A legal violation of student's dignity and privacy

[Shadow Wolf]

But you do also want to allow trans genders who have not undergone surgery, right? It would not be good for a true trans to be called out and accused of sneaking in where they don't belong. That would be humiliating. And I am concerned that some girls would not be comfortable with someone in the locker room who still has male parts.

Yes, I would allow that. They look like girls, act like girls, so why put them in the boy's room? And transsexuals also tend to be cautious about showing themselves, but even that may be changing for the younger transitioners, and I've read in many of such cases where the facilities were being used without incident until some jack-wad of a parent made a scene about it, and that is when trouble begins. People who keep saying they want individual facilities because they want to protect the transsexual students have absolutely no idea how much harm they actually tend to end up causing.

Again, the last thing I want to do is humiliate trans gender kids. I want a solution that addresses what I consider to be real concerns for everyone.

The only way to get over it is for it to happen. I'm just glad we aren't having to take the beatings, fire hoses, dogs, lynch mobs, and other such things that black people and their supporters endured to have equal access to various public facilities and buildings. But, their endurance paid off, and we don't see such violence like we did just a few decades ago.

I must disagree. Even as a cisgender heterosexual male ( in other words, an average joe ) I have always felt very uncomfortable with getting undressed in front of people I barely know. The extra privacy would benefit everyone, and it is totally worth to be paid for.

That's how many people are, and were I feel society could change. Being naked really isn't that big of a deal. It's how we're born, and spend a good deal of our time. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Clothing does has it's purposes and uses, but to "cover our shame" shouldn't be one of them.

 

[Acim]

I also just think it possible someone that someone goes about abusing the policy (inherently mocking it, in a bad way), gets called out by administrator type, and then would have grounds for lawsuit and a lot of sympathy until MSM gets wind of the abuse/mockery and suddenly does an about face in expressing all the pity for the victim and hatred for the administrator.

Yep, I can be that cynical.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I also just think it possible someone that someone goes about abusing the policy (inherently mocking it, in a bad way), gets called out by administrator type, and then would have grounds for lawsuit and a lot of sympathy until MSM gets wind of the abuse/mockery and suddenly does an about face in expressing all the pity for the victim and hatred for the administrator.

Yep, I can be that cynical.

So someone is really going to go through with the therapy and doctor treatments, go through all the work of changing their legal documents, tell their parents, their school, and the whole world a lie, and receive medical treatment all just to abuse the policy?

 

[Scott C.]

The only way to get over it is for it to happen. I'm just glad we aren't having to take the beatings, fire hoses, dogs, lynch mobs, and other such things that black people and their supporters endured to have equal access to various public facilities and buildings. But, their endurance paid off, and we don't see such violence like we did just a few decades ago.

You said "we" so I suppose that means you are transgender. Seriously, I hope my views here aren't offensive. I don't understand the psychology behind this, but I do know that transgenders deserve respect the same as anyone else.

I consider myself mostly conservative and hopefully compassionate. I find myself with firm beliefs not on the "shame" of the human body. It's beautiful, to be celebrated, and to be enjoyed. But I see it as sacred, private, and personal. I see a need for gender separation. So, I try to protect that part of our culture and this majority belief with respect for the needs of transsexuals. Heated debates and insults have no place here. So, I'm glad we seem to be discussing this without animus or a bad tone.

 

[fantome profane]

No, I understood your point and it was well taken. If no official declaration were required, some boys would likely screw around with this. This would put administration in the position of having to figure out who to call out. I still have a concern though about someone with a boy's anatomy, although trans gender in heart, in the girl's locker room. It's not that I think the trans gender is going to sexually assault someone. It's that the girls may be very uncomfortable.

No you do not understand my point. No boy is going to screw around with this. No teenage boy wants this friends and classmates thinking he is a transsexual unless he really is a transsexual.

 

[suncowiam]

You said "we" so I suppose that means you are transgender. Seriously, I hope my views here aren't offensive. I don't understand the psychology behind this, but I do know that transgenders deserve respect the same as anyone else.

