absolutely do intentionally sin at times. If a Christian pastor seduces the church secretary, how is that an unintentional sin?"

When you write antagonistic phrases such as the above, you clearly are looking for a fight. Claiming that what a person writes is "a crock" is a lot more than being "unabashedly frank".
It's not meant to be "antagonistic," meaning to argue with you. It's designed to show my contempt for Christians ( or anyone else) that hurt others, and then people in their religion try to pretend it never happened. For example, I don't know which was worse about the Catholic sex scandal: the actual harm done by the pedos, or the way the Church covered it up and allowed it to proliferate.

It's my feelings, and I have a right to express them, just as you do yours.
 
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Sumadji

Member
No, I have never read the New Testament cover to cover. I only know what I have read from having to look up verses in order to converse on religious forums. I know the verses that are related to the return of Christ very well since I discuss that topic often. I also know the verses related to the nature of Jesus, since I often discuss whether He was God or not.
The New Testament consists of 27 books, which cover the entire context. It's a woven tapestry that creates the whole picture. So it's like taking a couple of threads, or parts of threads, from the entire weave and looking at them under a magnifying glass.

Would you try to analyse passages from the Quran or the Avesta without having read the whole book, at least once? And would you disregard the opinions of Muslims and Zoroastrians who know the book well?
I am referring to Lazarus the friend of Jesus, whom Jesus 'allegedly' brought back to life.
I have my own interpretation of those verses if you want to see it.
I can only imagine.

However the context of the passage, in the context of the NT and of Jesus as a healer and miracle worker, makes it quite clear that Lazarus was dead in the flesh, and that Christ brought him back to life in the flesh. So you would have to cover the entire chapter John 11 basically sentence by sentence, to analyse the episode in context to try to make it say something different.

Would you argue passages from The Lord of the Rings in the Tolkien section of a literary forum, without having read the book? From study notes and wikipedia. Or Hamlet in the Shakespeare Debates section?

The Bible is a prodigious collection of writings: prophecy, history, stories and poetry and wisdom. It's the best selling book in the world, with an estimated 5 to 7 billion copies sold. It's been printed in almost every language, including braille, and has been the world's best-selling book every year since it was first written.

There are paradoxes and contradictions and differing accounts. All part of it.

I believe a person misses a lot by not reading it at least once.
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The New Testament consists of 27 books,
Unless you are part of the Ethiopian Church :)
However the context of the passage, in the context of the NT and of Jesus as a healer and miracle worker, makes it quite clear that Lazarus was dead in the flesh, and that Christ brought him back to life in the flesh. So you would have to cover the entire chapter John 11 basically sentence by sentence, to analyse the episode in context to try to make it say something different.
I agree. Do you personally believe this is a historical account, or do you just enjoy reading it for literature?
Would you argue passages from The Lord of the Rings in the Tolkien section of a literary forum, without having read the book?
Ah! The LOTR. My other Bible :)
I believe a person misses a lot by not reading it at least once.
I agree, particularly if one is in the West. The Bible permeates our culture, even if one is not a Christian. I think Biblical literacy is part of being an educated person. There are so many books and stuff that you simply can't understand without the background.

FWIW, I've also read the religious texts of other religions as well.
 

Sumadji

Member
Do you personally believe this is a historical account, or do you just enjoy reading it for literature?
I don't know. Perhaps Jesus raised Lazarus, perhaps it's just a story. As a Catholic I was brought up with the New Testament. I believed things when I was younger that I question now. But I don't think the episode can be interpreted as other than physical death and resurrection, in context of the chapter and Jesus's other miracles as a healer?
 
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jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's not meant to be "antagonistic," meaning to argue with you. It's designed to show my contempt for Christians ( or anyone else) that hurt others, and then people in their religion try to pretend it never happened.. For example, I don't know which was worse about the Catholic sex scandal: the actual harm done by the pedos, or the way the Church covered it up and allowed it to proliferate.

It's my feelings, and I have a right to express them, just as you do yours.
Intentional or not, it is antagonistic. ("Antagonistic" means actively opposing or showing unfriendliness towards something or someone.) A synonym is "showing contempt".

I have no idea what you're referring to when you write "Christians ( or anyone else) that hurt others, and then people in their religion try to pretend it never happened." Are you referring to "the Catholic sex scandal"? The Catholic church, in an isolated incident, tried to cover up the sexual abuse and reached $121.5 million settlement agreement.

