A Classic Example of an Ethically Bankrupt Religion

[Dr. Nosophoros]

If you have a flashlight, it doesn't work unless you have the batteries installed the right way (unless you have one of those ones you crank, -well worth the price IMO it saves the cost of batteries etc. ) but anyway all power appears to derive from the positive and the negative, good justifies evil and vice versa, without it neither would exist, there has to be a bar, a point, a line in the sand that we judge in our minds that this is good and this is evil. Maybe the reason for that is the ideas of it justify ourselves, it gives us purpose, the scariest thing might just be the idea that none of it means anything, we live and we die, it scares the hell out of us to think maybe for a second that we are really that insignificant in the grand scheme of things and there is nothing but life and death for us.

 

[kmkemp]

This is my view as well. I would never say this, ever.

I do believe that God exists, and the Holocaust and other evils both past and present are serious problems for my belief in God's goodness and power. In fact, God deserves to die for allowing such evils to occur and continue.

However, as a Christian I believe that God works about redemption, and did work redemptively in the lives of millions of people in spite of evils that God allowed. I do not recognize God as the author of these evils, but because God is powerful, God does bear some ultimate responsibility. Because of this, I am afraid of God but nevertheless hope that God actually is good.

This quote explains a lot. You can't pick and choose the attributes of God. Judgment is clearly one of his strong suits.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Well, the holocaust was a wake-up call for billions of people, not just 1. I am not attempting to portray my logic as God's logic. He very well could have other reasons (I already suggested others as well). What this thread boils down to is several people attempting to tell others that they know God's reasons. Scripture is clear: My ways are not your ways and my mind is not your mind. But, nonetheless, they spew this humanity nonsense and try to pass it off as "God's way".

In this case, then, you should apply this thinking to yourself. If this Scripture applies to us, it applies to you as well (unless you are a hypocrite), and it is a bit arrogant for you to think that you can adequately express God's point of view and no one else can.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

This quote explains a lot. You can't pick and choose the attributes of God. Judgment is clearly one of his strong suits.

Righteous judgment is, and I don't presume to know the mind of God as you do.

 

[kmkemp]

In this case, then, you should apply this thinking to yourself. If this Scripture applies to us, it applies to you as well (unless you are a hypocrite), and it is a bit arrogant for you to think that you can adequately express God's point of view and no one else can.

I am NOT the one who has continually passed off my thinking as God's. I was very clear in the post that you first quoted. Care to actually read what I write instead of making blind accusations?

Here, maybe this will help:

"I have no idea if these were God's reasons, but if we really believe that our life here on earth is only a blink compared to our soul's eternity, killing millions of people to build even one person's faith can easily be justified."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I am NOT the one who has continually passed off my thinking as God's. I was very clear in the post that you first quoted. Care to actually read what I write instead of making blind accusations?

You've obviously forgotten what you wrote earlier on this thread. I am not making blind accusations but am referring to a very clear statement made by yourself. Habitual contradiction is a sure sign of complete incompetence.

I was speaking from God's perspective. I think (hope) everyone else that read it saw that except for you. It is obviously not right for us to kill someone to save someone's soul. How, practically, could that even happen? It would take a very twisted person to think he was saving someone's soul by killing.

I gather from these posts that you think that you know that millions of lives are worth one person's faith, and God is willing to kill or allow millions of people to be killed for this reason, but you don't know why. So you know the mind of God - claiming to speak from God's perspective on killing or allowing killing, but you don't know the mind of God for the reasoning behind it. So do you know the mind of God or not?

 

[kmkemp]

You've obviously forgotten what you wrote earlier on this thread. I am not making blind accusations but am referring to a very clear statement made by yourself. Habitual contradiction is a sure sign of complete incompetence.

I gather from these posts that you think that you know that millions of lives are worth one person's faith, and God is willing to kill or allow millions of people to be killed for this reason, but you don't know why. So you know the mind of God - claiming to speak from God's perspective on killing or allowing killing, but you don't know the mind of God for the reasoning behind it. So do you know the mind of God or not?

How about you go back and read my first post that YOU yourself quoted.

"I have no idea if these were God's reasons, but if we really believe that our life here on earth is only a blink compared to our soul's eternity, killing millions of people to build even one person's faith can easily be justified."

I don't know how many times I need to paste that for you to understand. Perhaps the problem is that you do not want to understand. I am talking about how God could be perfectly justified in killing (or allowing them to die) millions of people for the reasons (or others) that I had already stated. Unfortunately, I fear that all you see is "kill" and your humanism comes in as a poor substitute for scripture.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Claiming to be the word of God is tantamount to claiming perfection, no?

