A legal violation of student's dignity and privacy

[Koldo]

So what would be your proposal to handle transgender high school locker rooms?

I know this wasn't directed to me, but...

I propose individual changing stalls.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So what would be your proposal to handle transgender high school locker rooms?

To let them use the lockerroom appropriate for the gender they are living and presenting as. It's not like such a thing is putting a boy in the girl's rooms or girls in the boy's rooms.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I know this wasn't directed to me, but...

I propose individual changing stalls.

Why? It's not what the effected group wants or is requesting, but typically those who are bothered by the minority.

 

[Scott C.]

I know this wasn't directed to me, but...

I propose individual changing stalls.

If very private, yes. But expensive.

 

[Scott C.]

To let them use the lockerroom appropriate for the gender they are living and presenting as. It's not like such a thing is putting a boy in the girl's rooms or girls in the boy's rooms.

Would there be a requirement to declare yourself as transgender with school administration? Or could anyone enter no questions asked? I suspect some non-transgender boys would go to the girls locker room just to be funny or to see what would happen. Would you propose rules to prevent this?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Would there be a requirement to declare yourself as transgender with school administration? Or could anyone enter no questions asked? I suspect some non-transgender boys would go to the girls locker room just to be funny or to see what would happen. Would you propose rules to prevent this?

It's pretty much unavoidable to transition without telling your school, employer, or anyone else who handles records and files about you.
And it's likely the school, with or without having transsexual students, would punish boys who try to sneak into the girl's room, or not, depending on what actually happens and was done, but it's not really comparable because transsexuals are under medical care and receiving medical treatment, their legal documents are changed, and they are living as the sex they identify as. And especially with younger transitioners, they look no different than a cis-born member of their identified gender because if treatment is administered soon enough, it prevents the hormones of the birth-sex from having an effect on the body, and they person can have a more normal puberty of the sex they identify as, and a recent study also showed that there is a wide gap in the happiness and well being between those who transitioned earlier in life and those who waited, and those who transitioned earlier being the better-off group.

 

[Koldo]

Why? It's not what the effected group wants or is requesting, but typically those who are bothered by the minority.

Because they protect privacy.

 

[Koldo]

If very private, yes. But expensive.

Why do you think that would be expensive ?

 

[Acim]

On what basis do you believe there will be greater opportunity to bullying ?

Do you need me to repeat what my previous post (#137) explained? That would be the basis.

 

[fantome profane]

Would there be a requirement to declare yourself as transgender with school administration? Or could anyone enter no questions asked? I suspect some non-transgender boys would go to the girls locker room just to be funny or to see what would happen. Would you propose rules to prevent this?

I have no problem with the requirement to official declare yourself as transsgender with the administration. I am sure that every student has some kind of admission registration or school record that records their gender. Just allow transgender as one of the options, or just let them choose whichever of gender they wish.

But whether or not it is would be required to officially declare yourself transgender with the school administration simply entering the bathroom or locker room of the opposite sex would be interpreted as a declaration of being transsexual. I really don't think that a lot of non-transsexual people will do that. As you said when I asked you about making that declaration:

It would be more difficult that I can imagine. Trust me my heart goes out to anyone who has gender issues like this.

The point I was making when I asked you if you would make that declaration yourself when you were in high school just to get a peek into the girls bathroom is that no one who is not transgender is going to say that they are. I think you missed that point.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Because they protect privacy.

We seem to be doing fine with what we have. It could be better, but having a bunch of individual rooms is just a costly and unnecessary thing. With what we have, socially, the idea of family rooms is not a bad idea, but we must question why this segregation, and if the essence of the segregation is questionable, such as something so basic, rudimentary, and necessary as child care, then it probably isn't segregation we need to but a new way of looking at things.

 

[Acim]

It's not a bad goal to ultimately work up too, that *shock* can learn nakedness is not inherently sexual, that they can control their sexual impulses, and that they are in control of their actions, not their hormones.

How long do you estimate this goal will take (for all of humanity)?

A couple days? Helped along by presidential edict for all people to work up to that goal immediately?

 

[Koldo]

Do you need me to repeat what my previous post (#137) explained? That would be the basis.

Not at all. It is just that I don't foresee the same thing happening, which leads to me wonder if you have any extra info.

 

[Acim]

To let them use the lockerroom appropriate for the gender they are living and presenting as. It's not like such a thing is putting a boy in the girl's rooms or girls in the boy's rooms.

To me, it's exactly like that when it gets to president weighing in. Prior to that, it wasn't like that. Now the invitation is there. Or who decides what is the appropriate gender one is living and presenting as? And is this subject to change at any point? Or is it locked in at say a particular age and can never change?

 

[Scott C.]