Taking one single example to prove a point is nonsense! The New Mexico Catholics did wrong and paid for it. No religion is so pure that none of their members have never harmed others.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The New Testament consists of 27 books, which cover the entire context. It's a woven tapestry that creates the whole picture. So it's like taking a couple of threads, or parts of threads, from the entire weave and looking at them under a magnifying glass.

Would you try to analyse passages from the Quran or the Avesta without having read the whole book, at least once? And would you disregard the opinions of Muslims and Zoroastrians who know the book well?
I might try to analyse passages from the Quran or the Avesta without having read the whole book, at least once, but I would not disregard the opinions of Muslims and Zoroastrians who know the book well. That is not the same as the Bible. The Bahai Writings have explained what a lot of the Bible means and those explanations supersede any interpretation any Christian may have.

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


Misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Bible has been a big problem since the very beginning. Christians disagreed as to what the Bible meant and that is why there are so many different sects of Christianity. I believe that Christians have misinterpreted much of the Bible because they did not have the key to unlock the meaning, and that is understandable because it was prophesied in Daniel 12 that the Book would be sealed up until the time of the end, meaning nobody would really understand it. This might not apply to the entire Bible, but I think it at least applies to the prophecies.

Note that Dan 12:13 says "at the end of the days.” This chapter is about what will happen at the time of the end, when Christ returns.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Baha’is believe that the 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions:
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44

Unsealing the Book means we can now understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before by reading the Baha’i Writings, thus fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 12:4 that knowledge shall be increased.
I can only imagine.
No need to imagine. Below is my interpretation of the Lazarus resurrection ‘story.’

Jesus did not say that the body of Lazarus would rise again. He said rise: 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Then apparently Martha assumed Jesus meant the body: 24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Then Jesus said that He was the resurrection and the life and that whoever believes in Him will never die.
I believe that Jesus was talking about the eternal life of the soul, NOT the eternal life of the physical body.

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Then Martha said she believed in Jesus and that He was the Son of God: 27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

When Jesus said: 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die He was referring to spiritual death, not physical death, because eventually everyone dies physically.

The following verses congruent with John 11:25-26 refer to the eternal life of the soul, not the eternal life of the body.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

However the context of the passage, in the context of the NT and of Jesus as a healer and miracle worker, makes it quite clear that Lazarus was dead in the flesh, and that Christ brought him back to life in the flesh. So you would have to cover the entire chapter John 11 basically sentence by sentence, to analyse the episode in context to try to make it say something different.
That is obvious to you but it is not obvious to me. See my interpretation above.
Would you argue passages from The Lord of the Rings in the Tolkien section of a literary forum, without having read the book? From study notes and wikipedia. Or Hamlet in the Shakespeare Debates section?
Probably not, but I explained above why I do not need to read the entire Bible.
The Bible is a prodigious collection of writings: prophecy, history, stories and poetry and wisdom. It's the best selling book in the world, with an estimated 5 to 7 billion copies sold. It's been printed in almost every language, including braille, and has been the world's best-selling book every year since it was first written.

There are paradoxes and contradictions and differing accounts. All part of it.

I believe a person misses a lot by not reading it at least once.
I have absolutely no interest in reading the Bible and I would consider reading it cover to cover a complete waste of my time.
I have not even read all of the Baha'i Writings, so why would I read the Bible? I am not a Christian.

What I think of the Bible I will not post on this forum. I said it once years ago and I could never live it down.
Suffice to say that I do not believe the Bible is "the Word of God." I'll just leave it at that for now.
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I have no idea what you're referring to when you write "Christians ( or anyone else) that hurt others, and then people in their religion try to pretend it never happened." Are you referring to "the Catholic sex scandal"? The Catholic church, in an isolated incident,
No it's not. Not by a longshot. You may be unaware that the Southern Baptists are going through the same scandal: sex abuse within their churches, and the willingness to cover it up.

I had one friend who attended a Baptist church and was walking from choir practice to her car, when one of the men in the choir tried to rape her. When she took it to the board, instead of dealing with this man, they blamed HER, saying that if she just wouldn't smile so much, she would not give the wrong impression.

I had another friend who was Assembly of God. The pastor's son was molesting her young daughter. When she went to the board, she was told to shut up and stop making problems. They kicked her out of the church. Nothing was done regarding the pastor's son.

It seems that all institutions try to cover up rather than deal with perps. Not just christians, and not even just religions. We are talking about boy scouts, little league, and schools, all of which have had the same scandal. Wherever you have children, you will find pedophiles, and wherever you have institutions, you will have coverups.