No. It never claims to be in totality the word of God and nowhere does it ever claim to be perfect. God majors in working through the imperfections of man. Why should scripture be any different? You are in effect putting words into God's mouth when you do this. He is not pleased.

And what difference does it make if it is only mentioned in a few places? Do you want every chapter to start off with, "this is infaliable God-breathed"? (and yes, I realize the Bible wasn't originally written in chapters before someone reminds me)

It is said only about a few PEOPLE and never about the entire scripture. "Then the word of the Lord came to ..." is how we are clued in to when it is God's word being written.

Careful there.

So you claim to have an insight that I do not? I would take your own advice here. YOU are the one blaming God for inhumane acts in order to support an unbiblical view of God: omnipotence. Go ahead and find THAT in the scriptures. While you are at it, try to find omniscient as well.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

How about you go back and read my first post that YOU yourself quoted.

"I have no idea if these were God's reasons, but if we really believe that our life here on earth is only a blink compared to our soul's eternity, killing millions of people to build even one person's faith can easily be justified."

I don't know how many times I need to paste that for you to understand. Perhaps the problem is that you do not want to understand. I am talking about how God could be perfectly justified in killing (or allowing them to die) millions of people for the reasons (or others) that I had already stated. Unfortunately, I fear that all you see is "kill" and your humanism comes in as a poor substitute for scripture.

Are you capable of staying on topic and addressing the issues? This post in no way addresses any of my points.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So you claim to have an insight that I do not? I would take your own advice here. YOU are the one blaming God for inhumane acts in order to support an unbiblical view of God: omnipotence. Go ahead and find THAT in the scriptures. While you are at it, try to find omniscient as well.

Read the OP ya dummy! :foot:

 

[matthew.william]

How about you go back and read my first post that YOU yourself quoted.

"I have no idea if these were God's reasons, but if we really believe that our life here on earth is only a blink compared to our soul's eternity, killing millions of people to build even one person's faith can easily be justified."

I don't know how many times I need to paste that for you to understand. Perhaps the problem is that you do not want to understand. I am talking about how God could be perfectly justified in killing (or allowing them to die) millions of people for the reasons (or others) that I had already stated. Unfortunately, I fear that all you see is "kill" and your humanism comes in as a poor substitute for scripture.

I assume from your position and the John Piper reference, you have a calvinist view, correct?

~matthew.william~

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Odd how post numbers 76 and 78 have dropped from view. That should have fallen like a hammer!

 

[Scuba Pete]

If we were to argue or think differently, it would be an example of the exceptional incompetence and cruelty of God.

God is neither. They are merely signs of our imperfections.

On this thread we can observe Christianity at its very worst, of which you most certainly are not representative.

You are seeing someone trying to justify their misconceptions about God with reality. They know God to be true, but they just don't understand that the traits they are assigning him are nefarious and very un-Godlike.

It calls to mind the dark ages, where Europeans valued their superstisions more than the lives of their fellow human, and killed millions of people to cultivate their faith. Religion should serve to abviate such bloodlust from the hearts of humans instead of encourage and celebrate it.

The man has NEITHER celebrated their deaths nor has he called for more deaths. I am probably one of the HARSHEST critics of bias and prejudice on this forum and I just don't see that here. I do see someone maligning God at the very worst. Sucks to be him.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You are in effect putting words into God's mouth when you do this. He is not pleased.

Pete, I know you mean well, but this isn't fair. I can't imagine either how God would be pleased with someone speaking for her, but in all likelyhood, the two of you are not talking about the same Person. To assume as much would be a bit presumptuous, and you can't say how pleased with someone else their god is --- who are you to judge another person's Servant?

 

[kmkemp]

No. It never claims to be in totality the word of God and nowhere does it ever claim to be perfect. God majors in working through the imperfections of man. Why should scripture be any different? You are in effect putting words into God's mouth when you do this. He is not pleased.It is said only about a few PEOPLE and never about the entire scripture. "Then the word of the Lord came to ..." is how we are clued in to when it is God's word being written. So you claim to have an insight that I do not? I would take your own advice here. YOU are the one blaming God for inhumane acts in order to support an unbiblical view of God: omnipotence. Go ahead and find THAT in the scriptures. While you are at it, try to find omniscient as well.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16)"

 

[Special Revelation]

Since huamnkind decided to live without God, God let humans rule themselves. That is the only answer I have about those awful things that have happened in the past and present.

Jesus Himself said we should not fear men who can only harm your body, but to fear God. It is hard not to be afraid when your own life is at stake (just ask Simon Peter about that one, when he denied Jesus 3 times). There are no easy answers to any of this.

