A legal violation of student's dignity and privacy

[Shadow Wolf]

And to complicate matters, I also have same sex attraction.

Same sex attractions are not an indication of being transgender. But if it is something causing you distress, you should seek a therapist for help. But I wouldn't worry that you may be transgender just because you have same-sex attractions.

 

[Brian Schuh]

I can't really comment on yours or her's situation because I don't know either of you. I don't see what SRS has to do with it. This is something you should be talking to a therapist about. You seem a bit confused.

If I am confused, how much more is a transexual confused. One must have gender confusion before one is a transgender. It is a psychiatric condition. SRS is a way to treat it if one starts off gay or lesbian. But lack of manhood in a heterosexual male can't be treated with SRS, it just makes it harder to be sexually active with the gender of one's choice. No matter how much I feel for trans people and stand for equal rights for them, I believe it to be a sickness. I am not confused. I know I can't live up to being a man, but I would be confused if I thought for a moment that that makes me a woman. If I don't make a good man, it would be impossible to be a woman either. I am just a heterosexual male with same sex attraction.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If I am confused, how much more is a transexual confused. One must have gender confusion before one is a transgender. It is a psychiatric condition. SRS is a way to treat it if one starts off gay or lesbian. But lack of manhood in a heterosexual male can't be treated with SRS, it just makes it harder to be sexually active with the gender of one's choice. No matter how much I feel for trans people and stand for equal rights for them, I believe it to be a sickness. I am not confused. I know I can't live up to being a man, but I would be confused if I thought for a moment that that makes me a woman. If I don't make a good man, it would be impossible to be a woman either. I am just a heterosexual male with same sex attraction.

I'm not confused about my gender. I always viewed myself as a guy. Transsexualism itself is not a psychiatric condition.

You sound like you're dealing with internalized homophobia and guilt over not living up to a set of expectations. I suggest you talk to a therapist about this. That is outside the scope of this thread, though. Seek a therapist.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you've gone to the trouble of having your penis removed, then go to the girls locker room. I guess that makes more sense than showing up in the boys locker room minus your part.

So if a trans girl presents as female, is known to her friends as female, but hasn't had gender reassignment surgery, she should have to change in the boy's locker room? Do you think this might create any problems? Do you think this would be putting her at risk?

By the way, are there parents who actually allow their underage children to have sex change operations? Good grief. I know people who complain about parents who let their kids join a church when they're under 18.

You have a point: I agree that the percentage of transgender teens who want to have the surgery but haven't been able to have it is probably higher than the percentage for older transgender people... hence why the "just sort them by their genitals" approach would probably cause even more problems in high school than in other places.

... to say nothing about the inherent problems with school administrators paying careful regard to high school students' genitals in the first place.

 

[Brian Schuh]

Yet no one is being forced to live in a way that is at odds with their religion. And there are many laws that already do prohibit certain religious practices, one of which is public discrimination.

That's what this entire bathroom issue is about.

The only ones who support those are those who are wanting transsexuals out of the appropriate restroom. Transsexuals tend to use the appropriate restroom, or unisex when there are concerns. Sure some might think it is their religious right to not share public spaces, but the government has already told those sorts to get over themselves numerous times, and we come out better for it.

There are more than that. Schools that receive federal funds are bound to the laws, promotion considerations, and pretty much any public place or business is bound to those laws.

And the rights of transsexuals--and because people are so afraid even cis-women now--are being infringed.

They are denying transsexuals the ability and right to use the restroom that is appropriate for them.

A minority group is being denied a basic right. That is the very definition of discrimination. It was ruled decades ago that "separate but equal" is not constitutional.

That isn't happening though. If the 14 year old starts living as a female, on puberty blocking hormones and/or estrogen, that just is not going to be a boy showing with the girls.

If you have no desire to humiliate or persecute, then don't make an issue out of. Let us go on with with our lives as we allow you to go on about yours.

Most transwomen are heterosexual, and we've already had such discussions with homosexuals. You're beating a bloody-pulped carcass of a horse, just throwing a new skin on it.

That's known for happening. Much like cis-women, trans-women are sometimes homosexual, or bisexual, or even asexual.

It's not really yet at a good stage for Female-to-Male transsexuals, but for Male-to-Female transsexuals surgery techniques are to the point that even to a gynecologist the surgery results can look indistinguishable from a post-hysterectomy vagina.