If you care about it, here is a link to the Southern Baptist scandal:
"An investigative report into the Southern Baptist Convention, America’s largest Protestant denomination, found sexual abuse victims within the church were stonewalled and faced "outright hostility" by leadership, as suspected perpetrators were allowed to remain in leadership positions."
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No it's not. Not by a longshot. You may be unaware that the Southern Baptists are going through the same scandal: sex abuse within their churches, and the willingness to cover it up.

I had one friend who attended a Baptist church and was walking from choir practice to her car, when one of the men in the choir tried to rape her. When she took it to the board, instead of dealing with this man, they blamed HER, saying that if she just wouldn't smile so much, she would not give the wrong impression.

I had another friend who was Assembly of God. The pastor's son was molesting her young daughter. When she went to the board, she was told to shut up and stop making problems. They kicked her out of the church. Nothing was done regarding the pastor's son.

It seems that all institutions try to cover up rather than deal with perps. Not just christians, and not even just religions. We are talking about boy scouts, little league, and schools, all of which have had the same scandal. Wherever you have children, you will find pedophiles, and wherever you have institutions, you will have coverups.

If you care about it, here is a link to the Southern Baptist scandal:
"An investigative report into the Southern Baptist Convention, America’s largest Protestant denomination, found sexual abuse victims within the church were stonewalled and faced "outright hostility" by leadership, as suspected perpetrators were allowed to remain in leadership positions."
I am not sure what you're trying to prove. ISOLATED INCIDENTS ARE NOT THE NORM; THEY ARE INFREQUENT.

Do some denominations try to protect their leadership by covering up incidents? Yes, but THOSE INCIDENTS ARE RARE.

What are you trying to prove, and why???

Finally, what is your personal obsession with this?
 

Sumadji

Member
Jesus did not say that the body of Lazarus would rise again. He said rise: 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Then apparently Martha assumed Jesus meant the body: 24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Then Jesus said that He was the resurrection and the life and that whoever believes in Him will never die.
I believe that Jesus was talking about the eternal life of the soul, NOT the eternal life of the physical body.

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Then Martha said she believed in Jesus and that He was the Son of God: 27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

When Jesus said: 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die He was referring to spiritual death, not physical death, because eventually everyone dies physically.
Why stop there? The rest of the chapter goes on to make clear that Lazarus was physically dead in the flesh, and physically raised in the flesh by Jesus in a public miracle that was the cause of the decision to have him killed.

She said to him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

And when she had said these things, she went her way and secretly called Mary her sister, saying, “The Teacher has come and is calling for you.” As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly and came to him. Now Jesus had not yet come into the town, but was in the place where Martha met him. Then the Jews who were with her in the house, and comforting her, when they saw that Mary rose up quickly and went out, followed her, saying, “She is going to the tomb to weep there.”

Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying to him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.”

Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, he groaned in the spirit and was troubled. And he said, “Where have you laid him?”

They said to him, “Lord, come and see.”

Jesus wept. Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”

And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?”

Then Jesus, again groaning in himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”

Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”

Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.” Now when he had said these things, he cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in him. But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did. Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. If we let him alone like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”

And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for that nation only, but also that he would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

Then, from that day on, they plotted to put him to death. Therefore Jesus no longer walked openly among the Jews, but went from there into the country near the wilderness, to a city called Ephraim, and there remained with his disciples.
John 11: 27-54
 
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jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Why stop there? The rest of the chapter goes on to make clear that Lazarus was physically dead in the flesh, and physically raised in the flesh by Jesus in a public miracle that was the cause of the decision to have him killed.

She said to him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

And when she had said these things, she went her way and secretly called Mary her sister, saying, “The Teacher has come and is calling for you.” As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly and came to him. Now Jesus had not yet come into the town, but was in the place where Martha met him. Then the Jews who were with her in the house, and comforting her, when they saw that Mary rose up quickly and went out, followed her, saying, “She is going to the tomb to weep there.”

Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying to him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.”

Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, he groaned in the spirit and was troubled. And he said, “Where have you laid him?”

They said to him, “Lord, come and see.”

Jesus wept. Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”

And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?”

