A Classic Example of an Ethically Bankrupt Religion

[Special Revelation]

I have and I will. I don't find the scriptures EVER using omnipotent or omniscient. Do you? Perhaps a study of your own is in order so you can determine this on your own. How irrelevant is your question? Do you fall for the fallacious view that somehow size matters? You say this because I refuse to attribute some things to God that not even the scriptures attribute to him? Who is REALLY being scriptural here, my friend? Sorry, but I will continue to allow the Spirit to guide me into understanding by reading the scriptures. Feel free to continue to hold to the precepts of men.

Did you know redemptive history didn't start in the 21st century with Scuba Pete. God has been redeeming His elect since the fall. Read Ephesians 4 for some insight. God gives the church pastors and teachers to mature the saints. It is a quite arrogant position that you can't learn from Godly men throughout the history of the church.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Before that, he should read My threads against Calvinism

 

[Scuba Pete]

"I see your scwhartz is as big as mine!"

If Spaceballs taught us anything, it's that in the battle between good and evil, it's not size that matters... it's how you use it...

May the farce be with you, Dark Helmet.

 

[kmkemp]

Is there some way that we can do a public poll on this site so I can see who all believes in the attributes of God? I have no idea if I need to explain why I think he is omnipotent, omniscient, sovereign, etc etc. There is one conundrum that I have repeatedly stated here and no one has addressed:

If God is not omnipotent, what good is he to you?
If God is not omniscient, how do you know that Satan won't win Armageddon?
If God is both of these, how can you not say that He is responsible for all things?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

May the farce be with you, Dark Helmet.

If a woman ever tells you that, she's lying.

 

[Special Revelation]

Before that, he should read My threads against Calvinism

I have noticed in your postings that you also have appeared to have departed from orthodox Christianity. It is quite obvious when I read SJ and your postings. Do you consider yourself to be a liberal Christian? What have you rejected in orthodox Christianity? What do you still embrace? I believe SJ rejects the literal account of Adam and Eve. If you reject Adam as a literal man representing mankind, do you also reject the 2nd Adam as a literal person who represents God's elect?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Did you know redemptive history didn't start in the 21st century with Scuba Pete. God has been redeeming His elect since the fall. Read Ephesians 4 for some insight. God gives the church pastors and teachers to mature the saints. It is a quite arrogant position that you can't learn from Godly men throughout the history of the church.

You deny the power of the Spirit then? I have no qualms learning from the Godly and the unGodly. But it is the SPIRIT that helps us to understand the scriptures. If you were to submit to the Spirit of the Living God, you would understand this concept.

II Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. -NIV

I Corinthians 2:10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. -NIV

It appears to me that you need to study the importance of the Spirit in the Christian's life.

 

[Scuba Pete]

If God is not omnipotent, what good is he to you?
If God is not omniscient, how do you know that Satan won't win Armageddon?
If God is both of these, how can you not say that He is responsible for all things?

Why do you feel a need to depart from the Scriptures? I just don't get that.

 

[Special Revelation]

You deny the power of the Spirit then? I have no qualms learning from the Godly and the unGodly. But it is the SPIRIT that helps us to understand the scriptures. If you were to submit to the Spirit of the Living God, you would understand this concept.

II Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. -NIV

I Corinthians 2:10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. -NIV

It appears to me that you need to study the importance of the Spirit in the Christian's life.

That too funny my friend. So, all of the giants of the Christian faith throughout church history did not have God the Holy Spirit dwell in them? I bet you don't even attend a church? You still didn't respond to Ephesians 4....God gives the church pastors and teachers to equip and mature the saints. You must be a lone ranger Christian. The end of 2 Cor 2 appears to be used in plural form.

 

[kmkemp]

Why do you feel a need to depart from the Scriptures? I just don't get that.

They are simple questions, no? If God doesn't know everything, why do you trust his "predictions"? I think that, deep down, you know that he knows everything that is past, present, and yet to come. If he is not all-powerful, why do you feel secure in your salvation? What if He can't raise you from the dead? What if he can't defeat Satan? Only the belief in omnipotence and omniscience can fix the conundrum, in which case you must believe that nothing occurs apart from God's will.