If a heterosexual male has gender confusion, sexual reassignment surgery just makes it next to impossible for him to be with a woman, and therefore is not an appropriate treatment for his gender confusion. And without that, there is no other treatment. I am not genderly confused, I know I'm a male, just one without a lot of manhood.

 

[Brian Schuh]

No, I will not get a therapist. I am comfortable in my own skin. If any of you are uncomfortable with what I say, maybe they need a therapist.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No, I will not get a therapist. I am comfortable in my own skin. If any of you are uncomfortable with what I say, maybe they need a therapist.

You don't make me uncomfortable, but you're obviously uncomfortable with yourself. I hope you do consider therapy, but that's your choice.

 

[Brian Schuh]

You don't make me uncomfortable, but you're obviously uncomfortable with yourself. I help you do consider therapy, but that's your choice.

I am very comfortable in my own skin. You are projecting your discomfort unto me. I have no need to prove my manhood. I am what I am, whether others like it or not. I've had enough sex to know I like women. I know enough to know that demasculating a male and pumping him with estrogen isn't a recipe for making a woman. You are confused if you sincerely believe one can change his/her biological sex. I am at terms with myself and don't feel a need to alter anything about my body. I like my body. I don't even need to lose weight. Get the point?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I am very comfortable in my own skin. You are projecting your discomfort unto me. I have no need to prove my manhood. I am what I am, whether others like it or not. I've had enough sex to know I like women. I know enough to know that demasculating a male and pumping him with estrogen isn't a recipe for making a woman. You are confused if you sincerely believe one can change his/her biological sex. I am at terms with myself and don't feel a need to alter anything about my body. I like my body. I don't even need to lose weight. Get the point?

I never said you were transsexual or transgender at all. You're the one questioning it. You sound like a self-hating, confused bisexual or gay man who is terrified of his homosexual attractions. That's what you need to sort out, and obviously it is a problem for you since you brought it up in the first place. Now, I'm not your therapist and I have my own overwhelming problems to deal with in life, so I don't have the patience to counsel you. Get help for your issues or don't. It's your choice. That's all I have to say.

 

[Brian Schuh]

I never said you were transsexual or transgender at all. You're the one questioning it. You sound like a self-hating, confused bisexual or gay man who is terrified of his homosexual attractions. That's what you need to sort out, and obviously it is a problem for you since you brought it up in the first place. Now, I'm not your therapist and I have my own overwhelming problems to deal with in life, so I don't have the patience to counsel you. Get help for your issues or don't. It's your choice. That's all I have to say.

I have no issues to work on, except I'm going to trial for a felony, which is personal. Many are uncomfortable when it is pointed out that in reality, no one can change their gender nor does one choose it. There is no such person as a trans woman or a trans man. There are deluded demasculated men who are asking for respect in public restrooms and I agree. But they aren't women. PERIOD. Lashing out at me for having issues, doesn't change reality, that there in actuality is no transgender, it is just polite to call people what they want to be called. Get it?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I have no issues to work on, except I'm going to trial for a felony, which is personal. Many are uncomfortable when it is pointed out that in reality, no one can change their gender nor does one choose it. There is no such person as a trans woman or a trans man. There are deluded demasculated men who are asking for respect in public restrooms and I agree. But they aren't women. PERIOD. Lashing out at me for having issues, doesn't change reality, that there in actuality is no transgender, it is just polite to call people what they want to be called. Get it?

That's just a bag of WTF. I'm done talking to you.

 

[Scott C.]

We're talking about trans girls using the appropriate facilities, not "heterosexual boys". Trans girls are not boys. As long as you keep conflating the two, we'll never be able to communicate effectively, let alone come to any agreement. No one is saying that straight boys should be using the girl's room. Why don't you get on topic?

My question was for another poster, based on his or her post, which you apparently are not following.

 

[Aštra’el]

From my perspective... I would rather see public bathroom privileges, locker room privileges, and sports participation privileges in sync with one's biological sex. The only grey areas would be when it involves hermaphrodites...

Biogically, there is currently no way for a human male to become a human female, or a human female to become a human male. True human "sex changes" currently do not exist. One might argue that your "mind" or your "soul" or your "brain patterns" are of a "gender that does not match your biological sex", but that doesn't mean you are in "the wrong body", or that you are "supposed to be" a different sex than you are, or that "nature f'd up" when you were born.