Then Jesus, again groaning in himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”

Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”

Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.” Now when he had said these things, he cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in him. But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did. Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. If we let him alone like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”

And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for that nation only, but also that he would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

Then, from that day on, they plotted to put him to death. Therefore Jesus no longer walked openly among the Jews, but went from there into the country near the wilderness, to a city called Ephraim, and there remained with his disciples.
John 11: 27-54
@Trailblazer is always trying to falsify what the Bible clearly says. He will go to any length to distort the meaning of God's word.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I might try to analyse passages from the Quran or the Avesta without having read the whole book, at least once, but I would not disregard the opinions of Muslims and Zoroastrians who know the book well. That is not the same as the Bible. The Bahai Writings have explained what a lot of the Bible means and those explanations supersede any interpretation any Christian may have.

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


Misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Bible has been a big problem since the very beginning. Christians disagreed as to what the Bible meant and that is why there are so many different sects of Christianity. I believe that Christians have misinterpreted much of the Bible because they did not have the key to unlock the meaning, and that is understandable because it was prophesied in Daniel 12 that the Book would be sealed up until the time of the end, meaning nobody would really understand it. This might not apply to the entire Bible, but I think it at least applies to the prophecies.

Note that Dan 12:13 says "at the end of the days.” This chapter is about what will happen at the time of the end, when Christ returns.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Baha’is believe that the 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions:
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44

Unsealing the Book means we can now understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before by reading the Baha’i Writings, thus fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 12:4 that knowledge shall be increased.

This is from the site you posted (Some Answered Questions, Page 36-44)
Afterward, in verse 11, it is said: “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolation be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.” 7
The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muḥammad in the 44 country of Ḥijáz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muḥammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadíjah and Ibn Nawfal. 8 After three years it was announced. And Bahá’u’lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muḥammad, caused His manifestation to be known. 9
Does this mean that the start of the ministry of Muhammad was when the daily sacrifice was taken away?
Does it mean that the time when Baha'u'llah announced his ministry was when the abomination that makes desolate was set up?
This is what the Bahai interpretation of those verses from Daniel seem to be saying.

No need to imagine. Below is my interpretation of the Lazarus resurrection ‘story.’

Jesus did not say that the body of Lazarus would rise again. He said rise: 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Then apparently Martha assumed Jesus meant the body: 24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Then Jesus said that He was the resurrection and the life and that whoever believes in Him will never die.
I believe that Jesus was talking about the eternal life of the soul, NOT the eternal life of the physical body.

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Then Martha said she believed in Jesus and that He was the Son of God: 27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

When Jesus said: 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die He was referring to spiritual death, not physical death, because eventually everyone dies physically.

The following verses congruent with John 11:25-26 refer to the eternal life of the soul, not the eternal life of the body.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Yes the resurrection of the dead is a bodily resurrection and that is all it can be since if a spirit soul goes to eternal life in heaven when the body dies, that is not a resurrection.

That is obvious to you but it is not obvious to me. See my interpretation above.

Yes you have interpreted part of the chapter but the rest of the chapter does tell us that Jesus brought Lazarus back to life physically. Have you an interpretation of that?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I see, so Christians accidentally sin and then they have a get-out-of-jail card in Jesus. While those who don't believe in God are intentionally doing things in order to sin, despite us not accepting those as being sins.

So the difference between the two from what I can see is that Christians have an excuse for doing wrong due to their religion and are therefore forgiven. While the rest of us will be punished for it.

Pretty lucky that we don't have Christians laws in societies, because a lot of murderers etc. would go free using that excuse :D
I believe Christians do not have an excuse to sin. God isn't stupid. He can see through that ruse.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why stop there? The rest of the chapter goes on to make clear that Lazarus was physically dead in the flesh, and physically raised in the flesh by Jesus in a public miracle that was the cause of the decision to have him killed.

She said to him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

And when she had said these things, she went her way and secretly called Mary her sister, saying, “The Teacher has come and is calling for you.” As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly and came to him. Now Jesus had not yet come into the town, but was in the place where Martha met him. Then the Jews who were with her in the house, and comforting her, when they saw that Mary rose up quickly and went out, followed her, saying, “She is going to the tomb to weep there.”

Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying to him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.”

Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, he groaned in the spirit and was troubled. And he said, “Where have you laid him?”

They said to him, “Lord, come and see.”

Jesus wept. Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”

And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?”

Then Jesus, again groaning in himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”

Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”

Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.” Now when he had said these things, he cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in him. But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did. Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. If we let him alone like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”

And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for that nation only, but also that he would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

Then, from that day on, they plotted to put him to death. Therefore Jesus no longer walked openly among the Jews, but went from there into the country near the wilderness, to a city called Ephraim, and there remained with his disciples.
John 11: 27-54
There are lots of stories in the NT, but there is no logical reason to believe that any of them are true.
But believers will believe anyway. That's the nature of belief.