But it is wrong to blame a whole group of people when it was only a few of that group who made the bad decision.

I think this is an excellent Thread since we are meditating of the attributes of God. I believe the Bible reveals that God is always in control. He is always sovereign over His creatures. I chose to comment on this particular post so my sister in Christ will grow in faith regarding the absolute certainty of the promises of God.

It may appear that mankind is ruling Himself. Or the weather has a will of it's own. But the Bible reveals that God is sovereign over the weather and sinful mankind. God pre-ordained all events, to the praise of His glory. God cannot commit evil or be tempted by evil. God is merciful and gracious to allow sinners to live another day without bringing down his divine and righteous judgement.

Natural catastrophes like hurricanes and tsunamis do not happen by random chance according to the Bible. Theologically, natural disasters is judgement against sinful mankind in general (not the specific people). When people die, God withdraws the gift of life. To the unbeliever, it's judgement. To the believer, to live is Christ and to die is gain. Part of the curse of Genesis 3, is living in a fallen cursed world. God cannot be mocked. Sinful mankind reaps what they sow. God's will is always done, even though we may not understand it on this side of Heaven.

Instead of believing God is not in control in unexplainable sinful events, I believe it honors God to say that I do not understand His hidden or permissible will. Think about the account of Joseph? Or how about the suffering of Jesus? If we walk by sight, during these events, we would think God was not in control. However, if we walk by faith, we can now see how God unfolds His perfect plan and are now able to see His perfect wisdom. Faith pleases God. We can believe and trust all that God reveals in the Bible.

 

[Scuba Pete]

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16)"

Key= INSPIRATION
in spi ra tion [in-spuh-rey-shuhn] n
1.an inspiring or animating action or influence: I cannot write poetry without inspiration. 2.something inspired, as an idea. 3.a result of inspired activity. 4.a thing or person that inspires. 5.Theology. a.a divine influence directly and immediately exerted upon the mind or soul. b.the divine quality of the writings or words of a person so influenced. 6.the drawing of air into the lungs; inhalation. 7.the act of inspiring; quality or state of being inspired.Source: www.Dictionary.com

There does not seem to be anything about "dictation" or "perfection" in here. Men were MOVED to write. The scripture you quoted seems to fall WAY short of calling the Scriptures "perfect".

 

[kmkemp]

Are you capable of staying on topic and addressing the issues? This post in no way addresses any of my points.

On the contrary, it addresses all of your points. This is what you said in the previous post:

You've obviously forgotten what you wrote earlier on this thread. I am not making blind accusations but am referring to a very clear statement made by yourself. Habitual contradiction is a sure sign of complete incompetence.

I do not respond to personal attacks. Furthermore, there are no actual points to be made here - only unjustified attacks. But you do use a lot of big words.

I gather from these posts that you think that you know that millions of lives are worth one person's faith, and God is willing to kill or allow millions of people to be killed for this reason, but you don't know why.

Oh, but I don't. I already bolded for you where I specifically said that I don't know the mind of God. Do I really need to do it again?

So you know the mind of God - claiming to speak from God's perspective on killing or allowing killing, but you don't know the mind of God for the reasoning behind it. So do you know the mind of God or not?

No, I do not. I already bolded for you where I said that. If you refuse to read what is right in front of your eyes, then I cannot help you.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Key= INSPIRATION
in spi ra tion [in-spuh-rey-shuhn] n
1.an inspiring or animating action or influence: I cannot write poetry without inspiration. 2.something inspired, as an idea. 3.a result of inspired activity. 4.a thing or person that inspires. 5.Theology. a.a divine influence directly and immediately exerted upon the mind or soul. b.the divine quality of the writings or words of a person so influenced. 6.the drawing of air into the lungs; inhalation. 7.the act of inspiring; quality or state of being inspired.Source: www.Dictionary.com

There does not seem to be anything about "dictation" or "perfection" in here. Men were MOVED to write. The scripture you quoted seems to fall WAY short of calling the Scriptures "perfect".

Pete,

Can you two take this discussion to Is the bible word perfect? (infaliable? is that the right word?)

He's having a hard enough time staying on topic anyway.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Pete, I know you mean well, but this isn't fair. I can't imagine either how God would be pleased with someone speaking for her, but in all likelyhood, the two of you are not talking about the same Person. To assume as much would be a bit presumptuous, and you can't say how pleased with someone else their god is --- who are you to judge another person's Servant?

He seems to be quoting from the same scriptures. I do believe we are talking about the God of the Scriptures, whom I believe has no sex as we understand sex. He is neither male or female.