I consider myself mostly conservative and hopefully compassionate. I find myself with firm beliefs not on the "shame" of the human body. It's beautiful, to be celebrated, and to be enjoyed. But I see it as sacred, private, and personal. I see a need for gender separation. So, I try to protect that part of our culture and this majority belief with respect for the needs of transsexuals. Heated debates and insults have no place here. So, I'm glad we seem to be discussing this without animus or a bad tone.

Ironically, many here are arguing for the same. It's all how you define gender.

There's enough corner cases to suggest the current "accepted" gender model is not working. At least, its not working for EVERYONE. Who's willing to accept a new model to accommodate a new era and a population of people that have been mostly silent if nothing else? Does being conservative mean one only adheres to one's prior influence? Does being conservative with a religious background mean that one only adheres with one's "higher" influence? That was semi-rhetorical. Because maybe one needs to step outside their boundaries of conservatism.

Can folks accept this new model? That people can identify as the opposite sex when compared to their physical organs. I believe it is true that some folks are genuinely in this population and no matter how small it is, we should respect their identity. So if I should change my cultural views, then personally, I shall. But to argue on the other side I would ask to please give me time for this acceptance. It's not as easy as flipping on a light switch.

 

[Scott C.]

No you do not understand my point. No boy is going to screw around with this. No teenage boy wants this friends and classmates thinking he is a transsexual unless he really is a transsexual.

I see your point if a formal declaration is required to the administration. But, if an official declaration is not required, and if it's an "open door, on my honor" policy, I can easily see a group of boys screwing around like this. They would all know that each other is not transgender. Boys that age get into all kinds of mischief.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You said "we" so I suppose that means you are transgender. Seriously, I hope my views here aren't offensive. I don't understand the psychology behind this, but I do know that transgenders deserve respect the same as anyone else.

No. It's actually pleasant that someone asks questions instead of making the assumptions that many people, including members here, often make.

I consider myself mostly conservative and hopefully compassionate. I find myself with firm beliefs not on the "shame" of the human body. It's beautiful, to be celebrated, and to be enjoyed. But I see it as sacred, private, and personal. I see a need for gender separation. So, I try to protect that part of our culture and this majority belief with respect for the needs of transsexuals. Heated debates and insults have no place here. So, I'm glad we seem to be discussing this without animus or a bad tone.

Although I don't agree on gender segregation, as I feel in the long wrong we'd better off without, but I do agree about the body. As for the needs of transsexuals, all we really need is to be allowed to live as our selves and shown the same basic dignity that any human should be treated with. We don't need separate facilities, as that separates us, it does make us stand out, and it does make it harder to just be accepted. As for the majority belief and opinion, not only was America designed to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority, the majority belief used to be that blacks can't mingle with whites, that women should just be housewives because they are capable enough to be anything else, and that the Natives are "savage brutes." But when we have legally changed such things, despite such concerns for protecting the minorities or screams it will be the fall of society, these things don't happen, the minority group gains more of a status of normality, and for some groups there really isn't even an issue anymore (such as Irish or German immigrants or those descended from more recent immigrants). And of course very few people today would even think it anything to see a black person sitting down in a crowded bus with white people standing, but really, not that long ago, it was the majority belief that the black person was indecent and breaking the law.
An idea only has as much power as we give it, and there being a problem or issue with transsexuals using the appropriate facilities can only be a problem if people turn it into one. Without people turning this into an issue, all we are left with is people going in to do their business like any other person.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Can folks accept this new model?

There is sufficient and ample historical precedence to confidently state that yes, they can and will accept this new model. But it can't happen with people trying to fight it and prevent it from happening.

 

[fantome profane]

I see your point if a formal declaration is required to the administration. But, if an official declaration is not required, and if it's an "open door, on my honor" policy, I can easily see a group of boys screwing around like this. They would all know that each other is not transgender. Boys that age get into all kinds of mischief.

