A Classic Example of an Ethically Bankrupt Religion

[Gentoo]

I am proud to be God fearing and would suggest you all might join me in this fear.

Shouldn't one love god rather than fear him?

 

[Sonic247]

God said he would repay his enemies to there face, and that is a scary thing. If you love God then there is nothing to fear, but the Bible wasn't just written for people who love God.

 

[Mister_T]

The verses don't contradict each other, even if you think the Bible has contradictions someone wouldn't write them right next to each other, it's a contrast God is a God of love and of judgement. And to take it in the context of the whole Bible it tells how God will judge and save.

Taken into context they don't. But if you isolate them they do.

Isolating verses is very misleading. I can isolate verses that say that God doesn't exist.

God said he would repay his enemies to there face, and that is a scary thing. If you love God then there is nothing to fear, but the Bible wasn't just written for people who love God.

I don't disagree. But nor is the Bible a paddle that you hold over "bad" peoples bottoms and threaten to spank them with it if they misbehave. That would have a bunch of impure hearts in heaven with the wrong motives for being there.

But anyways, this is getting way off topic. Let's get back on track shall we?

 

[Mister_T]

They are not contradictory.

They can appear that way. Read what I said to Sonic about isolating verses.

That is not a claim that the central message of the gospel is love. It is saying that fearing God is not Biblical or a part of the gospel. Perhaps I am misinterpreting. If so, I'm sorry. It was not my intention.

I think we may have misunderstood each other. Fear of God is indeed Biblical and is part of the Gospel. Jesus preached about Hell more than anybody.

I was confused by what you were saying and needed some clarification.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I do not fear God: perfect love casts out fear. Spiritual infants fear God.

I don't believe that God causes hurt and suffering. However, he has tried to teach us right from wrong since time immemorium and he allows us to make our own choices, right or wrong.

We live with the consequences of not only OUR decisions, but also with the consequences of the decisions of others. Fair? Why not? We learn causality from it all and that helps us to see that God alone is good and perfect.

Man and man alone perpetrated the Holocaust. God never intended for it to be an abject lesson, no matter how we twist it. It is an example of man's cruelty, just as 911 was an example of man's cruelty. Just like then, as also in Biblical times, when something really, really catastrophic happened, man tries to BLAME God. The whole of the OT is dedicated to blaming God for Israel's foriegn policy disastors.

 

[Sonic247]

Taken into context they don't. But if you isolate them they do.

Isolating verses is very misleading. I can isolate verses that say that God doesn't exist.

It's even better to use parts of verses-

..continue in sin that grace may abound

..vengance is mine

 

[Scuba Pete]

God said he would repay his enemies to there face,

Man said that God said. Here's a news flash: Man is known to lie to cover his butt!

 

[Sonic247]

So do you believe the Bible is the word of God?
I don't want to argue about that now I was just wondering.

 

[Scuba Pete]

The Bible doesn't claim to be the Word excepting for a few places. It's a blog of man searching for God. It doesn't claim to be perfect either.

 

[ChristineES]

The whole point of that verse is that if one sins that he should fear God. If your sins are forgiven, you would have no reason for fear. Jesus died for us so that our sins would be forgiven. So it is not contradictory.

 

[kmkemp]

The Bible doesn't claim to be the Word excepting for a few places. It's a blog of man searching for God. It doesn't claim to be perfect either.

Claiming to be the word of God is tantamount to claiming perfection, no? And what difference does it make if it is only mentioned in a few places? Do you want every chapter to start off with, "this is infaliable God-breathed"? (and yes, I realize the Bible wasn't originally written in chapters before someone reminds me)

Man and man alone perpetrated the Holocaust. God never intended for it to be an abject lesson, no matter how we twist it. It is an example of man's cruelty, just as 911 was an example of man's cruelty.

Careful there.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return there without watering the earth and making it bear and sprout, and furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; so will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; it will not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. "
Isaiah 55: 8-11 NAS

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Are you suggesting that God could not have stopped the Holocaust?

If you believe that God is omnipotent, then there must have been some reason why he allowed it to occur, right? I brought forth several possible reasons. Good things that have come about.

Now, for the part of my statement that is highlighted. My logic is based on simple math. One person's soul will survive for ETERNITY. Saving it is not worth killing millions of people? Those millions of people are only moving on to eternity. It is not like we are condemning them to hell. I am not celebrating the Holocaust, nor am I claiming I know God's reasons. If you don't think that the spiritual battle to win people's souls is more important than our current state of suffering, perhaps you need to pay closer attention to Jesus and Paul.

I can't believe that you're even trying to defend such bile. No, your logic is based on the devaluing of human beings to the extreme extent that one believer is worth more than millions of other people. You fail to recognize the value of other people, which is more than a little disguisting.

What you said is certianly a celebration of the Holocaust, whether you intended to do it or are happy with your results. The quote in the OP celebrates it in no uncertain terms. If this point is unclear to you, I'll be happy to highlight how you blatantly disrespect its memory.