Here is an interesting quote from Millard Erickson, noted theologian.
"For the Old Testament writers, it was virtually inconceivable that anything could happen independently of the will and working of God. As evidence of this, consider that common impersonal expressions like "It rained" are not found in the Old Testament. For the Hebrews, rain did not simply happen; God sent the rain. They saw [God] as the all-powerful determiner of everything that occurs. Not only is [God] active in everything that occurs, but [God] has planned it. What is happening now was planned long ago."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I have noticed in your postings that you also have appeared to have departed from orthodox Christianity. It is quite obvious when I read SJ and your postings. Do you consider yourself to be a liberal Christian? What have you rejected in orthodox Christianity? What do you still embrace? I believe SJ rejects the literal account of Adam and Eve. If you reject Adam as a literal man representing mankind, do you also reject the 2nd Adam as a literal person who represents God's elect?

All this stuff is off topic. See my thread About Angellous or Ask Angellous Any Question about Angellous's interpretation of Christianity.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Is there some way that we can do a public poll on this site so I can see who all believes in the attributes of God? I have no idea if I need to explain why I think he is omnipotent, omniscient, sovereign, etc etc. There is one conundrum that I have repeatedly stated here and no one has addressed:

If God is not omnipotent, what good is he to you?
If God is not omniscient, how do you know that Satan won't win Armageddon?
If God is both of these, how can you not say that He is responsible for all things?

You can start your own thread with a poll on each of these topics.

 

[kmkemp]

How would you guys respond to Proverbs 16:9?

"A man's heart plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps."

Proverbs 21:1?

"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

How would you guys respond to Proverbs 16:9?

"A man's heart plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps."

Proverbs 21:1?

"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes."

It's not applicable to all people, only to some men and some kings - those whom the Lord chooses to direct. The passage says "a man" and "the king" and not "all men everywhere, in every time and place" or "all kings..."

EDIT: An excellent example of when the Lord says that he did not direct an action of a person is:

Jeremiah 7
31And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

 

[kmkemp]

It's not applicable to all people, only to some men and some kings - those whom the Lord chooses to direct. The passage says "a man" and "the king" and not "all men everywhere, in every time and place" or "all kings..."

Read them in context. They are both very general terms. They are not referring to a single person.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Read them in context. They are both very general terms. They are not referring to a single person.

I did not say that they were. Read me in context.:foot:

 

[Scuba Pete]

That too funny my friend. So, all of the giants of the Christian faith throughout church history did not have God the Holy Spirit dwell in them?

I guess that you find it easy to put words in anyone's mouth. First, you did it to God, and now you do it to me.

I bet you don't even attend a church?

One does not attend a church, but rather one is a part of a church. The church is not a building, a mass or a service. It is the BODY of Christ. There are any number of scriptures to support this view should you need them. And no, I am currently in search of a church since I left one not too long ago. Too many seem to support the doctrine of WWJB and I can not abide by that.

You still didn't respond to Ephesians 4....God gives the church pastors and teachers to equip and mature the saints. You must be a lone ranger Christian.

No. If I were, I would not be here. I have been admonished by many a brother and I have done the same to them. I have had the friendship and guidance of many an elder and evangelist.

The end of 2 Cor 2 appears to be used in plural form.

Meaning what???

 

[kmkemp]

It's as if we say that "man is evil". We used a singular form here. Still, we do not mean to say "some men are evil". It is clear that we mean "all men are evil". What is the difference between that expression and the statements in proverbs?

 

[BFD_Zayl]

*** MOD POST ***

Please stay on topic with the OP, which is to discuss the ethics or lack thereof, of some religions.​

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It's as if we say that "man is evil". We used a singular form here. Still, we do not mean to say "some men are evil". It is clear that we mean "all men are evil". What is the difference between that expression and the statements in proverbs?

There is no indication that "man is evil" is an absolute statement, and it needs a lot of qualifying to make it mean "all men of every time and place are evil" - taken as it stands, it means precisely how I have interpreted the other passage, "some men are evil" - perhaps a lot of them, but not everyone everywhere.

If this statement were part of a larger document or collection of documents, I'd keep an eye out for statements that qualify or contradict the statement as delimiting the extent of evil and its nature. For example, in post # 154, I have shown a clear example of how the Lord did not direct someone's steps...