I honestly don't see that happening. Boys that age are very insecure about their sexuality and their standing with their peer group, and very eager to tease. The "honour system" would work better than you imagine.

But fine, if filling out some paper work in the office solves the problem for you then ok.

 

[suncowiam]

There is sufficient and ample historical precedence to confidently state that yes, they can and will accept this new model. But it can't happen with people trying to fight it and prevent it from happening.

Yeah, fighting and preventing it from happening is not accepting it. =)

I don't even care about the scientific data behind gender identity. Personally, if it doesn't hurt myself, my family or society then so what. People wanting to be the opposite sex or have attraction to the same sex... So what.

It's clear that this has been happening since the beginning of time. But it's not clear that this has been dangerous to anyone. In fact, I think I will say that this is not a danger to society. Folks have no proof to assert that and if they want to, then bring up the proof. Most folks are just speculating and bringing up conjectures.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I want someone out there in RF land, who wants to accommodate trans genders, to acknowledge that it's not a good idea to put naked heterosexual non-trans boys with naked heterosexual non-trans girls in view of each other. Then I want someone to recognize that some proposals would indeed lead to this inappropriate situation and some proposals would expressly allow it. Then I want someone to explain exactly what they want to see and explain how it should be enforced to ensure the dignity of all people involved and to avoid the inappropriate situation I described above.

I'm in favour of simply letting students change in the changeroom of the gender they identify with.

I don't think your concern is legitimate for a few reasons:

- I think the "what about people who pretend to be trans?" argument tries to shift the focus of the debate onto something that would happen so infrequently it isn't worth seriously considering.
- I have just as much concern about discomfort when putting a trans boy and a cis girl, or a trans girl and a cis boy, together naked in the same room as I do with putting a cis boy and a cis girl together naked in the same room.
- The threat of violence against trans kids is a much more serious issue than the issue of potential discomfort.

Mitigate your concerns if you want, but there are really only two viable answers to the question "where should trans kids change for gym?" To answer that question, we need to look at the positives and negatives of both options, not just the negatives of one.

 

[Koldo]

That's how many people are, and were I feel society could change. Being naked really isn't that big of a deal. It's how we're born, and spend a good deal of our time. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Clothing does has it's purposes and uses, but to "cover our shame" shouldn't be one of them.

It is not about shame. It is about our right to privacy. That's what clothes can be used for.

 

[Scott C.]

I'm in favour of simply letting students change in the changeroom of the gender they identify with.

I don't think your concern is legitimate for a few reasons:

- I think the "what about people who pretend to be trans?" argument tries to shift the focus of the debate onto something that would happen so infrequently it isn't worth seriously considering.
- I have just as much concern about discomfort when putting a trans boy and a cis girl, or a trans girl and a cis boy, together naked in the same room as I do with putting a cis boy and a cis girl together naked in the same room.
- The threat of violence against trans kids is a much more serious issue than the issue of potential discomfort.

Mitigate your concerns if you want, but there are really only two viable answers to the question "where should trans kids change for gym?" To answer that question, we need to look at the positives and negatives of both options, not just the negatives of one.

Would you require each child to identify their preference to administration?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Would you require each child to identify their preference to administration?

No, I wouldn't. I think that would be fraught with way more issues than the honour system.

 

[Scott C.]

No, I wouldn't. I think that would be fraught with way more issues than the honour system.

If a non-transgender boy did go into the girl's locker room for whatever reason, even if you think it would rarely happen, would you take any action against him?

I assume you would allow a trans boy, who is still physically a girl, to shower with the boys. Am I right? This strikes me as fraught with risks, more so than the girl's locker room issue. Do you see any problems here?

And trans issues aside, if you had it your way, would you eliminate all gender segregation in locker rooms and restrooms, for adults and children, everywhere? Do you find this tradition to be bad, not only because it affects trans genders, but because it is in and of itself unnecessary for all human beings?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If a non-transgender boy did go into the girl's locker room for whatever reason, even if you think it would rarely happen, would you take any action against him?