You are what you are. You should learn to appreciate it. Respect it. Take pride in it. Embrace your body and its potential. Embrace your beauty, however it has manifested... and however you have chosen to expand upon it. If you want to make yourself appear more like a different sex than what you are, do what you feel you gotta do... but understand that this "transition" you go through... it's all cosmetic. It's an illusion. The struggle is real, the experience is real... but a biological transition into another sex is not. These illusions might transcend some cultural norms, they do not transcend biology.

It is a touchy subject for many people, and understandably so. Certain people are inevitably going to find it offensive or unfair, either way you look at it, and for legitimate reasons... but the world is not fair. It is far more often more cruel and unforgiving than it is fair. As it should be.

That's just my take. Don't go crazy over it. I honestly don't really care what happens with this issue either way. I would so much rather use RF to discuss ancient deities and demon gods and archangels, instead of overly dramatic bathroom disputes...

 

[fantome profane]

I'm not talking about trans girls. I'm talking about boys who are all boy, who are 14 and who have heterosexual hormones. It is 100% natural and normal for such a boy to get excited at the thought of showering with a 14 year old girl. That is not perverted nor is it sex crazed. It's called a sex drive. It's what makes the world go round. This sex drive needs to be controlled. We establish limits. We don't allow junior high school boys and girls to shower together. This is common sense. Society has known this for a long, long time. Why some suddenly question the need or the wisdom is beyond me.

So how do we deal with a trans girl, for example? If the trans girl is still anatomically a boy, she can't shower with the girls. There must be another way to deal with this, while trying to preserve her emotions and psyche. I have no desire to humiliate or persecute such a person.

It would be more difficult that I can imagine. Trust me my heart goes out to anyone who has gender issues like this.

So you see we are not going to have a problem with heterosexual boys rushing to declare themselves transsexual just to get a peek in the girls bathroom. Believe me I know how powerful teenage hormones are. And I know how insecure teenage boys are about their sexuality and how hard they are on anyone who is different. This fantasy about non-transsexuals using is nonsense. Teenage boys are not going to lie about being transsexual.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

From my perspective... I would rather see public bathroom privileges, locker room privileges, and sports participation privileges in sync with one's biological sex. The only grey areas would be when it involves hermaphrodites...

So, hypothetically, if you discovered that you have CAIS and a Y chromosome, you think you should be made to use the men's washroom and change room?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

From my perspective... I would rather see public bathroom privileges, locker room privileges, and sports participation privileges in sync with one's biological sex. The only grey areas would be when it involves hermaphrodites...

Biogically, there is currently no way for a human male to become a human female, or a human female to become a human male. True human "sex changes" currently do not exist. One might argue that your "mind" or your "soul" or your "brain patterns" are of a "gender that does not match your biological sex", but that doesn't mean you are in "the wrong body", or that you are "supposed to be" a different sex than you are, or that "nature f'd up" when you were born.

You are what you are. You should learn to appreciate it. Respect it. Take pride in it. Embrace your body and its potential. Embrace your beauty, however it has manifested... and however you have chosen to expand upon it. If you want to make yourself appear more like a different sex than what you are, do what you feel you gotta do... but understand that this "transition" you go through... it's all cosmetic. It's an illusion. The struggle is real, the experience is real... but a biological transition into another sex is not. These illusions might transcend some cultural norms, they do not transcend biology.

It is a touchy subject for many people, and understandably so. Certain people are inevitably going to find it offensive or unfair, either way you look at it, and for legitimate reasons... but the world is not fair. It is far more often more cruel and unforgiving than it is fair. As it should be.

That's just my take. Don't go crazy over it. I honestly don't really care what happens with this issue either way. I would so much rather use RF to discuss ancient deities and demon gods and archangels, instead of overly dramatic bathroom disputes...

Garbage.

For someone who claims not to care so much about the topic, you sure do love to butt in and patronizingly attempt to lecture people on how they should view themselves and how to live their lives. You don't have the right to try to tell trans people how we should view our bodies. If I wish to redefine it in male terms, that's my right and none of your business. The changes that testosterone has made to my body aren't an "illusion" or merely "cosmetic". They're very real and biological.