I am not denying that Jesus could do miracles, but so what? If a man is raised from the dead he will eventually die anyway.

Christians believe that just because some people were allegedly raised from the dead, and because Jesus was allegedly raised from the dead, they will also be raised from the dead.
The whole Christian belief about being raised from the dead physically is such a crock and it is believed because of these 'stories.'
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
@Trailblazer is always trying to falsify what the Bible clearly says. He will go to any length to distort the meaning of God's word.
I already told you that I am a she.
The New Testament is not God's word, it is the words of men who never even saw Jesus. What a crock.

 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I believe spirits do not have bodies.
That is correct. A spirit, by definition, does not have a body of its own. It does, however, exist within a body, as the Bible shows many, many times.

When a person is "born again", i.e., accepts Jesus Christ as her/his Savior, s/he is given the Holy Spirit.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I believe Christians do not have an excuse to sin. God isn't stupid. He can see through that ruse.
I believe that @Nimos is a troll, i.e., he posts messages that are deliberately inflammatory. I wouldn't waste my time responding to his absurd provocations.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This is from the site you posted (Some Answered Questions, Page 36-44)
Afterward, in verse 11, it is said: “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolation be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.” 7
The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muḥammad in the 44 country of Ḥijáz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muḥammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadíjah and Ibn Nawfal. 8 After three years it was announced. And Bahá’u’lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muḥammad, caused His manifestation to be known. 9
Does this mean that the start of the ministry of Muhammad was when the daily sacrifice was taken away?
Does it mean that the time when Baha'u'llah announced his ministry was when the abomination that makes desolate was set up?
This is what the Bahai interpretation of those verses from Daniel seem to be saying.
No, it was in 1844 when the Bab announced that he was the new messenger of God that we would see “the abomination of desolation” foretold by Daniel the Prophet. The Bab told His followers that an even greater messenger of God would come in nine years later, and that was Baha'u'llah.

Three specific promises were made by Jesus to His disciples. Jesus said that when these three things came to pass, Christ would return to earth.

The first promise: His Gospel would be preached everywhere on earth.
The second promise: The “times of the Gentiles” would be fulfilled, and the Jews would return to Israel (Palestine).
The third promise: All mankind would see “the abomination of desolation” foretold by Daniel the Prophet.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The third promise: All mankind would see “the abomination of desolation” foretold by Daniel the Prophet.

I found the third promise of Christ to be the most interesting of all. It was given in the twenty-fourth chapter of Matthew. The third promise was again given in direct answer to the questions of His disciples: “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming?” (Matthew 24:3)

Christ foretold that ‘iniquity would abound’ in that day, and that the ‘love of many shall wax cold’; then He makes His third promise in these words: “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth let him understand.)” (Matthew 24:15.)

Thus, Daniel prophesied that two thousand three hundred days (2,300) would pass before the sanctuary would be cleansed. Following this time, all things would be made pure again. Before this time, the people would have fallen into a state of ‘abomination’ without love for God or man; then the Messiah would appear and restore their Faith and the purity of their belief. This was the general conclusion.
When would this take place? Daniel said it would come to pass in 2,300 days. In prophecy, this becomes 2,300 years.

Yes the resurrection of the dead is a bodily resurrection and that is all it can be since if a spirit soul goes to eternal life in heaven when the body dies, that is not a resurrection.
Christians believe that just because some people were allegedly raised from the dead, and because Jesus was allegedly raised from the dead, they will also be raised from the dead.
The whole Christian belief about being raised from the dead physically is believed because of the 'stories' told in the NT.

The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life.
(Heaven and Hell, p. 351)

What the Christian above wrote above is based upon the Bible. The physical body returns to the earth and the spirit returns to God, who resides in the spiritual world.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

What makes us human is our soul, not our physical body, and our soul continues to live forever. All of who we are -- our personality -- will survive the resurrection, except the physical body. The death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another. When the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in the spiritual realm of existence.
Yes you have interpreted part of the chapter but the rest of the chapter does tell us that Jesus brought Lazarus back to life physically. Have you an interpretation of that?
No, I do not have an interpretation of that part. Suffice to say I believe it was only a story that the NT writers told, nothing that Jesus ever said and nothing that ever happened.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe that @Nimos is a troll, i.e., he posts messages that are deliberately inflammatory. I wouldn't waste my time responding to his absurd provocations.
@Nimos is not a troll, he is an intelligent atheist. I have known him and posted to him since I joined this forum about six years ago.
 
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