That's fine. Nobody says you have to believe it. But neither can you turn it around to try to make it say the opposite of what it does say?
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A Christian believes --------------------------------?
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Nimos
Well-Known Member
Think that is the first time I have been called a troll, by someone that disagrees with me.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
If you can get any other atheist or person of religion (non-Christian) here on the forum to read your post that I replied to and see how they understand it, then I think you will see that I'm not the only one that would understand it that way.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
I agree, yet they do sin, but not intentionally. And can apparently get away with it, due to Jesus.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Don't you think that is very telling? Logically speaking, if you were a troll someone would have called you that a long time ago.Think that is the first time I have been called a troll, by someone that disagrees with me.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
yeah, I guess soDon't you think that is very telling? Logically speaking, if you were a troll someone would have called you that a long time ago.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Who was the abomination of desolation that was seen in 1844?
There was no sanctuary or most holy place in 1844. The Temple had been destroyed in 70AD.
There is no reason to start the 2300 days in 457 BC except that it sort of fits with 1844. BUT Jesus was born in about 4 BC so that messes up all the mathematics of your link. ( Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44 ) which wants Jesus to have been born in 0 or 1BC or 1 AD.
Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks starts with the 444BC edict and this makes it work in prophesying about the coming of Jesus and His death etc.
Of course.
In Genesis we are told that man is both spirit and body. Jesus told us that if our body is killed, our soul lives on (Matthew 10:28) but the death of the body is not a resurrection and was not in Jesus day. Jesus rose from the dead bodily, that was His resurrection and it is what Jesus told us would happen. The only way forward for Baha'is is to reject the Bible.
So you reject the story of the resurrection of Lazarus by Jesus.
So? It doesn't matter if you and a bunch of other atheists or non-Christians disagree with me or not. That does make you and them correct.
I was an atheist once and denied the existence of God, but then His presence was dramatically revealed to me. I learned in an instant that God exists (in fact the Trinity exists) and that my atheist attitude was totally wrong. You may think that you know th truth about God, but you don't.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is not a who, it is a what.
In Matthew 24 Jesus explains what we will see.
The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times
24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
I don't get into discussions of the mathematics since I don't know the Bible well enough.
Apparently Christians did the math the same way as Baha'is, which is why there was a great expectation for Christ to return in 1844.
I did not say that the death of the body is a resurrection. Paul explains what happens when we die and I don't reject that, I believe it and cite it often.
1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation
35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?”
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
So, when our physical bodies die we are transformed (call it resurrected if you like) into spiritual bodies and we pass from this world to the spiritual world. What Paul said is congruent with what I posted before:
But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life.
(Heaven and Hell, p. 351)
https://swedenborg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/swedenborg_foundation_heaven_and_hell.pdf
I view that as a story. Nobody can know what happened, and it does not matter, because it does not mean that anyone else will be resurrected that way. If it happened it was a miracle performed by Jesus but that is not going to happen to anyone else.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I don't think the abomination of desolation occurred in 1844. I think it occurred in 167 BCE, when the Greeks sacrificed a pig to Zeus in the Jewish Temple.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
When it happened depends upon what you think the abomination of desolation is referring to.
What you think the abomination of desolation is referring to and why do you think it occurred in167 BCE?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
From what I've learned from various is historians, especially Jewish ones, is that the book of Daniel was written during the Maccabean war. Yes, I know that the setting for the book is during the Babylonian captivity. Today we would refer to this kind of story as Historical Fiction. It's purpose was "prophetic validation" of the Maccabean cause.
Far from looking forward in time, it looks back in time. The "abomination that causes desolation" would refer to an event that was a profound sacrilege and destruction. Clearly the most sacrilegious event of the entire Maccabean era was the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus IV, when a pig (unclean animal) was sacrificed to Zeus (a false god) in the Jewish temple (#1 most holy spot in all Judea). You just don't get worse than that. Indeed this outrageous event was the catalyst that ignited the Maccabean war.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Who can a "what" stand in the holy place, especially when the holy place is part of the Temple and there was no Temple in 1844?
What I am writing is not mathematics.