I'd take action based on behaviour. If someone is behaving inappropriately in a change room, I don't really care if it's a straight cis boy leering at girls, a lesbian cis girl leering at other girls, a gay trans boy leering at other boys, or straight cis girls making fun of another straight cis girl's body. It's all unacceptable because of the behaviour, not because of the orientation or gender identity of the people doing it.

I assume you would allow a trans boy, who is still physically a girl, to shower with the boys. Am I right? This strikes me as fraught with risks, more so than the girl's locker room issue. Do you see any problems here?

Not much more than the problems inherent in getting a bunch of kids to shower together regardless, and certainly much less of a problem than getting a trans girl to shower with boys.

And trans issues aside, if you had it your way, would you eliminate all gender segregation in locker rooms and restrooms, for adults and children, everywhere?

Probably not, no.

Do you find this tradition to be bad, not only because it affects trans genders, but because it is in and of itself unnecessary for all human beings?

I think there are worse evils. And I'm sensitive to the fact that - apparently - my wife doesn't want me to know that she poops, too.

I don't think that coming to a reasonable answer to the question of where trans people should go, given that we have gender-segregated washrooms and changerooms, necessarily has to lead to a call to abolish gender-segregated washrooms and changerooms.

 

[Acim]

So someone is really going to go through with the therapy and doctor treatments, go through all the work of changing their legal documents, tell their parents, their school, and the whole world a lie, and receive medical treatment all just to abuse the policy?

Why would they need to go through any of this to claim gender identification?

To me, that would represent someone who is clearly not seeking to abuse the policy.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why would they need to go through any of this to claim gender identification?

You have to have therapy in order to get medical treatment (according to the Standards of care, you need one letter of recommendation from a therapist for hormone therapy and two for SRS), it involves medical treatments of various sorts so you need doctors (especially an endocrinologist), and there quite a bit of paper work and time that goes into getting your legal documents changes. And if you end one school year as Billy and start the new school year as Mandy, the school is going to have to be informed in order to get their records in order.

To me, that would represent someone who is clearly not seeking to abuse the policy.

And that is exactly why we aren't going to have a problem with students abusing the policy, and that is because of all the time, money, energy, and effort that goes into transitioning from one sex to the other.

 

[Acim]

You have to have therapy in order to get medical treatment (according to the Standards of care, you need one letter of recommendation from a therapist for hormone therapy and two for SRS), it involves medical treatments of various sorts so you need doctors (especially an endocrinologist), and there quite a bit of paper work and time that goes into getting your legal documents changes. And if you end one school year as Billy and start the new school year as Mandy, the school is going to have to be informed in order to get their records in order.

And that is exactly why we aren't going to have a problem with students abusing the policy, and that is because of all the time, money, energy, and effort that goes into transitioning from one sex to the other.

So, if place where facilities are being used has all records in order, and all staff are aware of those records (for all students), then I don't see how abuse would be plausible. But if any staff is unaware, then it would be reason for that staff member to question the situation, no? To possibly disallow the student/person, otherwise, I do believe instances of abuse could be cited as reason why it is not exactly workable unless it is fully known by people responsible for managing the facilities to allow it as if there are no problems with whoever wants to be in whatever place they feel most comfortable in.

All this assumes staff is responsible / understanding, but kids and parents of kids may not be. Parents of kids are likely a non-issue for fellow students. It truly seems bizarre to frame the potential problem around staff only, when I think some (likely very few) kids would seek to abuse the situation for own purposes (likely always mischievous) and that kids would likely be engaging in harassment of some sort if policy changes to Mandy can now use girls locker room, while last year, as Billy she was uncomfortable using the guys locker room. Personally, I think staff will the least of concerns going forward. Parents of some kids (perhaps a majority) and then some kids are where I anticipate ugly problems arising. And all this assumes a transgendered young person is a sweet little angel.