A Classic Example of an Ethically Bankrupt Religion

[kmkemp]

Thou shalt not Kill -- unless it is to save your soul...
I must have missed that exception in the Bible.

I must have missed that in my post.

 

[Sonic247]

Luke 12:4-5 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

See it is part of the Gospel it's even a direct quote from Jesus.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Are you suggesting that God could not have stopped the Holocaust?

If you believe that God is omnipotent, then there must have been some reason why he allowed it to occur, right? I brought forth several possible reasons. Good things that have come about.

Now, for the part of my statement that is highlighted. My logic is based on simple math. One person's soul will survive for ETERNITY. Saving it is not worth killing millions of people? Those millions of people are only moving on to eternity. It is not like we are condemning them to hell. I am not celebrating the Holocaust, nor am I claiming I know God's reasons. If you don't think that the spiritual battle to win people's souls is more important than our current state of suffering, perhaps you need to pay closer attention to Jesus and Paul.

If there really is a (Christian) god who will send people's souls to hell for eternity, then I think kmkemp's reasoning is actually pretty sound.

The reason many Christians (Jews, Muslims, etc.) who live in today's modern societies would reject kmkemp's reasoning is not because it is faulty, in my opinion, but because humanism and an emphasis on this world and this life has crept into our culture. I don't think kmkemp's argument would have shocked anyone hundreds and thousands of years ago.

 

[Mister_T]

Next time put the whole verse in so we can see it in context:

1Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 3What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.

4"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies[a]? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
8"I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. 9But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. 10And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. 11"When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, 12for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say."

Sorry. The "good news" is not fear God or he'll send you to Hell. The Good News is God loves you and he paid your debt.

 

[Sonic247]

If you fear God then there is nothing to fear, it says that God does have power to throw you into hell and we should fear him. You can't take one statement and ignore the other, they are both true.

 

[McBell]

I must have missed that in my post.

One person's soul will survive for ETERNITY. Saving it is not worth killing millions of people? Those millions of people are only moving on to eternity. It is not like we are condemning them to hell.

Sounds to me that not only is killing fine to save your soul, but it matters not how many you kill to do so.
I mean, it isn't like they are condemned to hell or anything.

 

[Sonic247]

He didn't say we should kill people, God makes the call about the nations and what their judgement is. Like he did to Sodom and Gomorah.

 

[kmkemp]

Sounds to me that not only is killing fine to save your soul, but it matters not how many you kill to do so.
I mean, it isn't like they are condemned to hell or anything.

I was speaking from God's perspective. I think (hope) everyone else that read it saw that except for you. It is obviously not right for us to kill someone to save someone's soul. How, practically, could that even happen? It would take a very twisted person to think he was saving someone's soul by killing.

 

[Mister_T]

If you fear God then there is nothing to fear, it says that God does have power to throw you into hell and we should fear him. You can't take one statement and ignore the other, they are both true.

Exactly. Which is why the person should have chosen the verse he selected more carefully.

I'm taking the whole gospel into context, not selected verses. Selected verses can mean anything. The message of the gospel is God's love. Not "fear God cause he'll throw you in hell."

 

[Sonic247]

They are both a part of the Gospel. Unsaved people should fear God and be reconciled to him, saved people have nothing to fear. The same thing you say about the part I quoted can be said about the part you did, but I didn't say mine was the whole gospel just part of it.

 

[kmkemp]

Exactly. Which is why the person should have chosen the verse he selected more carefully.

I'm taking the whole gospel into context, not selected verses. Selected verses can mean anything. The message of the gospel is God's love. Not "fear God cause he'll throw you in hell."

So quoting a very specific passage where Jesus is telling people to fear God is taking him out of context? How so? Because I didn't type the whole gospel, I somehow misrepresented it? I would never argue that love wasn't the central theme of the gospel, but there is nonetheless a very strong sense in which we should fear God. That is not the only verse. I could list dozens if you want to use those instead, but the words of Jesus are always the best quotes for obvious reasons.

 

[Mister_T]

They are both a part of the Gospel. Unsaved people should fear God and be reconciled to him, saved people have nothing to fear. The same thing you say about the part I quoted can be said about the part you did, but I didn't say mine was the whole gospel just part of it.

Jesus' crucifixion was not done out of "fear of God."

And fearing God could mean something different than "God's Wrath."
It could mean to fear God is to hate evil and avoid evil (Proverbs 8:13)

 

[Sonic247]

It's hard to fear yourself sometimes. Not avoiding evil is what bring God's wrath, and if you fear God's wrath you will depart from evil so it's the same thing.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I am proud to be God fearing and would suggest you all might join me in this fear.

 

[Mister_T]

So quoting a very specific passage where Jesus is telling people to fear God is taking him out of context?

It is when there's contradictory verses before and/or after.

How so? Because I didn't type the whole gospel, I somehow misrepresented it?

That verse is not the main focus of the gospel.

I would never argue that love wasn't the central theme of the gospel,

Then why are you? I'm talking about the central message of the Gospel. Nothing else.

but there is nonetheless a very strong sense in which we should fear God. That is not the only verse. I could list dozens if you want to use those instead, but the words of Jesus are always the best quotes for obvious reasons.

I don't disagree. And I'm quite familiar with the gospel and the verses you will probably use. There are also verses about judging, hyporisy, Pharissees, false prophets, etc. But we were talking about the main message of the Gospel.

 

[Pariah]

I am proud to be God fearing and would suggest you all might join me in this fear.

Why should I fear God?

 

[Sonic247]

The verses don't contradict each other, even if you think the Bible has contradictions someone wouldn't write them right next to each other, it's a contrast God is a God of love and of judgement. And to take it in the context of the whole Bible it tells how God will judge and save.

 

[Mister_T]

It's hard to fear yourself sometimes. Not avoiding evil is what bring God's wrath, and if you fear God's wrath you will depart from evil so it's the same thing.

It's not the same thing. People should be avoiding evil things because they love doing good things, not because God will spank them.

 

[kmkemp]

It is when there's contradictory verses before and/or after.

They are not contradictory.

That verse is not the main focus of the gospel.

You're correct.

Then why are you? I'm talking about the central message of the Gospel. Nothing else.

Well, you started by saying this:

If God saved people from the Holocaust, why should we fear him? Last I checked the Christian God is a God of love, not a God of fear.

That is not a claim that the central message of the gospel is love. It is saying that fearing God is not Biblical or a part of the gospel. Perhaps I am misinterpreting. If so, I'm sorry. It was not my intention.

 

[Sonic247]

He wouldn't fear God if they saw him, he will send people to hell and it's is a scary thing.