I made a mistake, it is 457BC which is the correct date for the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. However there is no reason to begin the 2300 day prophecy then and there is no reason to make the 2300 day prophecy into a day for a year prophecy.
The Christians in expectation in 1844 made the same mistakes I suppose.
There was no sanctuary to cleanse in 1844 since was no Temple.
There is no reason for the Baha'is to begin the 1290 day prophecy where they do also. There was no Temple in Muhammads time and so no regular burnt offering,,,,,,,,,,,, and of course the abomination that makes desolate being set up in 1844 has nothing to do with a series of events in history (earthquakes, dark days etc) and the abomination is to be set up in the holy place, iow in the Temple.
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.
Since 1Cor 15 is talking about the sort of bodies the dead will have when they are raised (resurrected) you have made an error. They do not get their resurrection bodies when they die, all that happens is that their soul leaves their physical body. They get their resurrection bodies when they are resurrected with new bodies.
People who read the gospels and believe them know what happened. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
This verse is referring to what you (the reader) will see, ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ when standing in the holy place.
It means:
“So when the reader is standing in the holy place and sees ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel the reader will understand—
It is mathematics and Bible. I can do mathematics but I can't do Bible since I do not know the Bible well enough.
Those are the same.
They get their resurrection bodies when they die, which happens when their soul leaves their physical body.
They get their resurrection bodies when they die and are resurrected with new bodies.
Nobody is resurrected from the grave with new bodies.
People who read the gospels and believe them believe they know what happened. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead.
Brian2
Veteran Member
You can twist the meaning if you want, but only the priests could go into the holy place, the sanctuary of the Temple and most importantly there was no Temple after 70AD and still there is no Temple, so there was no sanctuary in 1844 or in the time of Muhammad and there was no daily sacrifice after 70AD.
Yes I know that you do not want to know what the Bible means, only what Baha'i tells you.
But you keep arguing about the meaning of the Bible anyway, even when you say you don't know the Bible and even when you are told what the Biblical meaning is. (there was no temple or sactuary so the prophecies was not about anything that happened in 1844 or the time of Muhammad etc......... this is easy to understand even for a Bible illiterate)
What you are saying here is not taught anywhere in the Bible, including 1Corinthians 15 which you are so fond of quoting but which denies this teaching. If you can find it taught in the Bible then show me where.
Those who reject the Bible believe they know that Jesus did not raise Lazarus from the dead,,,,, resurrect Lazarus.
TheFragranceOfHoliness
Active Member
Jesus raised me from the dead.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You are correct. You are right that only the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur. You are also correct that only the priests were allowed in the inner courtyard where all the other sacrifices were made. Men were confined to the outer courtyard, and women to the women's courtyard, and unless I'm mistaken (it's been known to happen) they couldn't even see the sacrifices happening. Unless "the reader" is a priest, he wouldn't see the abomination that causes desolation.
Yeah, that is
In some Buddhist traditions, stories tell of monks and bodhisattvas performing miracles, including bringing the dead back to life. Are you inclined to believe those stories? And what standard do you use across the board to determine if someone has truly been raised from the dead or or if it was just a creative fiction?
See, my standard is pretty simple. It just doesn't happen. Once someone is brain dead and their body starts to rot, they don't come back. So it really doesn't matter to me what the source of the story is, it is not factual. That doesn't mean though that a resurrection story can't be enormously deep and meaningful on a figurative level.
Actually, resurrection does happen. You just believe it's not factual -- with no proof. The Bible says that not only was Jesus Christ resurrected, but He appeared to people several times and had discussions with them. When Thomas questioned Jesus' resurrection, Jesus questioned his inability to face facts. (Just like you!)
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The resurrection of Jesus was only a story that men wrote. Stories are not facts.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It is the people who make claims that must prove their claims. You claim there will be a resurrection, and even that there are people who have already resurrected, but you have no evidence. All you have is a sacred text written by men. Religious texts are not *evidence.* Evidence means and finding and documenting cases of resurrection, such as with medical equipment certifying brain death, or evidence that the body began to rot, with further evidence that after that, they were medically verified to be walking around (IOW DNA evidence to prove it is not some other person who never died). When you can supply that sort of evidence, please come talk to me.