It's pretty much unavoidable to transition without telling your school, employer, or anyone else who handles records and files about you.
And it's likely the school, with or without having transsexual students, would punish boys who try to sneak into the girl's room, or not, depending on what actually happens and was done, but it's not really comparable because transsexuals are under medical care and receiving medical treatment, their legal documents are changed, and they are living as the sex they identify as. And especially with younger transitioners, they look no different than a cis-born member of their identified gender because if treatment is administered soon enough, it prevents the hormones of the birth-sex from having an effect on the body, and they person can have a more normal puberty of the sex they identify as, and a recent study also showed that there is a wide gap in the happiness and well being between those who transitioned earlier in life and those who waited, and those who transitioned earlier being the better-off group.

But you do also want to allow trans genders who have not undergone surgery, right? It would not be good for a true trans to be called out and accused of sneaking in where they don't belong. That would be humiliating. And I am concerned that some girls would not be comfortable with someone in the locker room who still has male parts.

On the flip side, what if it's a born female who is trans male? Suppose she has not undergone surgery. Now you have someone who appears to be very female undressing with adolescent boys. I know some say that these boys should have the maturity to deal with it, but I see problems in this case.

Again, the last thing I want to do is humiliate trans gender kids. I want a solution that addresses what I consider to be real concerns for everyone.

 

[Koldo]

We seem to be doing fine with what we have. It could be better, but having a bunch of individual rooms is just a costly and unnecessary thing. With what we have, socially, the idea of family rooms is not a bad idea, but we must question why this segregation, and if the essence of the segregation is questionable, such as something so basic, rudimentary, and necessary as child care, then it probably isn't segregation we need to but a new way of looking at things.

I must disagree. Even as a cisgender heterosexual male ( in other words, an average joe ) I have always felt very uncomfortable with getting undressed in front of people I barely know. The extra privacy would benefit everyone, and it is totally worth to be paid for.

 

[Scott C.]

Why do you think that would be expensive ?

I haven't been in a school locker room in a long time and never in the girl's. I remember rows and rows of lockers with a long bench. There was no privacy. I remember showers on poles with the guys forming a circle as they shower comes out all sides. If you're going to make all of this private, it would take some remodeling and costs for the additional space per person. I may not know what I'm talking about on this point.

 

[Acim]

Not at all. It is just that I don't foresee the same thing happening, which leads to me wonder if you have any extra info.

That's fine. But I do see it occurring, and you now have basis for understanding that. I see the invitation to confront this in reasonable way occurring, while also simultaneously allowing for a whole lot of unreasonableness to occur. If we here are having debate, and we are all (from what I can tell) favorable toward transgender rights, then either everyone is just like us and we are days away from full transgender rights, with perhaps a few minor hiccups along the way, or there are other people in the world who absolutely despise transgenderism and will be having many county meetings to determine their own public policies going forward, and children of these anti-types will allow for (if not promote) a different way of handling situations as they arise that will be framed as testing the new policies going forward.

Honestly, in the public bathrooms that aren't frequented all that often, I see nothing changing from what it was a week ago, or 10 years ago. In the public bathrooms that are frequented, I see many tests possibly happening and perhaps overwhelming majority of the time, humanity does well, passes the situation with flying colors. But is never reported, because what emotionally hyped up person cares about the situations where everything is going swimmingly? But the 5% of the time it doesn't turn out well, it will now be blown up even more than it was 10 years ago, in effort to say 'this is what's wrong.' And that will lead to further decision by anti-types to be ever more vigilante in resisting what they think is inherently wrong. Thus, it now stands a chance to get a whole lot worse, before it gets better. Such that I do think all the hateful ugly discrimination that transgender people faced in the last 5000 years may be nothing compared to what some transgender people may face in the next day to 30 years, until this is all sorted out.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How long do you estimate this goal will take (for all of humanity)?

A couple days? Helped along by presidential edict for all people to work up to that goal immediately?

Change can take time, and sometimes spans generations. We may never come to an ideal society while our species exists, but that is no reason to not work towards it.

To me, it's exactly like that when it gets to president weighing in. Prior to that, it wasn't like that. Now the invitation is there. Or who decides what is the appropriate gender one is living and presenting as? And is this subject to change at any point? Or is it locked in at say a particular age and can never change?

The "appropriate gender" of someone living and presenting is is that gender. There is no other more consistent or accurate test, given every other standard and definition we try to apply end up excluding many over technicalities, faulty parts, and genetic variances and disorders. Generally, most people do identify as their birth-sex, and generally tend to behave as such, but there is so much in-between, socially and genetically, that the best way to actually determine someone's gender is to just go by what they present and/or insist on being called. Sure there are some guys that wear women's clothes and some women who wear men's clothes, but then it's just best to use good manners, and if you make a mistake, don't make a scene out of it.

 

[Scott C.]

The point I was making when I asked you if you would make that declaration yourself when you were in high school just to get a peek into the girls bathroom is that no one who is not transgender is going to say that they are. I think you missed that point.

No, I understood your point and it was well taken. If no official declaration were required, some boys would likely screw around with this. This would put administration in the position of having to figure out who to call out. I still have a concern though about someone with a boy's anatomy, although trans gender in heart, in the girl's locker room. It's not that I think the trans gender is going to sexually assault someone. It's that the girls may be very uncomfortable.