If you really didn't care, feel free to stop going on and on about the topic as you have in this thread. Especially since your knowledge of it is so lacking in the first place.

 

[Acim]

On what basis do you believe that the creation of unisex bathrooms would lead to more harm to transexuals ( even in short term ) than the situation we have as of now ?

Cause if discrimination, of the hateful ugly variety, actually exists right now, then having all people share same bathroom in all public venues stemming from the politics of this issue (solely) would mean that is not really being dealt with, but is being suggested to be overcome. That stands to work wonders, and work out well in the long run, but with kids where cruel discrimination reigns supreme, it would mean it is possibly allowing private venue for greater opportunity to engage in bullying type tactics. Obviously stemming from the emotional debate that adults will have on full display while the controversy sorts itself out.

 

[Acim]

I'm not confused about my gender. I always viewed myself as a guy. Transsexualism itself is not a psychiatric condition.

You sound like you're dealing with internalized homophobia and guilt over not living up to a set of expectations. I suggest you talk to a therapist about this. That is outside the scope of this thread, though. Seek a therapist.

Agree that transsexualism is not a psychiatric condition.

I'm also not confused by the idea that I am both male and female. I identify as male, because society has been very consistent with gender identification. This political issue challenges that, for everyone. I reckon in the long run the whole gender thing will melt away in terms of how restrictive one must be with regards to own self to fit within social norms. Those norms are bound to change.

Earlier on the thread it was asked if I (or anyone) would have had issue identifying as transsexual to all my 14 year old classmates when I was 14 myself. I see that as barely relevant to current issue. It's relevant in the same way that society has ingrained this into all people since very early on. Teaching gender segregation and no one questioning that. When all the dust has settled from what is being called forth politically, it would be odd if any 14 year old has issues telling their 14 year old friends they are transsexual. Here in the transitional phase, it will be received by different people in different ways. Some of that will be to mock/test what is being called forth. Already evidence of that presented in this thread. This actually presents an open invitation to identify however you wish today, and could change tomorrow. During the transition, I fully expect that type of rationale to be exploited. After the transition, when we're seemingly all on the same page, I fully expect that to no longer be tested, or if it is, not seen as 'rocking the boat.' We'll then have umpteen dozen historical examples of it, and be either ho hum about it or deal with it in a way that our current selves are not quite able to realize just yet.

I'm noticing the thread is saying two things, 2 different political points. One is that male and female segregated bathrooms will exist going forward, and that transexual people be allowed to use one they feel is most appropriate for them, without anyone, ever discriminating against them. The other is that segregated restrooms/locker rooms will no longer exist and therefore doesn't really matter how you self identify, we'll all being using the same bathroom(s)/locker room(s).

The latter makes the most sense to me in the way I understand the issue, but is the tougher one to get to, I think, politically. I see that as having lots of bumps along the way. The other if no 'checks and balances' are in place will drive toward the unisex one, whether some people wish to accept that or not. If checks (of say I.Ds) are in place, it would tell me that segregation is still desired, seen as best policy (for now). Even then, it'll still be leading the way to unisex restrooms, but taking a more gradual approach. I do favor the I.D. approach and that is not singling anyone out. Anyone wishing to use any public restroom, shows I.D. or flashes it pass a scanner to allow entry into that restroom. Without such a check, I say plan on discrimination occurring, of the hateful ugly variety.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It is a psychiatric condition. SRS is a way to treat it if one starts off gay or lesbian.

It isn't used, ever, to "treat" homosexuals.

I know I can't live up to being a man

If a heterosexual male has gender confusion, sexual reassignment surgery just makes it next to impossible for him to be with a woman, and therefore is not an appropriate treatment for his gender confusion.

Yet quiet a few trans-women are attracted to women. I don't get where you're saying it's "next to impossible," because it does happen.

Biogically, there is currently no way for a human male to become a human female, or a human female to become a human male.

Biologically, there are so many grey areas and inbetweens that it becomes apparent that we don't have a consistent method of defining "male" and "female," save for what someone identifies and presents as.

You are what you are. You should learn to appreciate it. Respect it. Take pride in it. Embrace your body and its potential.

Yes, I am who I am. And once I learned to embrace and respect that, I went from being miserable and suicidal to being able to enjoy life.

