A Classic Example of an Ethically Bankrupt Religion

[angellous_evangellous]

It's distressing to me when people of any religion want to completely forgo ethics in the name of whatever god or religious system that they choose. I am disappointed beyond words to see that such dribble is permissible anywhere, but it is propagated freely by evangelicals (such as those Christians who celebrated 9/11 and Katrina as God's judgment) and other fundamentalists.

Here is a classic example of an ethically bankrupt religious statement. I argue that such a statement is vile, inhuman, and unethical, not to mention more than a little anti-Semetic, ignorant, and theologically destructive.

Think of the great good that has come from probably the most tragic event in recent history - the Holocaust. First, it revealed to use a great deal about the nature of man. Second, it serves as a constant reminder of the mercy God shows us every day by allowing us to enjoy the universe, created for us. Third, it makes God's promise to allow the Jews to live until the end of creation all the more amazing considering just how close they came to being wiped out. These are surely only a very small sample of the good things that have come about from the Holocaust. I have no idea if these were God's reasons, but if we really believe that our life here on earth is only a blink compared to our soul's eternity, killing millions of people to build even one person's faith can easily be justified.

See also: Is Christianity Ethically Bankrupt?

 

[matthew.william]

It's distressing to me when people of any religion want to completely forgo ethics in the name of whatever god or religious system that they choose. I am disappointed beyond words to see that such dribble is permissible anywhere, but it is propagated freely by evangelicals (such as those Christians who celebrated 9/11 and Katrina as God's judgment) and other fundamentalists.

Here is a classic example of an ethically bankrupt religious statement. I argue that such a statement is vile, inhuman, and unethical, not to mention more than a little anti-Semetic, ignorant, and theologically destructive.



See also: Is Christianity Ethically Bankrupt?

I think statements like this are why there is so much contempt for the Christian faith, not to mention an excuse for any action. Who's to say that me killing a man or a group of people so that one might find faith is immoral? That's scary.

~matthew.william~

 

[ChristineES]

I am a Christian and I don't think that any killing like the holocaust can be justified. Don't lump us all together, please. Yeshua (Jesus) would never approve of the 9/11 attacks or the holocaust. 9/11 was not the work of Muslims, it was actually the work of some demented people who called themselves Muslims. That is what I believe.

 

[Scuba Pete]

It's so easy to blame the religion when the sin belongs to the person making the statement. This is EXACTLY how the Nazis blamed the Jews for the crucifixion. We don't have to make their mistake all over again, do we?

 

[kmkemp]

Are you suggesting that God could not have stopped the Holocaust?

If you believe that God is omnipotent, then there must have been some reason why he allowed it to occur, right? I brought forth several possible reasons. Good things that have come about.

Now, for the part of my statement that is highlighted. My logic is based on simple math. One person's soul will survive for ETERNITY. Saving it is not worth killing millions of people? Those millions of people are only moving on to eternity. It is not like we are condemning them to hell. I am not celebrating the Holocaust, nor am I claiming I know God's reasons. If you don't think that the spiritual battle to win people's souls is more important than our current state of suffering, perhaps you need to pay closer attention to Jesus and Paul.

 

[Wandered Off]

If you believe that God is omnipotent, then there must have been some reason why he allowed it to occur, right?

And if you believe God is omnipotent, there there must have been a way that same reason could have been accomplished without the suffering, right?

 

[kmkemp]

I think statements like this are why there is so much contempt for the Christian faith, not to mention an excuse for any action. Who's to say that me killing a man or a group of people so that one might find faith is immoral? That's scary.

~matthew.william~

I would love to know how my statement can be used to excuse any action. The nazis are certainly under judgment for what they did, but God allowed them to do it all the same. Scripture is very clear.

"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of God," Matthew 10:29

 

[ChristineES]

Since huamnkind decided to live without God, God let humans rule themselves. That is the only answer I have about those awful things that have happened in the past and present.

Jesus Himself said we should not fear men who can only harm your body, but to fear God. It is hard not to be afraid when your own life is at stake (just ask Simon Peter about that one, when he denied Jesus 3 times). There are no easy answers to any of this.

But it is wrong to blame a whole group of people when it was only a few of that group who made the bad decision.

 

[kmkemp]

And if you believe God is omnipotent, there there must have been a way that same reason could have been accomplished without the suffering, right?