Originally Posted by kmkemp
Think of the great good that has come from probably the most tragic event in recent history - the Holocaust. First, it revealed to use a great deal about the nature of man. Second, it serves as a constant reminder of the mercy God shows us every day by allowing us to enjoy the universe, created for us. Third, it makes God's promise to allow the Jews to live until the end of creation all the more amazing considering just how close they came to being wiped out. These are surely only a very small sample of the good things that have come about from the Holocaust. I have no idea if these were God's reasons, but if we really believe that our life here on earth is only a blink compared to our soul's eternity, killing millions of people to build even one person's faith can easily be justified.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

If this thread doesn't bring you to tears, something is terribly wrong.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I do not fear God: perfect love casts out fear. Spiritual infants fear God.

I don't believe that God causes hurt and suffering. However, he has tried to teach us right from wrong since time immemorium and he allows us to make our own choices, right or wrong.

We live with the consequences of not only OUR decisions, but also with the consequences of the decisions of others. Fair? Why not? We learn causality from it all and that helps us to see that God alone is good and perfect.

Man and man alone perpetrated the Holocaust. God never intended for it to be an abject lesson, no matter how we twist it. It is an example of man's cruelty, just as 911 was an example of man's cruelty. Just like then, as also in Biblical times, when something really, really catastrophic happened, man tries to BLAME God. The whole of the OT is dedicated to blaming God for Israel's foriegn policy disastors.

If we were to argue or think differently, it would be an example of the exceptional incompetence and cruelty of God.

On this thread we can observe Christianity at its very worst, of which you most certainly are not representative. It calls to mind the dark ages, where Europeans valued their superstisions more than the lives of their fellow human, and killed millions of people to cultivate their faith. Religion should serve to abviate such bloodlust from the hearts of humans instead of encourage and celebrate it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Since huamnkind decided to live without God, God let humans rule themselves. That is the only answer I have about those awful things that have happened in the past and present.

Jesus Himself said we should not fear men who can only harm your body, but to fear God. It is hard not to be afraid when your own life is at stake (just ask Simon Peter about that one, when he denied Jesus 3 times). There are no easy answers to any of this.

But it is wrong to blame a whole group of people when it was only a few of that group who made the bad decision.

If this is directed towards me, I am not assuming that any one person represents the views of an entire group. I don't think that the person quoted in the OP is representative of any Christian group, or anyone else for that matter. I cannot imagine a Christian pastor saying this, no matter how far he or she is from orthodoxy.

 

[!Fluffy!]

I think statements like this are why there is so much contempt for the Christian faith, not to mention an excuse for any action. Who's to say that me killing a man or a group of people so that one might find faith is immoral? That's scary.

~matthew.william~

anyone who can claim with a straight face that the OP quote typefies the majority of all Christian's attitudes about the Holocaust is delusional.

or morally bankrupt themselves.

 

[matthew.william]

anyone who can claim with a straight face that the OP quote typefies the majority of all Christian's attitudes about the Holocaust is delusional.

or morally bankrupt themselves.

I never said it was representative of the majority of Christian attitudes. Sorry if it came off that way. My point was that the statement is mis-representative of the Gospels, and damaging to the faith. I, as a Christian, read that quote in horror.

~matthew.william~

 

[matthew.william]

I would love to know how my statement can be used to excuse any action. The nazis are certainly under judgment for what they did, but God allowed them to do it all the same. Scripture is very clear.

"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of God," Matthew 10:29

You assert that God values the soul of one over the lives of millions. Need I explain more?

~matthew.william~

 

[angellous_evangellous]

anyone who can claim with a straight face that the OP quote typefies the majority of all Christian's attitudes about the Holocaust is delusional.

or morally bankrupt themselves.

While many Christians are not so theologically incompetent and ignorant of history to make such statements about the Holocaust specifically (as in the OP), we are certianly aware of a handful of Christian leaders who do represent what we can call "mainstream evangelical Christianity." I have in mind here the late Jerry Falwell and his comments about 9-11 and Katrina, James Robinson and his similar comments, and their many friends who have millions of followers. In this way, the quote in the OP does represent an extreme version of attitudes which we already know exist: the ethically bankrupt strains of Christianity which completely devalue human life and expression.

Fortunately, other Christians - both of the Catholic varieties and other Protestants can detect how far from the message of Christianity these wackos are.

 

[kmkemp]

I can't believe that you're even trying to defend such bile. No, your logic is based on the devaluing of human beings to the extreme extent that one believer is worth more than millions of other people. You fail to recognize the value of other people, which is more than a little disguisting.

"Other people"? So you don't think that any believers died during the Holocaust?

What you said is certianly a celebration of the Holocaust, whether you intended to do it or are happy with your results. The quote in the OP celebrates it in no uncertain terms. If this point is unclear to you, I'll be happy to highlight how you blatantly disrespect its memory.

I hope this quote below it is not your example of me disrespecting it's memory.

Originally Posted by kmkemp
Think of the great good that has come from probably the most tragic event in recent history - the Holocaust. First, it revealed to use a great deal about the nature of man. Second, it serves as a constant reminder of the mercy God shows us every day by allowing us to enjoy the universe, created for us. Third, it makes God's promise to allow the Jews to live until the end of creation all the more amazing considering just how close they came to being wiped out. These are surely only a very small sample of the good things that have come about from the Holocaust. I have no idea if these were God's reasons, but if we really believe that our life here on earth is only a blink compared to our soul's eternity, killing millions of people to build even one person's faith can easily be justified.

Again, I am talking about God's perspective here (did you actually read this thread?).