Certain people are inevitably going to find it offensive or unfair, either way you look at it, and for legitimate reasons... but the world is not fair.

Go back 100 years ago and people offered the same sympathies and defenses for racial segregation. Guess what? That legally came to an end, we call anyone against it a racist, and we, as a collective society, know we are much better off in the long run for doing away with it and not catering to the bigotry and prejudice of racists. We offered the same sympathies and defenses for keeping women out of the work place, but we didn't cater to misogyny and we are much better off because of that. We didn't cater to people who had strong objections to inter-racial couples, and we recently to those who are against homosexual marriages to bugger off.

It is a touchy subject for many people, and understandably so. Certain people are inevitably going to find it offensive or unfair, either way you look at it, and for legitimate reasons... but the world is not fair. It is far more often more cruel and unforgiving than it is fair. As it should be.

It's a touchy subject for many because of this poison known as "tradition." And, no, the world isn't fair, but even Darwin wrote that society does not function on the principles of natural selection or survival of the fittest because we are social animals. The best we can to is to maximize and preserve rights, and the situation of barring transgender people from their appropriate restroom is to deny them rights, while allowing them to use their appropriate restroom is granting them a basic right and infringing upon the rights of no one, because, ultimately, there is no right stating that you get to pick and choose who you will share public spaces with.

 

[Brian Schuh]

From my perspective... I would rather see public bathroom privileges, locker room privileges, and sports participation privileges in sync with one's biological sex. The only grey areas would be when it involves hermaphrodites...

Biogically, there is currently no way for a human male to become a human female, or a human female to become a human male. True human "sex changes" currently do not exist. One might argue that your "mind" or your "soul" or your "brain patterns" are of a "gender that does not match your biological sex", but that doesn't mean you are in "the wrong body", or that you are "supposed to be" a different sex than you are, or that "nature f'd up" when you were born.

You are what you are. You should learn to appreciate it. Respect it. Take pride in it. Embrace your body and its potential. Embrace your beauty, however it has manifested... and however you have chosen to expand upon it. If you want to make yourself appear more like a different sex than what you are, do what you feel you gotta do... but understand that this "transition" you go through... it's all cosmetic. It's an illusion. The struggle is real, the experience is real... but a biological transition into another sex is not. These illusions might transcend some cultural norms, they do not transcend biology.

It is a touchy subject for many people, and understandably so. Certain people are inevitably going to find it offensive or unfair, either way you look at it, and for legitimate reasons... but the world is not fair. It is far more often more cruel and unforgiving than it is fair. As it should be.

That's just my take. Don't go crazy over it. I honestly don't really care what happens with this issue either way. I would so much rather use RF to discuss ancient deities and demon gods and archangels, instead of overly dramatic bathroom disputes...

Thetr

It isn't used, ever, to "treat" homosexuals.



Yet quiet a few trans-women are attracted to women. I don't get where you're saying it's "next to impossible," because it does happen.

Biologically, there are so many grey areas and inbetweens that it becomes apparent that we don't have a consistent method of defining "male" and "female," save for what someone identifies and presents as.

Yes, I am who I am. And once I learned to embrace and respect that, I went from being miserable and suicidal to being able to enjoy life.

Go back 100 years ago and people offered the same sympathies and defenses for racial segregation. Guess what? That legally came to an end, we call anyone against it a racist, and we, as a collective society, know we are much better off in the long run for doing away with it and not catering to the bigotry and prejudice of racists. We offered the same sympathies and defenses for keeping women out of the work place, but we didn't cater to misogyny and we are much better off because of that. We didn't cater to people who had strong objections to inter-racial couples, and we recently to those who are against homosexual marriages to bugger off.

It's a touchy subject for many because of this poison known as "tradition." And, no, the world isn't fair, but even Darwin wrote that society does not function on the principles of natural selection or survival of the fittest because we are social animals. The best we can to is to maximize and preserve rights, and the situation of barring transgender people from their appropriate restroom is to deny them rights, while allowing them to use their appropriate restroom is granting them a basic right and infringing upon the rights of no one, because, ultimately, there is no right stating that you get to pick and choose who you will share public spaces with.

I never said SRS (sexual reassignment surgery) was used to treat homosexuals. It is used to treat gender confusion which is a psychiatric illness.

For future reference, don't quote me if you fail to understand what I am saying.