As C.S. Lewis said, an all-good God would necessarily give man free will above all else. Suffering is a result of our free will. (original sin)

 

[Quagmire]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmkemp
Think of the great good that has come from probably the most tragic event in recent history - the Holocaust. First, it revealed to use a great deal about the nature of man. Second, it serves as a constant reminder of the mercy God shows us every day by allowing us to enjoy the universe, created for us. Third, it makes God's promise to allow the Jews to live until the end of creation all the more amazing considering just how close they came to being wiped out. These are surely only a very small sample of the good things that have come about from the Holocaust. I have no idea if these were God's reasons, but if we really believe that our life here on earth is only a blink compared to our soul's eternity, killing millions of people to build even one person's faith can easily be justified.

It occurs to me that Kmkemp isn't defending the actions of the Nazi party in this but is actually just trying to put forth an hypothesis for why God would allow something like the hollocaust to happen, in which case I see his point.

We're finite beings with finite perception and really, IMO, you can't judge anything unless you can see the big picture (in this case God's plan/motives).



"killing millions of people to build even one person's faith can easily be justified" is, I think, a viable explanation if we're using it to speculate about what God's motives are. This attitude is only dangerous if we, as humans, feel entitled to use "it's God's will" as an excuse to justify our own actions.


http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21922

 

[kmkemp]

Since huamnkind decided to live without God, God let humans rule themselves. That is the only answer I have about those awful things that have happened in the past and present.

Jesus Himself said we should not fear men who can only harm your body, but to fear God. It is hard not to be afraid when your own life is at stake (just ask Simon Peter about that one, when he denied Jesus 3 times). There are no easy answers to any of this.

But it is wrong to blame a whole group of people when it was only a few of that group who made the bad decision.

No doubt. I have a friend that is always talking about the evils of Christianity and all of the cruel things that we've done in the past, but he never seems to comprehend that those were not Christians doing those things. (obviously it's possible that a few acts could have been done by Christians, though... who knows the state of a man's soul, but God)

 

[Ðanisty]

*MOD POST*

Folks, please remember to address the issue rather than making personal comments.
​

 

[Sonic247]

I don't think kmkemps statement is antisemetic, he says that it shows how God preserved the Jews even against such ruthless enemies and therfor acknowledges them as God's chosen people. The holocaust is something that should make us fear God, and the deep hatred of the world against Israel is further proof that the devil rules the world and hates everything precious to God

 

[Mister_T]

The holocaust is something that should make us fear God,

If God saved people from the Holocaust, why should we fear him? Last I checked the Christian God is a God of love, not a God of fear.

 

[Sonic247]

The fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom, God is a God that will judge his enemies.

 

[McBell]

Are you suggesting that God could not have stopped the Holocaust?

If you believe that God is omnipotent, then there must have been some reason why he allowed it to occur, right? I brought forth several possible reasons. Good things that have come about.

Now, for the part of my statement that is highlighted. My logic is based on simple math. One person's soul will survive for ETERNITY. Saving it is not worth killing millions of people? Those millions of people are only moving on to eternity. It is not like we are condemning them to hell. I am not celebrating the Holocaust, nor am I claiming I know God's reasons. If you don't think that the spiritual battle to win people's souls is more important than our current state of suffering, perhaps you need to pay closer attention to Jesus and Paul.

Thou shalt not Kill -- unless it is to save your soul...
I must have missed that exception in the Bible.

 

[Reverend Rick]

God judges man, not the other way around. It is pretty arrogant to judge God. There could be consequences.

Another point I want to make is, the lack of basic religious knowledge some folks have is terribly apparent. I guess they never sat in a church pew ever. I see children 7 or 8 years old that understand more about morality and right and wrong. We have a moral imperative to teach our children right from wrong. I guess someone missed that responsibility.

 

[Mister_T]

The fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom, God is a God that will judge his enemies.

1)That doesn't answer my question.
2)"Fear the Lord" is not the message of the Gospel (you know, the Christian doctrine).
3)God is also a god who will judge all his followers.

 

[Mister_T]

Another point I want to make is, the lack of basic religious knowledge some folks have is terribly apparent.

Followers and non-followers alike.

I guess they never sat in a church pew ever.

Some people who sit in church pews act like they've never sat in one.

 

[kmkemp]

If God saved people from the Holocaust, why should we fear him? Last I checked the Christian God is a God of love, not a God of fear.

Luke 12:4-5 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."